As every Reading student knows Monotype UK made machine gun parts during WWII. Including facts like this in essays was a good way to annoy the lecturers. The other favorite was to mention Baskerville's commercial interest in 'Japanning'.

Si

There is a little illustrated booklet about the wartime work of Monotype UK, when the Salfords plant was adapted to making Bren guns. Precise machining is essential to both type and armaments manufacturing.

Well, at the very beginning punchcutters were recruited from the goldsmithy trade, because they had experience engraving metal. Also, since type involved melting metal, naturally there was a synergy with certain industrial fields. For example, Antwerp was famed for its forged crossbow "leaf springs", and later for making rifle parts, and subsequently for type. And come to think of it, this might be related to Caslon, since he started off by engraving rifles, and then came his derivations of Dutch type!

Baskerville:
His great success in the japanning trade basically financed his typographic efforts. And although there was no material synergy between the two that I can see, some experts on Baskerville point out the "ideological" parallels between japanning and Baskerville's style of type.

hhp

Stephenson Blake make brass electrode rule for high frequency welding.

Lanston Monotype (America) manufactured adding machines, typewriter keys and stencil punches.

The last war was interesting but you will have to wait for the book.

Well nowadays, House Industries makes alot more stuff than just type. They've even opened up a shop in London to sell it all.

I was going to say House is a modern foundry pumping out a lot of things.

Semi-related, when I was in the military, it was always said that Mattel (the toy company) made parts of the M-16. Not sure if that's true or not...

We don't actually make or endorse these,
http://www.carl-walther.de/englisch/defense/defense-53.html
but they are coincidentally named "P22".
Then again, we sold off our hot-metal division decades ago, so "foundry" is just pining for the old days.

Whoa! You've got to sell them some fonts! What a great "Fonts in Use" section that would make

Off-topic but related - but there are lots of foundries (more than say dairies or shoe shops) with a military connection.

T-26 of course - http://www.battlefield.ru/t26.html

Any others?

Si

a monotype pressure gauge on ebay uk.

http://search.ebay.co.uk/monotype_W0QQsoloctogZ9

Whenever I'm on my way to NYC, on the NJ turnpike, I pass the 'AGFA' building on the right. And I always wonder what the heck goes on in that building. It doesn't look like a font factory. More like corporate headquarters. I'm always tempted to stop just to see if they have font specimens in the lobby. Maybe a catalog or two where the security guard sits.

Looks like corporate HQ - http://www.agfaus.com/locations/

Font people are all over the place - HQ would probably be the Wilmington Mass office.

And everyone knows that Typographica makes some really fine cocktails. But we're not a foundry.

Gotta run home right now, as Stephen and I will be making drinks this evening.

Whenever I'm on my way to NYC, on the NJ turnpike, I pass the 'AGFA' building on the right. And I always wonder what the heck goes on in that building.

As far as I know, Agfa only went into the type business with its purchase of Compugraphic in 1988. But since we were talking earlier about the involvement of both the American and English Monotype companies in armament manufacturing during the two world wars, it may be appropriate to note that Agfa was a member of IG Farben conglomerate (and is today owned by Bayer, one of the other members of IG Farben). Among other war crimes for which IG Farben was found culpable were the use of concentration camp labour and production of the Zyklon B pesticide used in the gas chambers in the extermination camps. After the war, several IG Farben officials received prison sentences at the Nurenberg trials, and the conglomerate was broken up into its original constituent companies. Of these, Agfa, BASF and Bayer remain in business.

And let's not even get into Microsoft's global practices! :-/

hhp

John,

Interesting piece of history you brought up. It's a topic for another time I guess, but I admit I've been curious lately what the role/experience was of folks like Linotype or Berthold under the Nazis. The Nazis being a fairly typographic bunch (albeit narrow minded)

With regard to Linotype, it is important to remember that the identity of Linotype as a specifically German company is a relatively recent development. For most of its history, it was largely an American and British business, which established a continental presence through relations with French and German foundries. I don't know much about the activities of the major German foundries -- Berthold, Stempel, Haas -- during WWII, but I do have the very nice Berthold Hebrew type specimen from 1924.

