A Master Designer: Ismar David zal

gohebrew's picture

Master Type Designer: Isamar David zal

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

You said on this forum that it your view Gutman's Keren was closer to Koren than Crown, and that Crown resembled old drawings that Eliyahu Koren drew as a stage in evolving to the Koren design.

Are you retracting that now?

gohebrew's picture

From your answer, KP never bought the drawings. Look at the contract. The children have rights only according to halacha.

Is Israeli law different than US Copyright law regarding inherited intellectual property rights? To my knowledge, only halacha has 'zchus hayotzer'.

gohebrew's picture

I was thinking about my statements about the great type designer Tzvi Narkiss. His popular design Narkiss Tam I claimed originated by a concentration camp victim, who was forced by the Nazis to create a poster in Yiddish for a play, and used hand-made lettering similar to Narkiss Tam. I saw a photograph of that poster, as the Nazis used it as propaganda to show that the concentration camp were cultured, and a pleasurable experience.

Until I can locate that photograph, it is correct to think merely that Tzvi Narkiss saw that photograph too, and was inspired by that lettering design.

Narkiss was in deed a great type designer, and it was unlikely that he commit such a lowly act.

gohebrew's picture

GH Crown vs. Koren MF
Which is better?

raphaelfreeman's picture

"You said on this forum that it your view Gutman's Keren was closer to Koren than Crown, and that Crown resembled old drawings that Eliyahu Koren drew as a stage in evolving to the Koren design."

No I didn't. check carefully what I said.

The Koren that you are posting is not pure Koren. The Koren that you are posting I think is Masterfont's Koreen. I'm not a lawyer but it seems you have copied his version of Koren.

Also you write, "Koren Publishing Company Purchased from the Estate of Eliyahu Koren in 20xx".

Again, incorrect. You are rewriting history with incorrect information. This never happened.

Koren Publishers Jerusalem (the correct name of the company) was formed to publish Eliyahu Koren's Tanakh in the late '50s. Eliyahu Koren was an employee of the company that was formed in his name. The owner was Mr Elie Kahan (his daughter is a director in the company now). Mr Kahan recently sold his company to the current owner a few years ago.

I'm not sure what that means legally, but I just wanted to correct a few comments that you have made.

gohebrew's picture

>> but it seems you have copied his version of Koren.

Is that slander?

Did MF create it in 1989? I think that MF copied mine.

And Koren copied some design from a few hundred years ago... הגונב מן הגנב פטור

gohebrew's picture

>> Koren Publishers Jerusalem (the correct name of the company) was formed to publish Eliyahu Koren's Tanakh in the late '50s. Eliyahu Koren was an employee of the company that was formed in his name. The owner was Mr Elie Kahan (his daughter is a director in the company now). Mr Kahan recently sold his company to the current owner a few years ago.

===

Let me get it straight.

Koren Publishers Jerusalem employed Eliyahu Koren. The company was owned by Mr Elie Kahan. It published a Tanach, featuring Eliyahu Koren's font. It expended much money in research to correct the textual deficiencies.

You claim that Koren Publishers Jerusalem owns these corrections.
Do Koren Publishers Jerusalem own the typeface as well?
Did Eliyahu Koren create his type as a 'work for hire'?
Did Eliyahu Koren work for a salary while creating the typeface during work hours?
This is the definition of 'work for hire'.

When was Koren Publishers Jerusalem sold to its present owners?
Was Mr Elie Kahan alive at the time of the sale?
Is his daughter a part owner now? Do she own more that 50%?
At what point in time, was Koren, Koreen, or Keren, digitized?

gohebrew's picture

>> The Koren that you are posting is not pure Koren. The Koren that you are posting I think is Masterfont's Koreen. I'm not a lawyer but it seems you have copied his version of Koren.

I took the Koren sample from http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/koren-mf/

I did take Koreen at http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/koreen-mf/

gohebrew's picture

Btw, Koren and Koreen seem the same to me, except MF's have two 'e's.

gohebrew's picture

3 Comparisons

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

>> "You said on this forum that it your view Gutman's Keren was closer to Koren than Crown, and that Crown resembled old drawings that Eliyahu Koren drew as a stage in evolving to the Koren design."

No I didn't. check carefully what I said. <<

Where are these comments?

What are you then trying to say?

raphaelfreeman's picture

And Koren copied some design from a few hundred years ago... הגונב מן הגנב פטור
remember you changed your mind about this and said it was from a book in a flee market. Please can you clarify and demonstrate this ancient font.

