Hebrew Grammar Distinguish at VOLT Level

Typograph's picture

Gohebrew: this is the place for you.
first will discus what glyphs are needed for such a project, and the best way of designin them.

Seconed, We will start at ground basics decisions we must make brfore we start.

then will talk about the sheva na\nach rules on by one in depth

So Gohebrew Fill free to start the discotion

Typograph's picture

What is GPos todo with GSub.
You are planing to attach the featuers to the CCMP i guess.
I think CALT would be a better choice.
Its on by default, but can be unchecked.

The diacritic positioning window effects MARK & MkMk, Not any other Sub lookups.

Changing a font is not the way.
Still you will get 3 shapes of qamats & Sheva in one block of text which might be confusing.

gohebrew's picture

Did I say GPOS?

Eli, did we begin to speak Swahili?

Everyone's saying, "What did they say?"

gohebrew's picture

>>> You are planing to attach the featuers to the CCMP i guess.
I think CALT would be a better choice.

Are you referring to using the Volt font in InDesign ME (actually I could make it work l-to-r in the domestic USA version of InDesign), or to creating it in Volt?

gohebrew's picture

>> Changing a font is not the way.

Why not? (gotcha!) It's less mouse clicks (1 versus many) - eg M to N (nothing) versus this, that and more.

gohebrew's picture

>>> Still you will get 3 shapes of qamats & Sheva in one block of text which might be confusing.

2 shapes. one outlined ant the same just hollowed. not confusing at all.

Typograph's picture

GoHebrew, You said that when the font is not doing any distinctions the the qamats\sheva is normal

But If the font is in distiction mode then it uses 2 fifferent alternates for Qamats\Sheva
an outlined Glyph and a Hollowed glyph, right!?

But if you cancal a part of the text the distinction the it goes back to the real normal glyph, in witch case, you will get in one block of text outlined shevas for Na, Hollowed For nach, and the normal sheva in the places that you cancled the distinction function.

or there is some thing i am missing.

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

The beginning of your question is untrue. I did not say:

>> GoHebrew, You said that when the font is not doing any distinctions the the qamats\sheva is normal

By the truth א מ ת EMET, matters are true, through and through, from beginning to end, and in the middle. The Hebrew word for truth, א מ ת EMET, contains three letters:
the first letter, ALEPH א ל ף , at the beginning of the word, TAF ת , at the end of the word, and MEM מ , at the end of the word.
When is it true? When matters are true, through and through, from beginning to end, and in the middle.
Look, each letter's design is standing strong.

The opposite is true of falsehood, something is false and untrue.

[end of drasha]

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

I envision creating a set of Volt fonts that teach Hebrew Grammar, based upon my OpenType font code system design that I completed a few days ago..

***** FLOW CHART *****

3 different Glyph Groups for 3 different fonts:
1. Glyph Group RB
2. Glyph Group MD
3. Glyph Group NO

GSUB Look-Ups:
Font RB:
1. ALL GENERIC NIKKUD > ALL RB NIKKUD
2. ALL GENERIC DAGESH > ALL RB DAGESH
3. ALL GENERIC METEG > ALL RB METEG
4. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL RB KAMATZ (with kamatz katan)
5. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL RB SHVAH (with shvah-na)

Font MD:
1. ALL GENERIC NIKKUD > ALL MD NIKKUD
2. ALL GENERIC DAGESH > ALL MD DAGESH
3. ALL GENERIC METEG > ALL MD METEG
4. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL MD KAMATZ (with kamatz katan)
5. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL MD SHVAH (with shvah-na)

Font NO:
1. ALL GENERIC NIKKUD > ALL NO NIKKUD - GENERIC
2. ALL GENERIC DAGESH > ALL NO DAGESH - GENERIC
3. ALL GENERIC METEG > ALL NO METEG - GENERIC
4. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL NO KAMATZ (without kamatz katan) - GENERIC
5. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL NO SHVAH (without shvah-na) - GENERIC

Naming scheme:

GH E or B RB or MD or NO

GH = GoHebrew

E = Enhanced = Dagesh, Nikkud, and Meteg only
B = Biblical = Taam too

RB = Rabbinical
MD = Modern
NO = Nothing

Example:

GH E Agnon - Bold RB
GH E Agnon - Bold MD
GH E Agnon - Bold NO

Everything under one single font name in Adobe InDesign ME:
GH E Agnon

Sub-menu:
GH E Agnon - Regular RB
GH E Agnon - Regular MD
GH E Agnon - Regular NO
GH E Agnon - Bold RB
GH E Agnon - Bold MD
GH E Agnon - Bold NO

Very tight code
All the same code basically
Only the Glyph Group contents change

Typograph's picture

> The beginning of your question is untrue. I did not say:

GoHebrew:
If thats not what you said,
would you be kind enough to explain this image you uploeded again????