Thank you John, for that clarification. I'm 99% sure that Linotype itself did very little Nazi business. Haas was based Basel, outside of Germany in Switzerland, so they certainly weren't using slave labor like IG Farben was. Stempel and Klingspor were still separate during the war. They, as well as L&M, Berthold, Bauer, etc. probably profited from the Nazi's typographic whims. After 1933, there was in increase in thing being printed in Fraktur type. Around 1936, all of the foundries realeasesd modern-Frakturs, which in my opinion are some of the ugliest typefaces ever designed

Dan, great post.

Erik Spiekermann pointed out something very insightful during his talk at TypeCon: he gave the example of how "regular" German people who weren't really Nazis would do things to gain favor with the regime, like a poster designer putting a little swastika on the tail of an airplane in the background. I guess you could say that sort of thing was -and is- part of "business". He also hinted (at least from my perspective) that the same sort of thing happens in the US now, in effect linking American companies -and their employees- with war crimes in a way. Certainly in all walks of life -including here on Typophile- some people are more likely to bootlick the powers that be than others.

hhp

Well, millions of Germans benefited from the NS-regime during the 1930s.* William Shire reported from Berlin in 1945 that the Germans marched around through the ruble with a defiant attitude. They weren't sorry for what their armies and government had done, they were sorry that they had lost.**

I got a shiver the other day in the school's library, after I found two "Nazi" type books. The first was a portrait of Rudolf Koch from the late 1930s. Koch died in 1934, but in 1933

Compugraphic was an arm of the CIA. The reason

What about Licko and her pottery? Could there be a bezier connection?

> http://www.linotype.com/61851/linentesterwithspecialmagnifyingglassfordtp-font.html

You should say what X it is. Looks like 4. I have a glass like that - it's plastic though - but it was free. My strongest glass is a 40x, with a light. My favorite is this classy old one that's 25x, although from a practical perspective my smallish 10x is a gem.

BTW, could you ask Linotype to make a nice, high-power, inexpensive reduction glass? And maybe even donate it to their stable of designers. :-> A reduction glass is a great tool for gauging text fonts printed on a laser printer at increased "artificial" resolution.

hhp

Good info! But again, grim. I totally forgot about Linotype's American roots. My current association of Linotype and Germany is by location alone. In fact, I am now aware that Baltimore had a big role to play in Linotype's history. How neighborly.

Incidentally, GarageFonts could conceivably fix your car. The office is located above an actual garage. Max and Boris do fine work.

By the way, who banned Fraktur? The ol' NS-regime? Why would they do that? I thought they'd be down with a typeface like Fraktur

There is some great information here, and I'm actually glad the thread got off topic. I was also wondering about German type companies during the war and what their roles were.

> who banned Fraktur?

A very catalytic question.

Typophile actually has a SIG devoted to blackletter:
http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/4077/4803.html
There you will find some solid history (although it's hard work rummaging through it all), as well as opinions rarely heard elsewhere.

To me, the long and the short of it is that:
- The Nazis first promoted it as the pure German letter style.
- When they realized it was causing legibility issues in occupied countries they banned it, blaming the Jews (of course).
- These days however blackletter is struck down as a means of furthering political purposes (in fact as a counter-weapon diametrically opposed to the original Nazi intent of promoting it), essentially by maintaining a negative graphic association with the Nazis in the contemporary mindshare. Steven Heller is perhaps the most prominent example of such sleight of hand.

It's time to bring the stately old doberman back into the sunlight.

hhp

The Nazi government banned Fraktur on January 3, 1941. At this point in history, they were winning the war, and were very concerned with their image abroad. In the occupied (and unoccupied) countries, they wanted the people to read German newspapers. Trouble was, no one could read them! They came up with a ridiculous excuse, saying the Schwabacher (the forerunner of the Fraktur style) was invented by the Jews.

The letter is quite famous, it was concidently typed up on a sheet who letterhead was stil in Fraktur. Here is a free translation from the original German (I found the German text in Kapr's book <i>Fraktur, For and History</i>):

National Socialist Party of German Workers
Represenative of the Führer
Munich and Obersalzberg,
January 3, 1941

Announcement, not for publication
For general information, I hereby report on the order of the Führer:

The so-called Gothic type style, seen as a symbol of German writing, is false. In actuallity, the so-called Gothic type can be traced to the Schwabacher-Jewish letters. Just like they later occupied the newspapers, the Jews slowly took over the the printing of books and publishing houses in Germany, from these actions stemmed the powerful influence of the Swabacher-Jewish letters.