Koren Publishers Jerusalem employed Eliyahu Koren. The company was owned by Mr Elie Kahan. It published a Tanach, featuring Eliyahu Koren's font. It expended much money in research to correct the textual deficiencies.
correct. This is public information.

You claim that Koren Publishers Jerusalem owns these corrections.
what corrections?

Do Koren Publishers Jerusalem own the typeface as well?
yes.

Did Eliyahu Koren create his type as a 'work for hire'?
yes.

Did Eliyahu Koren work for a salary while creating the typeface during work hours?
This is the definition of 'work for hire'.

absolutely!

When was Koren Publishers Jerusalem sold to its present owners?
Was Mr Elie Kahan alive at the time of the sale?

yes and still is!

Is his daughter a part owner now? Do she own more that 50%?
Nope. She does not own the company. She is a salaried employee.

At what point in time, was Koren, Koreen, or Keren, digitized?
I don't know when Masterfont's version or Gutman's version was digitised. The original Tanakh version was digitised about 3 years ago when we spoke on the phone and you offered fontworld to be a distributor of the font.

I took the Koren sample from http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/koren-mf/
I did take Koreen at http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/koreen-mf/
Are you saying that you used these versions of the typeface as a basis for Crown? You wrote "I took".

Btw, Koren and Koreen seem the same to me, except MF's have two 'e's.
Yes it seems he changed the name at some point. Don't know why or when.

that Eliyahu Koren drew as a stage in evolving to the Koren design.
This was the bit that I didn't say.

Yotam's picture

The original Tanakh version was digitised about 3 years ago

Is it available to purchase anywhere?
what do you think of MF's version?

gohebrew's picture

Read carefully, Raphael.

>> remember you changed your mind about this and said it was from a book in a flee market. Please can you clarify and demonstrate this ancient font.

The bold version is from a flee market book.

I told you that the next time I'm in Rochester, NY, at RIT, I'll look for the old brook with the reproduction of ancient script.

Did KPJ purchase also Koren's own drawings? Were they drawn at his office or home?

Raphael, what did you say about the differences between Koren, Koreen, Keren, and Crown?

raphaelfreeman's picture

Yotam: Yes, you can buy it from Masterfont.

GoHebrew: We are only talking about Tanakh Bold. What font are you talking about?

KPJ didn't purchase anything. I don't understand. Oh. I see you problem. Okay.

Eliyahu Koren was an employee at a company called Koren Publishers Jerusalem Ltd. He worked at the office until he died about 10 years ago. The company never bought anything from him -- it wasn't his! It was the company's. I think this is where you are getting confused. It's not like Gutman who created fonts independently and sold them, but more like a typedesigner that works at a company called Masterfont or Adobe. The respective companies may give the designer credit, but they don't buy from the employee their designs -- they belong to the company.

More recently, the ownership of KPJ changed hands, but that is irrelevant. Does that clarify things? I designed the new Koren Sacks Siddur, but I don't own the design nor do I have copyright on it and nor do my chidren have any rights to it. But the owner of KPJ does. My name is mentioned in the siddur but it doesn't make it mine. The only difference, and I guess the confusion, is that the new owner didn't rename the company Freeman Publishers Jerusalem :-)

gohebrew's picture

So, the Koren Bible is set in Tanach Bold?
What are we debating about?

My Crown, copyright at the Library of Congress in 1989, existed prior

Koren Bible had no digitized version then, and its digitization by MF was only a few years ago.

Did Keren exist prior, too? I think, Guttman wrote 1993.

raphaelfreeman's picture

Yes, the Koren Bible is set in Tanakh Bold.

gohebrew's picture

Crown-Regular

gohebrew's picture

Book of Ruth sample

raphaelfreeman's picture

We have a funny naming convention here. The Koren face wasn’t bold or regular or anything. It was just the face. There was no bold per se. I prefered to call it Koren Tanakh. However, there is also a light version of the font. For commercial reasons, Masterfont wanted the "regular" font to be called "bold" and the light version to be called "regular" since in Israel when translated people don’t know what "light" is so much.

What you are showing on screen is what I would call Tanakh Bold and looks just like the image of the letters from that book that you bought in the flea market.

gohebrew's picture

>> What you are showing on screen is what I would call Tanakh Bold and looks just like the image of the letters from that book that you bought in the flea market.

No, my Bold is actually Bold. I will post it shortly.

So, there never was, or is, a bold weight of Koren, or Koreen, or Keren?

