A Master Designer: Ismar David zal

gohebrew's picture

Master Type Designer: Isamar David zal

raphaelfreeman's picture

I haven’t forgotten my manners. They are where they belong.

gohebrew's picture

>> You have, in your esteemed ignorance, compared 4 copies of the Koren font to each other to try and prove a point that you can’t prove since they are all copies (including yours!!!) <<

What point is that?

I simply compared them.

MF had not changes, except for the hei? How do you know that MF just duplicated the file, and renamed it?

Keren had many changes to the letter forms, but preserved the widths and heights.

Mine is much nicer, fully legal in the USA, and I didn't copy Koren's Bible (thank G-d for a dozen others: ArtScroll, Kol Menachel, Vagshall, Zunder Berman, etc. etc.).

When the British rains obnoxious words, then it pours!

>> The "Koren" that you posted and Koreen are the same font from the same designer (Masterfont) just under 2 names. We know that they are versions of the original because Masterfont says so! Keren we know is a copy because the designer of Keren, Shmuel Gutman, told me to my face. It’s just your amazing Crown font that somehow was created from ancient manuscripts and just by chance happens to look just like the other 3 copies.... hmmmm.... I wonder what that means. <<

gohebrew's picture

>> You have, in your esteemed ignorance, compared 4 copies of the Koren font to each other to try and prove a point that you can’t prove since they are all copies (including yours!!!) <<

What point is that?

I simply compared them.

MF had not changes, except for the hei? How do you know that MF just duplicated the file, and renamed it?

Keren had many changes to the letter forms, but preserved the widths and heights.

Mine is much nicer, fully legal in the USA, and I didn't copy Koren's Bible (thank G-d for a dozen others: ArtScroll, Kol Menachel, Vagshall, Zunder Berman, etc. etc.).

When the British rains obnoxious words, then it pours!

>> The "Koren" that you posted and Koreen are the same font from the same designer (Masterfont) just under 2 names. We know that they are versions of the original because Masterfont says so! Keren we know is a copy because the designer of Keren, Shmuel Gutman, told me to my face. It’s just your amazing Crown font that somehow was created from ancient manuscripts and just by chance happens to look just like the other 3 copies.... hmmmm.... I wonder what that means. <<

Typograph's picture

This thread started with david and now its evolving toward Koren.

What is the point of this entier discussion??????????
go to court to clearify this issue, why does this discussion have to talk place over this forum?????

gohebrew's picture

>> MF does not write that Koreen is from any specific date.
An 'old' Bible is not a disgrace. It sells well in Israel, to people of many backgrounds. I do not think that it sells well here in the USA, as there are many better products.

Name one.

<<

OK.

No one no one NO ONE heredi uses a Koren Bible.

Why?

Well, you tell me.

According to Jewish law, a Bible may not be printed without a valid commentary. Why? We Jews do not believe in the Written Torah without an Oral Torah.

The text of the Bible is the Written Torah, and the Commentary is the Oral Torah.

So, who buys the Koren Bible?

Researchers (they are few), Dat Leumi Jews (well-Orthodox Jews who have learned very little), Christians (who are constrained to buy without a commentary, some members of other Orthodox group who also have learned very little, and non-Orthodox Jews who want to have an inexpensive Jewish Bible.

I never ever saw in a dozen synagogues what Raphael claimed, that if there is a question about the accuracy of the Torah reading, people commonly look into a Koren Bible.

david h's picture

> A 'typeface design' is a set of letters in ordinary sentences each embracing a single design.

> Again, I have two sources:

> a) an old book that has a manuscript featuring a typeface design that I suggeest Eliyahu Koren used to draw his typeface design. > The book is located at RIT, in the Cary Graphic Art Library, in Rochester, NY.

Israel,

are you talking about a printed sample -- typeface design? a manuscript?

gohebrew's picture

David,

Yes, anything printed in a book, eg a manuscript printed in a book as a photograph, hand-written or not. Your sample seems like a reproduction of a page from an old book. It seems hand-written.

But a typeface design can be a machine-made text, too - in a book, or from a desktop printer.

When I revived the Romm family letter forms, what is mine? Only the computer code which produces the images.