Today, in a discussion with the Reichsleiter, Herr Amann, and Herr Adolf Müller, the Reich printing office owner, the Führer decided that the country's official type style should be Antiqua [serif typefaces]. As soon as possible, printed matter should begin to be made with these typefaces. When it is possibly, school books should also be reprinted, and in town schools and community colleges, this type of writing should be taught exclusively.

The authorities responsible will see to it that government agencies shall stop using the Schwabacher-Jewish letters: official certificates, street signs, and other such things will now only be finished in the new official typefaces.

Per order of the Führer, Reichsleiter Herr Amann will see to it that all newspapers and magazines, especially those in foreign circulation, or which should be in circulation abroad, switch over to the new official type.

signed,
M. Bormann


I shouldn't have to say that the grounds for this letter were entirely false, and fabricated! There is no link between Swabacher and Jews. I also doubt that Jews ever controlled the media, or the book industry, in Germany.

Well, I'm from Baltimore, so I try to bring up Linotype's Baltimore connection whenever possible. Otmar Mergenthaler, who founded Linotype, died in Baltimore. There is also a high school named after him there (Mergenthaler Vocational Technology Institute, or something like that. Its called Mervo now), which is in the neighborhood I grew up in.

Sorry for the cross-post, Hrant

> mine was better

Oh yeah?!
I think your German translation had too many wordspaces.

hhp

double post

Do you mean that I should have just strung all of the words together, into one long super-word?

DoyoumeanthatIshouldhavejuststrungallofthewordstogetherintoonelongsuperword?


Sorry, that doesn't work in English
I was also translating/typing as quickly as possible to try to beat anyone else to the punch!
(I've gone back into the post now and corrected some of the obvious mistakes and spelling errors, though

> corrected some of the obvious mistakes

Repeating a gripe I have with Typophile:
Email delivery of posts doesn't even notify of post edits.

So for example you could say something about something, then go back and change it to say the opposite, and anybody who relies on email delivery will think all's well.

hhp

Yeah I know. In this case, there were no contextual changes, though.

Dan,

That's a truly amazing and interesting document. I had no idea that this occured. The Nazis were weird. And Hrant, you proven to me that the Typophile community explores every corner of the world of typography, however dark and dingy it may be. Thanks.

Linotype should open up an office in Baltimore.

It would be cool if Linotype would open a US office. We could better serve our customer base that way. It is also a fabulous idea, as it would be full of historical interesting-ness

> I don't know where a German company would consider openning shop in the States.

Malibu - the land of David Hasselhoff - duh.

hhp

Surely the widely reported German love of Bay Watch must have subsided by now - which American shows currently top the ratings in Germany?

Friends, Sex and the City, and the Simpsons

American shows run at least one year behind over here. I am personally that South Park is on over here. Two different stations run it very late at night.

<i>The Nazis were weird</i>

On the face of it, yes. But in reality they were pure technocrats who used a lot of half-baked ideology to achieve their very factual aims. They invoked Higher Powers who were supposed to guide them (Hitler called it

>...but I am not going to point fingers at leaders who invoke God and a common culture in order to achieve their strategic aims.<

As an American ashamed of my county's so-called "leadership," I can point the finger and the ballot next month in hopes that this too will end.

If we do things, we do it properly.

I often feel that graphic design has played a large part in the fact that the Nazis are always considered the worst. Granted, the efficiency and systems created for such atrocoties were scary enough. But there is such a huge visual aura that surrounds the Nazis. For instance, the Soviet "police' (as they were murdering people under Stalin) as far as I know, DID NOT use a Death's Head icon on their uniforms. Is that uniquely German? This awareness of the power of symbols or graphic elements? I think that this "visual identity" certainly enhances the narrative of things like Schindler's List, or The Pianist, or even the US Holocaust Museum.

Exactly. Something I like pointing out is that one thing the Jews are very lucky to have is the swastika! A singular, distinctive visual thing that so perfectly encapsulates their [erstwhile] enemy. It's just a damn shame it used to mean the opposite in so many noble ancient cultures. Compared to the swastika, blackletter will be a piece of cake to revive in a positive light! :-/

hhp

Dude, I know that given the entire scope of human history, it might seem unfair

I just want to make one thing clear here. Some people might counter my last post saying that the swastika is a great universal, historical symbol (which is was), and that I (or others) are only arguing that it should remain in history's dustbin because it remains such a powerful movtivator for things like Zionism, which many people in the world are against.