And why again do you need 3 sets of glyphs

gohebrew's picture

Yes, 1 as now, 2 different.

3 Fonts:
1 for Rabbinic,
1 for Modern
1 as now

Not all in one font.

===

All you familiar with the books, "Sefer Yesod HaNikud", by Rabbi SZ Katz, or "Hebrew Primer and Grammar", by A.B. Davidson?

Typograph's picture

Oh, I See.
One font for normal nikud
One font just for sheva na qamats gadol
and another font for sheva nach\qamats qatan

Or you mean
One font for normal nikud
and one font for Sheva NA\Nach Qamats gadol\qatan Only, a font that wil not contain the normal nikud????

david h's picture

> All you familiar with the books, "Sefer Yesod HaNikud", by Rabbi SZ Katz

This is Rabbi Zalman Henna; you know that, right?

gohebrew's picture

David,

So, "Sefer Yesod HaNikud" is R' Z. Henna's book and hence an explanatiob of his views.

What books are by the Minchat Chinuch and R' Eliyahu Bachur, that do the same? Can I get them anywhere? Is it on www.HebrewBooks.org?

Who is AB Davidson? Is that explainiing modern Hebrew grammar?

david h's picture

> So, "Sefer Yesod HaNikud" is R' Z. Henna's book and hence an explanatiob of his views.

Israel,

Yes. But did you order the "combo pack" -- book + microscope? Really hard to read (the quality is bad).

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

There are 3 OT fonts with identical Volt code. Only the FontLab fonts and nikkid etc glypks differ.

1. One font is NO for Nothing - all nikud is normal.

2. One font is RB for Rabbinic - all nikud is hollow and outlined.

3. One font is MD for Modern - all nikud is hollow and outlined.

The three fonts appear in a sub-menu, under one font name in the InDesign font menu.

2 and 3 differ slight in the different GSUB look-ups - RB has a few GSUB look-ups that MD does not, and vice-versa. And in Glyph Groups too.

---

The free font set for schools will feature a new version of Hadasa, called GH Friedlander, designed by me. A commercial license for publishers will be sold. A school extended site license will be available to teachers, parents, and students to use at school for a nominal fee for #2 and #3; #1 will cost higher.

---

To summarize, there is a 3 font set.

The logic for the whole system I extrapolated from your conversion of all shvahs to shvah-nachs. I am not doing that neccessarily,l but the concept intrigued me.
And from what you said that somethings causes other things.
Hence, sequence of the GPOS look-ups was crucial.

I think kamatz (4) comes before dagesh (2).

Typograph's picture

>> I think kamatz (4) comes before dagesh (2).

What is Qamats(4) Or Dagesh(2)???
What do tou mean That the qamats comes before dagesh???

Typograph's picture

> To summarize, there is a 3 font set.

Now lets assume that the user is using the distincting version and now he want the na to be nach, yo say to use th NO version, but then he will get.
outlined for na, hollowed for nach, and the normal nikud when he cancales the grammer by using the NO version and all this in one clock of text, No????

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

>> What do you mean by 'the qamats comes before dagesh'???

I created a sequence in the GOSUB look-ups in the Volt 'program'.

For example (corrected):

1. ALL GENERIC NIKKUD > ALL RB NIKKUD
2. ALL GENERIC KAMATZ > ALL RB KAMATZ
3. ALL GENERIC DAGESH > ALL RB DAGESH
4. ALL GENERIC SHVAH > ALL RB SHVAH
5. ALL GENERIC METEG > ALL RB METEG

YOU SEE FROM THE ABOVE SQUENCE,
THE PROCESSING OF THE RULES FOR THE KAMATZ
COMES BEFORE
THE PROCESSING OF THE RULES FOR THE DAGESH,
BECAUSE SOME RULES ARE BASED ON OTHERS.

---

Does a cholam malae come about because it should be a kamatz-katan,
but when combined with that letter, it is changed to a cholam malae?

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

>> > To summarize, there is a 3 font set.

Now lets assume that the user is using the distincting version and now he want the na to be nach, yo say to use th NO version, but then he will get.
outlined for na, hollowed for nach, and the normal nikud when he cancales the grammer by using the NO version and all this in one clock of text, No????

---

I think you understand. It's one click to switch.