The fact that the image of your aleph appears a particular way is your effort. But, in this case, the image is public domain.

If you make the same font, it's not copying - it's just another rendition. Do you agree?

david h's picture

> So, there never was, or is, a bold weight of Koren, or Koreen, or Keren?

Gutman designed 2 weights (regular + bold); most of the time.

Gutman knew Eliyahu Koren for a loooong time, since the old days of KKL (Jewish National Fund, Keren Kayemet LeYisrael). Eliyahu Koren was the head of the graphic dept., Later on Gutman designed his first typeface (the Bible that was published by Yedioth Ahronoth)

gohebrew's picture

I just downloaded Guttman's versions of Koren for free at:

[Links removed by a Moderator.]

His other fonts are at:

[Links removed by a Moderator.]

david h's picture

Israel,

you have to remove that link!

gohebrew's picture

It's illegal?

How do you remove it?

david h's picture

> It's illegal?

Well, let's see. I'll wait to your Crown, Ismar etc etc, buy it and give it for free -- this is OK with you, right?

> How do you remove it?

Edit your post or...

Contact Moderators for Assistance
http://typophile.com/readme

But I did that...

gohebrew's picture

Why didn't they remove the last link?

Yotam's picture

Henri Friedlaeder zal told me that my version was the closest to the original.

Can I see it somewhere?

gohebrew's picture

The typeface design, better known as Hadasa (after the Hadasa Printing School where he taught) was named at first, "Queen Esther". This is allusion to Hadasa, for the Talmud tells us that "Esther's real name is Hadasa". When I worked closely with John Hudson (who designed the nikkud and taam), "Queen Esther" was renamed after its great creator, Henri Friedlaender zal.

Mr. Friedlander told me in 1988 that my version was closest to the original drawings. The is likely due to the fact that I did not use photo-typesetting specimens. Rather, I used old magazines and newspapers as specimens. I created it by eye only, and a crude grid system. In those days, I didn't have a scanner.

david h's picture

> Rather, I used old magazines and newspapers as specimens.

Israel,

Just out of curiosity -- are you talking about religion magazines? newspapers? Yated Ne'eman? Hamodia?

gohebrew's picture

Nah, David, they were not around in the late eighties. I found them in a trash can in Tel Aviv. I think it was the magazine section.

"Great! Just want I'm looking for."

I cut out the letters of the alef-beis, and assembled them by categories. In my grid system, size wasn't an issue. I just wanted clarity.

Now, I look back and think it was impossible.

יגעת ומצאת

Yes, Henri was born in a garbage can. :)

gohebrew's picture

Maye, it was 85 86 or 87

the year the mac plus came out, and fontographer turned from 1.0 to 1.1.

gohebrew's picture

>> I haven’t forgotten my manners. They are where they belong.

London.

gohebrew's picture

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koren_Type

Koren Bible Type

Judah L. Magnes, President of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem asked Eliyahu Koren, then Korngold, to create a new font for an entirely new edition of the Hebrew Bible that he sought to publish under the University's auspices during World War II. The Bible was to be the first Bible designed, edited, printed, and bound by Jews in nearly 500 years. A design competition was held, and Korngold's font won.
The preliminary version of the font that grew out of the competition was used in an edition of the Book of Jonah issued in 1946 by the publishing house of The Hebrew University (later Magnes Press). The font was not cast for this modest publication, but rather drawn by Korngold and reproduced photographically. The font was based on the Moshe Ben-Asher Codex of the Prophets manuscript, belonging to the Karaite community in Cairo, the earliest Medieval manuscript with a colophon, written in 895 CE in Tiberius.

raphaelfreeman's picture

yes. who do you think wrote the entry!

gohebrew's picture

This article says that Koren drew the font before there was a publishing company on his name.

If so, the font was his own work, and not a work for hire.

Hence, his children do deserve to receive a royalty according to Jewish law. Yet, according to secular law, it is a public domain desisn. The current code from Masterfont may belong in part to KPJ, but not those derived from earlier drawings.

Do you agree, Raphael?

gohebrew's picture

According to KPJ, who owns the design for this?

gohebrew's picture

According to KPJ, who owns the design for this, if the design existed before KPJ?

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