Again, I have two sources:

a) an old book that has a manuscript featuring a typeface design that I suggeest Eliyahu Koren used to draw his typeface design. The book is located at RIT, in the Cary Graphic Art Library, in Rochester, NY.

Then, I have also:

b) another real bold typeface based on drawings in a different book that I bought at a flea-market, and cut into pieces and scanned in 1989.

You are mixing up the two scenarios.

gohebrew's picture

GoHebrew's Bold

Typograph's picture

strangly, the type face that you found looks remarkably to koren, whats more strange is that the name souds alike "Koren"-"Crown"

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

Clearly, there is a strong resemblance between Eliyahu Koren's Koren or Tanach Bold, a typeface design from the pre-PstScript days of PostScript, Shmuel Guttman's Keren from the PostScript days of 1993, Tzvika Rosenberg' Kareen and his fairly recent digitization of KPJ' Koren, and my Crown from 1989, when none of the above existed electronically.

The naming of Crown is reflected is the typeface design itself. If you look at many of its letter forms, there are protrusions, shpitzim, or small crowns, that ornament the typeface design. They are its beauty, in my view. On account of them, I named this font, "Crown".

I see similar alliteration, as you point out. This is coincidental.

Blatant naming similar to another very similar typeface design is Le-be (is it prounched 'lee-bee' - like 'my heart' - for LeBe (pronounced 'lah-bay'), or Keren or Koreen for Koren.

Did Shmuel Guttman, Masterfont, or Eliyahu Koren, create a true bold weight?

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

Many many typefaces which I created were from lousy small and dirty originals. Scanner were crude 300 dpi device with poor 'depth perception'. Usually, I just had a book, or a photograph or an ancient document. Often the document had another 'part' in a different book.

I had a fascinating system then, that old-time punch-cutters used to create type. This was two grids, one at actual size and consisting of tracing paper. The larger grid was regular white paper with the same proportions mapped out per letter. Both grids were scanned, and super-imposed for acuracy.

Look at the various Romm Vilnas and Romm Rashis. They were created in this way too. The Linotype FrankReuhls were also.

Henri/Hadasa was made entirely from scratch, as junky scanners were a fortune in 1988. I used my trusty grid system and some old Hebrew magazines in Hadasa that I pulled out some trash can in Tel Aviv. It was set in metal type.

Henri Friedlaeder zal told me that my version was the closest to the original.

david h's picture

> an old book that has a manuscript featuring a typeface design that I suggeest Eliyahu Koren used to draw his typeface design.

Israel,

what do you mean by "typeface design"?

gohebrew's picture

A 'typeface design' is a set of letters in ordinary sentences each embracing a single design.

Many many 'typeface designs' did not have a set of large clear specimens. Many of these were provided to me by customers. They were clipping from newspapers and magazines of words. I compared and compared, and picked out what I perceived as the 'best', with very little ink spread.

If I did not love letter forms very much, I would call this a madness. I can literally spend hours on an aleph.

raphaelfreeman's picture

Keren was named such because Gutman said that he was altering Koren's design by changing some of the letters that he didn't like so much like the Shin. Gutman was recognising that the font was designed by Koren, but changed by Gutman. This was not done with permission of Koren Publishers Jerusalem.

Koreen was named such because Masterfont was creating a version of Koren. Again recognising the fact that the font was based on Koren and to this day still pays royalties on the font. I again must reiterate that the Koreen font was created with permission and approval of Koren Publishers Jerusalem and even Eliyahu Koren himself went over some of the nuances of this version of the typeface.

gohebrew's picture

When did Mr. Koren pass away, or cease his involement with his typeface design?
Did he review Gutman's design too?
What did Masterfont change? Whose shin did they use?

Did Mr. Koren ever acknowledge sources in manuscripts for his design, or did he claim that if was all his innovation?

gohebrew's picture

Ismar David's great typeface, GHB Ismar.

raphaelfreeman's picture

When did Mr. Koren pass away, or cease his involement with his typeface design?
Did he review Gutman's design too?

He passed away about 10 years ago. Of course he didn’t review Gutman’s design!!!! Gutman made the design WITHOUT Koren’s approval!!!!

What did Masterfont change? Whose shin did they use?
They changed all the letter forms.

This is all public information. Have a look at the real Koren font and then look at Koreen and you’ll see the differences in each letter. Both typefaces are available for purchase from Masterfont.

