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So in this academic volume I'm typesetting, an author has specified a character he needs in his transcription of an original manuscript from the 1700s. The thing should look something like an uppercase "Y" rotated counterclockwise by 90 degrees, or a lambda mirrored and rotated the other way. I'm assuming this signifies something other than «the original author has written a rotated "Y"», but I'm not sure what.
It might be related to either Latin (more likely) or Greek (which occurs after it in the text as can be seen below).
I have a couple of handwritten renditions:



30 Jul 2010 — 3:39pm
Not sure what this is, but rotating a Cyrillic "У у" might do the trick.
30 Jul 2010 — 3:40pm
What's the subject of the text? The possibilities are numerous...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda
30 Jul 2010 — 4:00pm
"What's the subject of the text?"
It's a transcription of a manuscript – the notes that Johann Gottfried Herder took for an essay he published in the late 18th century, dealing with Homer and the question of his authorship of both the Iliad and the Odyssey. Also, there's an annotation a bit further on (that number 7 above) that mentions "error-free passage/section" – it's not clear to me if that might have anything directly to do with the symbol in question.
Dunno, does that help? If it's not evident from a typographic side what this should be, I will try to get more information from the author.
30 Jul 2010 — 4:38pm
May or may not be germane...
In the Unicode computer encoding standard, there are two pairs of codepoints to represent Qoppa: U+03D8/U+03D9 ("Greek Letter Archaic Koppa" and "Greek Small Letter Archaic Koppa", Ϙϙ), intended for representing the epigraphic Q-like glyph, and U+03DE/U+03DF ("Greek Letter Koppa" and "Greek Small Letter Koppa", Ϟϟ), intended for the numeric Z-like glyphs.
30 Jul 2010 — 5:55pm
John Hudson to the rescue?
30 Jul 2010 — 9:14pm
Alas, Claus, I've no clue about this.
31 Jul 2010 — 3:51am
maybe a foozled deleatur-symbol (dele in english)?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deleatur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dele
31 Jul 2010 — 8:48am
Slowly!
Would need to know more context about the source and the passages in question in order to solve this. Not only details scan but the entire passage, possibly.
1st, is it meant to be a LETTER or to be something else?
2nd, if something else, it could be a) a diacritical mark (unlikely?), b) a prescriptive mark or something the like.
It seems to be a single author’s fashion of denoting something.
– Who has written the original?
– editor-in-chief? writer’s/author’s background?
the notes that Johann Gottfried Herder …
From the handwriting shown I doubt that this is J. G. Herder’s own hand.
31 Jul 2010 — 12:35pm
Oh, no, that is not Herder's handwriting. The printed piece is a transcription of Herder's notes. That there is the corrections to my setting by the author/editor who has made the transcription.
I'm actually not sure if it's OK for me to share the entire thing here; I have asked back with the editors, and will be back soon hopefully with more information. Thanks so far, though. I was hoping maybe it'd be simple :-)
31 Jul 2010 — 2:19pm
I think these may help explain what it's for:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fu8QwQanStMC&pg=PA305
http://books.google.com/books?id=4gYBVj0eMOwC&pg=PA524
I would be inclined to relate it to the Greek Υ rather than Latin Y, since it's an Alexandrian editorial mark.
31 Jul 2010 — 3:00pm
David, fantastic!! Thank you so much.
In the first link I only see the cover? But the second one is exactly what I was looking for. Great!
I'd love to find some higher-res images. Pierron, on p. 523, does say «C'est toujours l'ypsilon couché» but I can't make out the difference between what he calls the «diple pure» and the «diple pointée» (of which I assume I'd need the former, since no explication seems to exist of the latter :-). I wonder if I'll be fine if I just rotate a "Y" (Latin or Greek). My author seems to have a cursive form of sorts in mind.
31 Jul 2010 — 3:05pm
but I can't make out the difference between what he calls the «diple pure» and the «diple pointée»
I guess it is because the dot does not show much at that resolution. Here is a wiki article on the diple
Diple
where the dots can be seen (pointé means dotted)
31 Jul 2010 — 3:06pm
Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I saw that, but figured it was a different symbol… and my brain was stuck in English and thought that pointée = pointed. :-)
31 Jul 2010 — 3:45pm
Nina, the first link worked for me. Here is the relevant passage:
A lot of Greek grammatical and editorial marks -- including the diple -- are encoded in Unicode, thanks to the efforts of the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae project. The diple periestigmene is encoded as U+2E16 in the Supplemental Punctuation block, where it is shown with the two-dot form.
31 Jul 2010 — 3:43pm
Nina, I'd assume that the «diple pure» is what you want, because that's a (half-)translation of διπλῆ καθαρά, which is what Herder wrote in the passage quoted.
