"rv" & "ry" ligatures

tnorris's picture

I'm putting together some secondary logo fields for a healthcare system's new identity and having major problems with the "rv" and "ry" pairings. I've searched the interwebs and haven't found any standard ligatures for these. I've had to keep the kerning pretty tight because some of the names get pretty long (ie: Physical Rehabilitation), but I don't think it's too tight.

The font is DIN Next Regular, and I've gone ahead and created my own ligatures. I'm not a type designer so I thought I'd post what I've got and see if anyone has ever had this problem themselves and to get any general feedback on my solution.

Fire away! And thanks for any help.


eliason's picture

I don't think it works at all, I'm afraid. It'd be easier to read with the hole between the letters than it is with these unexpected ligatures. ("SeNices"?)

You'd be better off shortening the r and/or changing the angle of the v/y.

Nick Shinn's picture

When display type is set tight, it's often best to follow the "tight but not touching" method.

maxgraphic's picture

Here are a couple other ideas, neither of which seem to work. I think T-N-T is the only way to go here.

riccard0's picture

What about an Helvetica-style r (DIN Display does it too)?

Igor Freiberger's picture

The first alternative is an interesting solution. Why not to let it available to users through a contextual alternate (stylistic set)?

In my opinion, Vesper Pro has the best solution for this: an arm-shortened /r/ and /v/y/ with smaller serifs, which are actived through contextual alternates – actually, the same as Eliason indicated. The serif family I'm building will adopt the same.

These /rv/ry/ ligatures are possible and seems to work, although I prefer a Vesper-like solution. I just would avoid to use them as default because they are out of the typographical standard.

Another experiments with ligatures for normal text (I mean, not with a lyrical/literary flavour) are found on Quadratta with /ch/ and /ll/, digraphs largely used in Spanish.

Nick Shinn's picture

...an arm-shortened /r/ and /v/y/ with smaller serifs, which are actived through contextual alternates...

That's cheating :-)

tnorris's picture

Thanks to all for the help. Here's what I've got now. I think it's the best it's going to get, but that whitespace between the rv & ry is still driving me crazy. But it reads better now.


Nick Shinn's picture

...driving me crazy.

Get over it. There is similar space in the counters of C and S.

kentlew's picture

> but that whitespace between the rv & ry is still driving me crazy.

That (and all the other counter spaces, such as Nick mentions) is why one might not want to track DIN so tight, regardless of how long the words are.

neverblink's picture

The (new) Discovery Channel logo uses a cut-away r-arm

amateurstuff's picture

Having similar problems, just different font.
Does this look right to you? How can I improve it? Any ideas/suggestions?

Typogruffer's picture

I am no expert(so you can get the layman's point of view) but I personally really don't give a rat's butt about the white space between the characters and neither does the 90%+ people who are going to read your typeface, as long as it is legible. If your modifications cause some distractions/disturbances to the flow, then it is bad. I personally consider a font to be a disaster if I stare at a pair of characters wondering why the designer did it. Acc. to me the best part of font design is ensuring that reader is never discomforted and doesn't have to wonder why you did what you did.
P.S. I am novice and correct me if I am wrong.
P.P.S. As a typeface designer one should be concerned more about the intended audience than their pet peeves.

hrant's picture

I personally really don't give a rat's butt about the white space between the characters

You should get that fixed aysap.
But/because your PPS is very correct.

hhp

Typogruffer's picture

You should get that fixed aysap.

What I actually meant was, a person(layman) who is reading a novel/website/sign wont really care if the r and y are joined or not, as long as it is readable and doesn't cause "why is the r like that?" thought in his head.

russellm's picture

Tynne has an 'ry' ligature but not an 'rv' one, although it's not in the style the original poster was looking for.

Syndicate content Syndicate content