Typograph's picture

You know GoHebrew:
If you want to say that changing the Koren font is legal in the US, thats fine.
But denying Koren as the creatore of the font thats bullshit.

the way things are going, in the next 20 postd about the subject, you will start claiming that koren actually stole the design from you, and called it Koren instead of CROWN!!!

Typograph's picture

GoHebrew: Enough with the BULLSHIT, and stop bullshiting us.

gohebrew's picture

>>>
> What did Masterfont change? Whose shin did they use?
They changed all the letter forms.
<<<

You really believe that?

Your credibility as having a great eye is now in question.

gohebrew's picture

>>>
This is all public information. Have a look at the real Koren font and then look at Koreen and you’ll see the differences in each letter.
<<<

They appear extremely similar.

See above sample.

Did you even check the code of Koreen against Koren?

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

>> GoHebrew: Enough with the BULLSHIT, and stop bullshiting us.

To what are you referring?

I created most typefaces from small originals, taken from newspapers, books, and magazines. I used a crude grid system in the late '80s and early '90s.

Why is this bullshit?

gohebrew's picture

Are they very different?

gohebrew's picture

I don't see a major difference in Keren's shin.
It's a touch wider, and allows for better dagesh placement.

gohebrew's picture

The most similar are Koren and Koreen, except for the hei.

Eli,

Mr. Koren designed his famous Koren from 1943 through 1953. Right Raphael? He was extremely talented, but like most every designer, was influenced greatly by manuscripts. But he is still its creator. That's what type design is all about!

I made my Crown in 1989. I made the first digitally. There was no Keren, or no Koreen. Even Koren was in an old Bible. Nobody used the typeface design. He made it for KPJ to have an exclusive typeface design, and also no one could reprint the Koren Bible.

I don't claim that I created anything in a vacuum. I doubt if Mr. Koren would either. This is Raphael's assertion.

You sound like a kid who learns that there is no Santa Clause. "What Eliyahu Koren took his Koren design from old manuscripts?"

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

>>> "You said on this forum that it your view Gutman's Keren was closer to Koren than Crown, and that Crown resembled old drawings that Eliyahu Koren drew as a stage in evolving to the Koren design."

No I didn't. check carefully what I said.

<<<

I searched, and searched.

What did you say?

I only recall "Gutman's Keren was closer to Koren than Crown" and "Crown resembled old drawings that Eliyahu Koren drew".

If you said something else, what was it?

raphaelfreeman's picture

The most similar are Koren and Koreen, except for the hei.
er duh! they are the same font. This is Masterfont’s version of the real Koren font but with 2 different names. Of course they are the same. The hei I think was changed for a technical reason if I recall.

Mr. Koren designed his famous Koren from 1943 through 1953. Right Raphael?
I have no idea where you got your dates from. Could you please back up your assertations?
I made my Crown in 1989. I made the first digitally. There was no Keren, or no Koreen. Even Koren was in an old Bible. Nobody used the typeface design. He made it for KPJ to have an exclusive typeface design,
Again you are rewriting history. Who says there was no Koreen? Have you checked that? I’m not sure that’s true. Koren wasn’t in an "old" Bible. The Koren Bible is probably the best sold Bible in Israel and we sells tens of thousands of them every year.

He did NOT make it for Koren Publishers to have an exclusive typeface design. What on earth are you talking about. Why do you write such nonsense. This was not his motive. You never met the guy. You have no idea what you are talking about.

and also no one could reprint the Koren Bible.
Again, talking out of your hat. It was not so that nobody could reprint the Koren Bible. Why do you make such rubbish up!!!!

I don't claim that I created anything in a vacuum. I doubt if Mr. Koren would either. This is Raphael's assertion.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

You sound like a kid who learns that there is no Santa Clause. "What Eliyahu Koren took his Koren design from old manuscripts?"
again what does this mean?

You have, in your esteemed ignorance, compared 4 copies of the Koren font to each other to try and prove a point that you can’t prove since they are all copies (including yours!!!) The "Koren" that you posted and Koreen are the same font from the same designer (Masterfont) just under 2 names. We know that they are versions of the original because Masterfont says so! Keren we know is a copy because the designer of Keren, Shmuel Gutman, told me to my face. It’s just your amazing Crown font that somehow was created from ancient manuscripts and just by chance happens to look just like the other 3 copies.... hmmmm.... I wonder what that means.

For those of you interested in seeing the real Koren font (and not any of it’s knockoffs, legal or otherwise):

and in larger size (this is NOT for GoHebrew to go ahead and steal!!!!!)