1 Aug 2010 — 12:10am
You just gotta love Typophile! Impressive.
1 Aug 2010 — 11:29pm
What Florian said. Thank you, gentlemen, that was great! :-)
I'm not quite sure about the actual design of this yet – the diples in Wikipedia and the Unicode charts appear to lack the «stem» of the "Y"; plus, my author also seems to have a special/cursive form of "Y" in mind. I'm trying something simple (but with stem) now, as in the sources above, and will send this to the author for review.
2 Aug 2010 — 1:17am
John, can we be sure that the dotted-angle as encoded at 2E16 and the rotated Y count as the same character? The glyphic difference is rather striking.
If it is an editorial mark, I think it may be drawn more in the style of the font’s > or ] glyphs, rather than a letterlike Y-shape. – Printed examples known?
2 Aug 2010 — 5:55am
Andreas,
The Thesaurus linguae graecae project files can be found at the url http://escholarship.org/uc/tlg_unicode. The proposal for U+2E16 is http://escholarship.org/uc/item/3bn592k6#page-1. They call it "DOTTED RIGHT-POINTING ANGLE = DIPLE PERIESTIGMENE". Here is the justification (grab from page 11):
That is also essentially the shape found in table 2.3 of the documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/metre/metre.pdf for the LaTeX
metrepackage for classicists. The characters in that table are all drawn with tex macros using pre-existing characters; the diple simply uses the mathematical symbol for greater than, >. Here is a grab of the relevant linesOn the other hand here are a few handwritten samples taken from a facsimile of the Iliad (dated 1901), http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Stoa:text:2003.01.0009.
There is a large variation in shapes. To my eye and understanding, the intended shape looks closer to the TeX math symbol
$\succ$, corresponding to unicode U+227B, http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/227b/index.htm than to >, larger than. I am sure you could do better but TeX users (like me) usually make do with what they have got.Michel
2 Aug 2010 — 6:40am
the shape found in table 2.3
Sorry, it is subsection 3.2, page 14.
2 Aug 2010 — 7:26am
Great stuff. Here's a more baroque / Greek-letter-inspired form. Thoughts/input welcome.
2 Aug 2010 — 1:33pm
That looks like a reasonable approximation to me. I looked up some online papyri that have diplai, and found a couple of good examples that have this form:
http://163.1.169.40/gsdl/collect/POxy/index/assoc/HASH01d4/7f57ce14.dir/POxy.v0026.n2445.a.01.hires.jpg (left margin of right "page", near the top)
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/papyri/vol53/150dpi/3710.jpg (left margin of third column, about 2/3 of the way down)
The shape can also be more V-like sometimes, but the form you have is well within the ancient range, in addition to matching the Byzantine form posted by Michel above.
2 Aug 2010 — 3:37pm
Oh, nice. Thank you David. I'll submit something like this for review.
(And I do hope you had an index of sorts to search those papyri…!)
2 Aug 2010 — 8:13pm
I think I was able to find the diple on
http://163.1.169.40/gsdl/collect/POxy/index/assoc/HASH01d4/7f57ce14.dir/...
it appears to be under the ruler at about 6.6 cm or 2 9/16 inches.
3 Aug 2010 — 3:47am
Looks like the problem is officially solved: I just heard back from the author and he's very happy with this second form I posted above (the rounded one), which he says is exactly good, in keeping not only with what he had in mind but also with older publications on the subject.
Thanks again everyone – this has been a powerful demonstration of what Typophile can be, and do. I'm very grateful for your help.
3 Aug 2010 — 5:04am
I have nothing to add to this except that this has to be my favourite Typophile thread in recent memory.
3 Aug 2010 — 12:40pm
That's great news, Nina. I'm very glad this has been helpful. (PS - I didn't know what the mark was either, until Google led me to a papyrology website.)
3 Aug 2010 — 3:56pm
Great news indeed! I did not know about the character either. I learned about the LaTeX
metrepackage from Scott Pakin's comprehensive LaTeX symbol list (pdf 4.18MB) that I regularly consult when I am looking for a glyph. Google gave me the rest.3 Dec 2010 — 7:34am
Here it is in real life; the book is out now. And I've included a big fat (well actually, italic) thankyou to Typophile in the colophon!
6 Dec 2010 — 3:35pm
That looks great, Nina. It's nice to see a well-drawn diple in print!
7 Dec 2010 — 4:01am
* Congratulations. Looks very well.
And now I’d like to see the *entire* colophone ;-)
7 Dec 2010 — 11:39am
Thank you guys very much!
Colophon: Happy to oblige :-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ninastoessinger/5242023716/