RB or MD to NO. end result: no grammar symbols

Typograph's picture

>THE PROCESSING OF THE RULES FOR THE KAMATZ
> COMES BEFORE THE PROCESSING OF THE RULES FOR THE DAGESH, BECAUSE SOME RULES ARE BASED ON OTHERS.

I never heard that a qamats effects the dagesh.
I did hear that a dagesh might effects the qamats.
(a qamats before dagesh hazak is qatan, except for certain cases)

Can you give me an example where the qamats effects the dagesh?????

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

Maybe I have it reversed.

I recall that you said something like that. Maybe, you said the opposite.

I reading up over the next month or two.

I'll start coding a Volt test early next year.

>>> (a qamats before dagesh hazak is qatan, except for certain cases)

So, it's both.

Sequence

kamatz katan, then dagesh hazak
GSUB: if kamatz then dagesh chazak replace kamatz katan then dagesh chazak

so i need to know what makes a dagesh kal or chazak?

Typograph's picture

> RB or MD to NO. end result: no grammar symbols
Just normal sybols correct???

so when overriding the OT (by changing fonts), you get 3 versions of Na's in one word.

gohebrew's picture

>> Just normal sybols correct???
correct.

>> so when overriding the OT (by changing fonts), you get 3 versions of Na's in one word.
Everything stays in diacritic positioning > opentype mode
just there is a one-click font change where you want you hollowed na to be a regular shvah

Typograph's picture

The rules of dagesh are realy simple.

First make all dageshs HAZAQ.

Then BEGED KEFET B'rosh Mila, you change to Kal.
A dagesh in the he you change to Kal.
A dagesh in vav you change to Kal, Unless you have another vav after it.
A dagesh in a final letter you change to Kal
A Dagesh that comes after a sheva you change to Kal

That is basicly it.

gohebrew's picture

Thank you

gohebrew's picture

Are there two forms of segol, patach, or tzeira?

Do they affect the nikkud under the letters that follow or are before?

What about a cholam maley or chaser?

gohebrew's picture

oh, i left out the kubutz and shuruk?

Typograph's picture

1. unless you wants to distinguish between patah gadol and qatan, or hiriq male and haser, you don't need 2 forms of those nikuds.

2. only as Tenua Gedola or Qetana if afetr the following letter you have a sheva.

3. Holam male and Haser is disticguished by positioning the holam in the middle of the vav or to the left of the vav

4. shuruq like ansawr #2

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

I want to distinguish between everything.

Rabbi Perlman zatzal from Australia said it well.

"What is an Avrech? (avrech is a gentleman in Hebrew.)
An Av-Rech is a composite of two words: Av and Rach.
Av is father; Rach is soft.
Av b'shanim; a father, aged in years. Rach b'chochmah; soft or weak in knowledge.
I have years, but I need more knowledge."

gohebrew's picture

In the introduction of his book, 'Sefer Yesod HaNikud'. Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Catz zatzal, better known as R' Zalman Henna, on the fourth unnumbered page, at the bottom, writes:

"I have divided this book שערים in ten 'gates' (gates refer to sections or chapters).

The first gate is in the the grammar of the letters; in it the rules of the letters are explained, and:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes.

The second gate is in the the grammar of the תנועות t'nu'ot (lit. movements); in it the rules of the:
a) התנועות הגדולות large movements,
b) התנועות קטנות small movements,
c) התנועות קלות light movements.
and their השתנותן changes, and השתמשתן uses, are explained."

Eli,

What are differences between:
a) התנועות הגדולות large movements,
b) התנועות קטנות small movements,
c) התנועות קלות light movements?

Likewise, what are the differences between:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes?

gohebrew's picture

In other words:

Please define:

a) התנועות הגדולות large movements,
b) התנועות קטנות small movements,

versus

c) התנועות קלות light movements.

We never referred to:

c) התנועות קלות light movements.

Typograph's picture

GoHebrew:
First let me say that this issue (Tenua Kala) you can never check in a volt project (although there are some indications to it)

The definition of Tenua Kala is found in some traditional books.
todey they tend to call it "SHEVA MERACHEF"

Any how, What is a Tenua Kala????

Definition:
Any Sheva that is supposed to be a Sheva Na, but there is a sheva na after it, this sheva becomes a Tenua Kala and the following Sheva is Nach.
lets take the word מלך
when in plural we say מלכים
The sheva under the first mem is a sheva na
but when we say מלכי
the this sheva (under the mem) becomes patah and the sheva under the lamed is nach.
(we cant have 2 shevas in a row at the begining of a letter)

The difference between A Tenua Ketana And Kala is
That rhe sheva nach after the tenua ketana makes the following BEGED KEFET with a dagesh.

