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Just installed Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and noticed that Segoe UI is updated. Many glyphs are changed to look more like Frutiger...
It might be a difference of UI font versus a "regular" version.
BTW, can you check if it has Armenian? Last year I consulted with Microsoft on their addition of Armenian to Segoe, and I'm curious to see what ended up where.
No, Segoe UI has been updated. There's a post here:
Ah, cool. The better hinting definitely helps! Although the 24 is still slightly light for some reason.
So I need a favor: could somebody with the Consumer Preview version installed show/send* me a screengrab (large PPEM) of Segoe's Armenian charset? You could just copy-paste the following:
Աա Բբ Գգ Դդ Եե Զզ Էէ Ըը Թթ Ժժ Իի Լլ Խխ Ծծ Կկ Հհ Ձձ Ղղ Ճճ Մմ Յյ Նն Շշ Ոո Չչ Պպ Ջջ Ռռ Սս Վվ Տտ Րր Ցց Ււ Փփ Քք Օօ Ֆֆ ՝ ՜ : ՛ , - . և « ( » ) ' ՞ ՙ ՚ ՟ ﬓ ﬔ ﬕ ﬖ ﬗ
* hpapazian at gmail dot com
Wonderful! Thanks John.
As a UI font, the originals were much better designed, in terms of clarity and distinction. At least the Latin. Are the correct fonts being compared? Because originally Segoe and Segoe UI had different forms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segoe
And the (apparently) older UI forms are indeed better for UI, despite looking less good at large sizes. But that's not what it's really for.
Maybe Apple showed the way:
Style > Substance
I like Lucida better with most of it's forms, actually. Except the uppercase aye and lowercase el. Although it also isn't pretty for large sizes. Plus I'm quite happy with Lucida Grande's Hebrew, where some MS fonts go in the wrong direction in a couple places.
But I get your point. There are some sad design decisions that happen at Apple. Both companies really don't have great typography. Just some spots are rougher than others.
Regarding size and style, it is worth noting that the new Win8 Metro UI makes use of some larger sizes than previous versions of Windows. In the Metro start pane, the text is notably large, and numerals in particular feature large in mobile device displays for things like time and date displays. So the change to the design of the numerals probably relates to this, and the desire to make the forms more sensuous at the larger sizes.
Of course, what would be cool would be size and resolution dependent shapes for letters like I, so that the bars could be present at small sizes but removed at large sizes for display use. This is the sort of thing that one could have done with hints in a binary rendering, but which is difficult to control in today's subpixel and asymmetric greyscale environments.
Original forms are in the font under SS01, and as noted elsewhere the design aligns with the Windows Phone 7 version of the font. Hopefully there will be a blog post at some point that describes the various font updates in Windows 8.
@HP "Maybe Apple showed the way: Style > Substance"
Really! I know it's a silly question, and its not as if i relish the opportunity to staple your tongue to a belt sander more than once a week, but please elaborate.
@JH "Of course, what would be cool would be size and resolution dependent shapes for letters like I, so that the bars could be present at small sizes but removed at large sizes for display use."
This is still cool on the Mac OS. And I think "letters like me" is proper English.
"This is the sort of thing that one could have done with hints in a binary rendering, but which is difficult to control in today's subpixel and asymmetric greyscale environments."
You really mean rendering's gerfucked on windows. On the mac OS, it's still possible for the type designer to make serifs disappear without the user changing either OS or rendering technologies, and on the mac iOS sufficient resolution obviates the need. Compare and contrast;)
Or... recall past opinions that "competitive" rendering helps users? There is no competition between the Mac and windows or between windows and anything other than windows. I think it's pretty clear that the competition between windows XP rendering, windows Vista rendering, windows 7 rendering and windows 8 rendering... is what's "kilt" windows, with the replacement of efficient instructions like Mirp by do-it-yourself (and processor-intensive) instructions like Msrp leading the massacré.
"Hopefully there will be a blog post at some point that describes the various font updates in Windows 8."
Sounds delightful, drool-bucket ready, can't wait for 2016.
http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/segoe2.pdf (page 3)
they seem to have reverted to the original font forgery.
For legal details see
David, the sander is an educational tool, so I don't mind. All I can offer in return is a frank diagnosis of your MS allergy, which seems to lead to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" concerning a certain fruit. I don't mind a company doing damage as much as I mind intelligent people pretending it's actually doing good. When I look at Apple, I mostly see what MS was a couple of decades ago. And when it comes to our favorite topic, even if one believes that MS spends their funds on the wrong type designers, it's better than not spending any. A slick UI and shiny packaging do nothing for me; and I'm sad they do too much for too many.
David: recall past opinions that "competitive" rendering helps users
Did anyone ever state such an opinion? What I recall saying is that it was evident that MS, Apple et al were treating text rendering as an area of competition, rather than of cooperation, and that still seems to me a simple statement of fact. I never said that such competition helped users. Did someone else?
Me >"Hopefully there will be a blog post at some point that describes the various font updates in Windows 8."
DB > Sounds delightful, drool-bucket ready, can't wait for 2016.
Hopefully we'll get it out before then, and will mention Font Bureau's Windows 8 related contributions, such as the Verdana/Georgia OpenType alternates you produced along with Ascender and Matthew, and the fantastic web font demo you made for us which we showcased earlier in the year... http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/opentype/opentype-fontbureau/...
Sii: Those pages look Great! So now can we get Windows hints back? ;)
John: You're absolutely right.
Hrant: "When I look at Apple, I mostly see what MS was a couple of decades ago."
So, for reality to come into the picture, that must mean what's not included in the "mostly" is a billion decades ahead, or is a trillion?