Let's please not get into a discussion about Judaism or the Middle East. Even without the tragedy of the genocide of the Jewish people during the Holocaust, I think that enough evil could be assigned to the swastika to have it left in history's dustbin. At least 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but most likely another 5 million people died in concentration camps as well, and all in all, 50 million people died in the second world war, most of them civilians. One could easily argue that the Nazi party was responsible for a great deal of this, and is therefore evil. So, even if we leave Judaism out of the argument, the swastika is still bad. It has too much blood on it.

I really like the topics of foundries, industry, and blackletter type. I don't want to start a flame war about religion, the holocaust, racism, or any of that in this thread. If anyone would like to discuss their feelings about Zionism, the Republican party, Islam, or anything else in any of those directions, I'd glady contribute to that discussion, but in another thread.

> I don't think that we should ever "forget" about the NS-regime and what it did.

Well of course we shouldn't.
In fact we should work on "remembering" other things too, like the Armenian Genocide.

That said, I have to disagree with the essence of your stance. Even just the way you're using "evil" indicates a fundamental problem to me. But you certainly ARE right that this is all too off-topic.

hhp

While we're at it, let's throw the Hitler mustache into the dustbin as well

>I got a shiver the other day in the school's library, after I found two "Nazi" type books. The first was a portrait of Rudolf Koch from the late 1930s. Koch died in 1934, but in 1933

BTW, anybody looking for a reason to dislike Koch can do much better than any possible Nazi angle: he was a gynophobe. But I personally forgive him that (although not because I encourage it - quite the contrary).

hhp

I find Nazism as repulsive as the next person, but I think anybody talking about the swastika as a symbol of evil should do some reading about its place in Hinduism and Buddhism before they go on about it. Should religions that have used this symbol for thousands of years abandon it because somebody else misused and abused it?

http://www.khandro.net/swastika.htm
http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm

Cheers,

T

Tom, any reason* for reviving this thread now? I think Dan made the points about prior usage when he initially made the point about the symbol being beyond redemption in his mind.

Cheers, Si

*I only ask due to professional paranoia re. fonts and this symbol.

I find Nazism as repulsive as the next person…

Thomas, I guess that my point was (a year ago) that there are people who do NOT find Naziism repulsive. That it was scares me. If everybody in the world found it repulsive, then yeah OK, use the symbol again. Lots. No one would be offended.

But I’m afraid that distaste Naziism is only really limited to the West. And even there, one groups that don’t seem to hate it so much, e.g., some parts of Saxony and Brandenburg in Germany, who last year elected an obscene number of “Nationalists” into their state parliaments… these people make the same arguments, mainly that the swastika is a noble ancient symbol, blah blah blah. They also argue that the Holocaust never happened (or at least wasn’t nearly as bad as the Allied bombing of Germany, or the American campaigns to destroy American Indians, or any other human atrocity, or or or… main thing to do is change the subject so that no one notices that you are trying to come up with ways to kick all the immigrants out of the country).

> If everybody in the world found it repulsive,
> then yeah OK, use the symbol again.

But you can never please eveybody anyway!
I think you’re being too absolute.

> or the American campaigns to destroy American Indians

Well, that one thing is certainly true. The Armenian Genocide
was also worse. Why? Losing one’s homeland; no recognition;
and no reparations. It’s not just the number of dead Dan.

hhp

Well, I think that it is the treatment that lead up to the death, not just the death. And I never said that comparing the Holocaust to the Armenian Genocide wasn’t comparing Oranges-to-Oranges. I don’t support Turkish-Nationalism-Repressing-the-Past either. And I wish that Turkey (or Japan, or…) would follow post-war Germany’s example relatively good example of attempting to make reparations with its neighbors and victims.

The Holocaust may not be the “worst” human atrocity ever committed, but it probably is near the top… but can you even calculate the “top”? Anyway, it was the best documented, I think. Since the Nazis themselves (and the Allies) kept such meticulous records, the Holocaust can serve as a lesson and a warning for all future generations.

If there were any ONE symbol almost-universally associated with the Armenian Genocide, then I would encourage its disuse, too. (I’m not much of a fan of the Imperial Japanese “Rising” Sun flag… the one with the rays coming out from the disc… and I really, really, don’t like the Confederate Battleflag, or any of the other Confederate flags/emblems, like the 1st, 2nd, 3rd National, etc.).