After a tenua kala the BEGED KEFET in most cases will be without a dagesh.
This theory of Tenua Kala tries to explain why a letter after a sheva nach is without a dagesh

And i call it THEORY

This issue there is a huge debate if the there is such a thing as Tenua Kala.
some medakdekim screem against this.

however, The hebrew academy calls this SHEVA MERACHEF.

Typograph's picture

>(we cant have 2 shevas in a row at the begining of a letter)
Fix:

at the begining of a WORD

gohebrew's picture

So, you saying Eli that either kind does affect if a shva is shvah-na or shvah-nach.
Plus you say that a letter may or may not have a dagesh, depending upon it being whichever tenuah.

But you insist the tenuah-kal can not be marked. Why not? Are there rules that it follows.

Can the different types of dagesh be marked? What is the difference between them?

Typograph's picture

> But you insist the tenuah-kal can not be marked. Why not? Are there rules that it follows.

How will you know if this is because tenua kala or somthing else???
Like word on the weight of PAALAN Like
סרבן
צרכן
here its not a tenua kala
מלכות, ילדות, שכבה, קרבה
סנבלט, שעשגז, סלכה, אבגתא, ענתתיה, שעלבים, סרגון.
שרביט
all these are not tnuot kalot and have no dagesh after the sheva nach

Typograph's picture

Look, Gohebrew:

First get down normal sheva na\nach
don't get your self into this Gesheft of tenua ketana

Typograph's picture

GoHebrew Wrote
--------------------------------------------
Eli,

What are differences between:
a) התנועות הגדולות large movements,
b) התנועות קטנות small movements,
c) התנועות קלות light movements?

Likewise, what are the differences between:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes?
--------------------------------------------

my knoledge of hebrew grammer is very basic and limited.
I know what i have to know to do the VOLT project
but here you are getting into hebrew grammer in general.
I think David Hamuel is the one to ask, when it comes to hebrew grammer in general.

gohebrew's picture

Eli,

I agree with you here, that the terms in shaar rishon must be mastered before the terms in shaar shani.

That is:

"... The first gate is in the the grammar of the letters; in it the rules of the letters are explained, and:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes."

must be grasped before:

"The second gate is in the the grammar of the תנועות t'nu'ot (lit. movements); in it the rules of the:
a) התנועות הגדולות large movements,
b) התנועות קטנות small movements,
c) התנועות קלות light movements.
and their השתנותן changes, and השתמשתן uses, are explained."

To my question, Eli:

"What are the differences between:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes?"

You write:

"I know what i have to know to do the VOLT project, but here you are getting into hebrew grammer in general. I think David Hamuel is the one to ask, when it comes to hebrew grammer in general."

My purpose too is to create a versatile Volt program, whose code can be used elsewhere. Apparently, the contextual analysis Volt program that I seek to create is different than yours.

The structure of my program is clear to me, thanks to things that you and David have said. I am working now on the sequence of GSUB look-ups, as one factor causes another, and then when the second factor is substituted, it causes a third thing, and so on. As I understand better your concise words and examples and those of David, I will be able to determine the necessary sequence.

David, can you explain:

"What are the differences between:
a) תוצאהן results,
b) התחלפותן exchanges,
c) השתנותן changes?"

Typograph's picture

> The structure of my program is clear to me

How can it be clear to you before you are clear on the grammer????? I wonder.

gohebrew's picture

Structure, like a building, is first, before the walls and doors, the pipes and the electricity - last is the furniture.

Medrash: The blueprint precedes the creation.

1. Structure of Volt program
2. Sequence of GSUB look-ups, based upon understanding of #3
3. Details to go into the GSUBs, such as application of grammar rules on sequences of nikkud
4. Exception list: words: letters with nikkud (if can not be defined by grammar rules)

Is this clear?

Typograph's picture

You know gohebrew, there is acouple of things i do'nt understand about what you are trying to do.

you want to hav a font absolutly analyzing sheva na\nach qamats gadol\qatan + inserting metegs in the text.

now MIMA NAFSHACH, If your text includes teammim and metegs, why try insert them.
and if we are talking about text with nikud only, then how will you know how to put the metegs in????