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

>> The most similar are Koren and Koreen, except for the hei.

er duh! they are the same font. This is Masterfont’s version of the real Koren font but with 2 different names. Of course they are the same. The hei I think was changed for a technical reason if I recall.

<<

What do you by the "the same font"?

Are they the very same font file with two different names.

One 'e' goes to you, ans MF gets a commission.
Two 'ee's goes to MF, and you get a royalty.
But MF's hei is a bit wider, for Tzika's secret reason.

>> Masterfont’s version of the real Koren font

Was it once called a knock-off? After all, that is the definition of a knock-off.

gohebrew's picture

>> Mr. Koren designed his famous Koren from 1943 through 1953. Right Raphael?
I have no idea where you got your dates from. Could you please back up your assertations?

See http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/masterfont/koren-mf/ for 1943.

I think that you mentioned that Koren finished it in 1953, if my memory serves me well.

gohebrew's picture

>> I made my Crown in 1989. I made the first digitally. There was no Keren, or no Koreen. Even Koren was in an old Bible. Nobody used the typeface design. He made it for KPJ to have an exclusive typeface design,

Again you are rewriting history. Who says there was no Koreen? Have you checked that? I’m not sure that’s true. Koren wasn’t in an "old" Bible. The Koren Bible is probably the best sold Bible in Israel and we sells tens of thousands of them every year.

<<

MF does not write that Koreen is from any specific date.
An 'old' Bible is not a disgrace. It sells well in Israel, to people of many backgrounds. I do not think that it sells well here in the USA, as there are many better products.

Again, you should go m'chayel el choyal!

raphaelfreeman's picture

What do you by the "the same font"?
Are they the very same font file with two different names.
One 'e' goes to you, ans MF gets a commission.
Two 'ee's goes to MF, and you get a royalty.
But MF's hei is a bit wider, for Tzika's secret reason.
>> Masterfont’s version of the real Koren font
Was it once called a knock-off? After all, that is the definition of a knock-off.

Let me try again. Koren MF and Koreen MF are the same, yes the same, yes the same, yes the same font. It could be that there were some slight variations. But they were the same, let me just say this one more time, the SAME font. For both these fonts, Koren gets a royalty from Masterfont. We DO NOT sell fonts. We sell Siddurim and Tanakhim etc. Our full range of products can be found on www.korenpub.com.

Okay, I hope we have clarified that. There are no "secret reasons". Just because I don’t know about something, it doesn’t make it a secret. It makes me less knowledgeable.

The Koren font is what I posted. I think you can see quite clearly that it’s clearly different from the 4 variations that you posted. I use the term "knock-off" loosely. I have no idea what to call it. Interpretation? Copy? Version?

The only difference between the MF versions/knock-offs/interpretations/copy of the Koren font and Gutman’s and yours, is that the MF versions were done WITH PERMISSION AND INVOLVEMENT OF ELIYAHU KOREN/KOREN PUBLISHERS JERUSALEM.

I am shocked and horrified that you are using "Myfonts" as a credible source of the date of the design. It may be true, but I would need something a little more accurate than that!

gohebrew's picture

>> He did NOT make it for Koren Publishers to have an exclusive typeface design. ... This was not his motive. ...

It's not wrong to think this.

Frederick Goudy suggests in his thin book of typefaces that this is a strong reason for a company or an institution like a university or a government agency, to have a custom typeface.

First, it adds to that entity's notoriety. Second,, it distinquishes it from the others with generic typefaces. Third, if anything is printed in its name, it then can be spotted.

raphaelfreeman's picture

MF does not write that Koreen is from any specific date.
An 'old' Bible is not a disgrace. It sells well in Israel, to people of many backgrounds. I do not think that it sells well here in the USA, as there are many better products.

Name one.

raphaelfreeman's picture

It's not wrong to think this.

Yes you are. That wasn’t his reason. He wanted a Jewish Bible created by Jews in Eretz Yisrael. He created the font for the Bible and all the work was done in Jerusalem.

gohebrew's picture

>> and also no one could reprint the Koren Bible.

Again, talking out of your hat. It was not so that nobody could reprint the Koren Bible. Why do you make such rubbish up!!!!

<<

When the British move to Israel, they forget their British manners.

gohebrew's picture

>> You sound like a kid who learns that there is no Santa Clause. "What Eliyahu Koren took his Koren design from old manuscripts?"

again what does this mean?

<<

This was addressed to Eli. He was shocked by the naive notion that Mr. Koren pulled his great design out of a hat, together with a white rabbit.

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