> the Holocaust can serve as a lesson and a warning for all future generations.

I think in this environment the main thing it might be
teaching the powers that be is to keep worse records. :-/

Really, what have we learned? Dan, I’ve told you this before,
but you’ve forgotten to remember: the Armenian Genocide was used
as a justification for the Holocaust, but we haven’t even learned
to accept stuff like that, much less actually dealing with genocide!

I think that in this current situation with the US as the single
superpower, it’s the US that needs to learn things most*; and the
foremost thing is the need to learn to address the Amerind Genocide,
and make reparations. Without clearing that from its conscience the
US will continue to misbehave - it’s like a self-fulfilling thing.

* The old “with power comes responsability”.

> If there were any ONE symbol almost-universally associated with
> the Armenian Genocide, then I would encourage its disuse, too.

While I think the Jews are very lucky to have the Swastika: it gives them a strong visual to focus “negatively” on. I wish the Turks had something like that; the crescent & star is too diluted.

hhp

There you go with the Jews again. I’m not Jewish, but I “focus” on the swastika. WWII had a whole lotta victims… it was a bad show. That black-swastika-on-a-white-circle-on-a-red-field sums it all up

> That black-swastika-on-a-white-circle-on-a-red-field sums it all up

No. The way Germany was handled by the victors of WWI is much more significant.

hhp

> No. The way Germany was handled by the victors of WWI is much more significant.

No I’d go further back. I blame the Romans. What did they ever do for us? That’s the great thing about history, you can always find someone else to blame.

“I think in this environment the main thing it might be
teaching the powers that be is to keep worse records. :-/”

Or prevent people from seeing them...or searching them online.

::cough::

Blaming many people is better than demonizing individuals, which is a classic trick for misleading people into picking up pitchforks and torches.

BTW, you ignore the fact that the victors of WWII realized the mistake of their predecessors in WWI, which is why Germany is now a decent nation. In fact Israel can learn a thing or two from how Germany recovered from oppressing a minority...

hhp

>Blaming many people is better than demonizing individuals

True

American Type Founders made various models of the Kelly Cyliner Press and the Little Giant Cylinder Press.
They and most other large foundries built very fine lines of composing room furniture: stones, type cabinets etc.

Jim

As for offending people or making issues where issues shouldn’t be issues. The Japanese prime minister visited a shrine to the Japanese dead from WWII. The Chinese went bizerk canceling negotiations about a region of the sea that both countries claim (oil fields). Japans take is it was a conflict that happened over 60 years ago and they should be allowed to morn its dead. The Chinese take is Japan has never accepted the attrosities of the Japanese occupation of China and they owe China an appoligy.

1) That shrine just happens to revere 14 class-A war criminals.
2) Japan has started historically-revisionizing children’s textbooks.

Sixty years is a hiccup.

hhp

Hrant its not about WWII, this is about Oil, the shrine visit is just an excuse to piss off the Chinese. Japan sees the military expansionism of the Chinese as an economic threat to their country.

Depending on which side you are on one nations hero is another countries war criminal.

> the shrine visit is just an excuse to piss off the Chinese.

No, it’s a preamble to the re-militarization of Japan. Thanks to the the US, more countries are starting to think that Might is Right.

And why do I think China is A-OK? Because two superpowers are better than one. Three gets messy though.

> one nations hero is another countries war criminal.

That’s entirely too brutish. Unless you don’t care about mankind. Let’s hear you, Dan Weaver of New York City, say that it’s only normal for Hitler to be a hero to a nation.

hhp

I don’t think Hitler is any less evil but there are a lot of evil people even now being tried for acts against humanity. Take Sadam and his gas attacks on his enimies or the Serbian trials. These people tried to destroy an entire populace. Po Pot anyone. At one time Hitler was seen as a strong leader just like these other despots. He was seen as the restroyer of the German culture. This was after a time when Germany suffered a great depression. Its only with history that we can get a real sense of how evil they are. My point is millitary leaders have done things that their cultures have accepted as resonable that in a world view are unacceptable. There are some people that belive that the US government knew an attack on Pearl Harbor was coming and let it happen.

I’m confused. Matt asked about non-type products of foundries. This had gotten just plain silly. Some of you have attention span of a chipmunk.

Jim

>Some of you have attention span of a chipmunk

This thread started a year ago. You need to read the earlier posts to understand how this went off on a Nazi tangent.