You see, my project is built for the worst scenario.

the best scenario = text + teamim (Like in a tanach.)

the seconf best scenario = text without teamim but with metegs and nikud (like in a sidur.)

the worst scenario = text with plain nikud no teamim and no metegs.

now, when you say that there are absolut rules you are saying that typesetters are no longer needed, because the font can do it all, but that is absolutly not true.
ask any serious type setter like rephael freeman.

you see, that the font does its basic function on the worst scenario, then i can add functions in stylistic sets, so the user can define for the font what kind of text we are talking about. if its a text with teamim, meteg+nikud or nikud only, the i can make different assumptions. Likewise i can have different stylistic sets activating this way or the other different issues regarding the ashkenazi or sefaradi SHITOT to some degree.

Text with out MAKAFIM, I can never realy know (unless i use dictionaries) if the qamats before the last letter is a qatan, How will i know what is Be'Smichut and whats not???

Typograph's picture

but before you are clear on the grammer, i find it hard to believe that you can phisicly be clear on the program structure.

you hear for the first time a grammer concept and immediately assume that there are strict rules.

Now, RESULTS, EXCHANGES and CHANGES have nothing to do with contextual lookups.
this is phisicly to do with how one will type in the text+nikud.
if the word has a patah instead of a sheva, or segol instead of a qamats or a qamats qatan instead of a holam, that has nothing todo with VOLT, after they are correctly typed, VOLT can try analyzing different things, Volt CAN NOT decide how to MENAKED the text.

Typograph's picture

>>
---------------------------------
1. Structure of Volt program
2. Sequence of GSUB look-ups, based upon understanding of #3
3. Details to go into the GSUBs, such as application of grammar rules on sequences of nikkud
---------------------------------

Lets see.

First we know how to use VOLT
then we create GSUB lookups and only then do we fill them with details.

sounds very logical

gohebrew's picture

how we use volt?
how to tie your shoes, and raise your hand before you go wee-wee.
come on.

first you must know what volt can do and how it does it, and what it can not do.

then you define your goal within what volt can do and how.

then you draw a blueprint...a plan that volt can execute
this is what i mean by structure.
first, a building goes up with only a structure.
no pipes, no walls. no closets...

to answer your mimah nafshach, there are 5 or more similar programs and fonts for all the possibilities that you mentioned.

---

>> Now, RESULTS, EXCHANGES and CHANGES have nothing to do with contextual lookups.

mimah nefshach:
Do you know what they are to say 'nothing to do"? If so, explain them.
If you don't know what they are, how can you say 'nothing to do"?

>> you hear for the first time a grammer concept and immediately assume that there are strict rules.

Again, why not? Hebrew is super-logical. It was created by G-d. So, it must follow rules.

---

>> but before you are clear on the grammer, i find it hard to believe that you can phisicly be clear on the program structure.

Why? Any architect thinks this way. G-d thought this way when He created heaven and earth. In software development, this called systems development, or at a higher level, it is called systems analysis.

now i have but 2 or 4

GHB (font_name) Reg
GHB (font_name) Bold

B is for Biblical Hebrew = everything

GHE (font_name) Reg
GHE (font_name) Bold

E is for Enhanced = everything - taam

---

>> this is phisicly to do with how one will type in the text+nikud.
if the word has a patah instead of a sheva, or segol instead of a qamats or a qamats qatan instead of a holam, ...

What does this have to do with grammar?

Typograph's picture

listen Gohebrew:
First build a basic working project.
then post sample text, and i will comment on actual text.
like this we will know what we are talking about.

gohebrew's picture

this is a good suggestion.

start of program.

insert a shvah-na above a letter with a shvah.
but only upon every 3rd letter in a word,
if that letter has a shvah under it.

end of program.

Is this clear?

Typograph's picture

Why above the letter??? you will havt to do MkMk positionain when you have vav holam, or text with teamim.

Why not simply change the glyph from hollow to outlined?????

gohebrew's picture

First, no upper taam ever occurs with an upper shvah-na symbol.
Second, if it is a lower shvah-na symbol, it's a replacement or substitution, and not an addition.
I don't mind that at all.
But I must see that it's a replacement or substitution, I think that it needs to be encoded as an alternative glyph in Unicode in order to align as desired.

What's a MkMk positionain? As in "you will havt to do MkMk positionain when you have vav holam, or text with teamim."

Typograph's picture

First, you can have garesh muqdam with a sheva na, and on narrow letters they will clash.

second, for context checking its much easier not adding an additional glyph.

mkmk = mark to mark positioning. (its a feature tag in volt)

Typograph's picture

thinking it over again you'r right.

you can allways use any bullet as sheva na, and at the end replace the bullets with a mark above the letter, but still you will have to do additional abjusment to a mark abov the letter.

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