Palimpsest, contemporary text font

Updated description: this is a contemporary serif family I'm working on since January 2010. It was initially just for personal use, but the project grow up to embrace complete Latin, Cyrillic and Greek scripts, besides phonetic alphabets, arrows and dingbats.

It's a text font and the family is planned to have several weights in roman and italic versions. I believe it will be released in early 2013.

Goals:

1. it must be suitable for books and magazines, with more contrast than contemporary typefaces like Meta Serif, Greta Text or Stuart.

2. it must be clean and legible, with high x-height, generous counterspaces and reduced ornamental elements.

3. it must produce a strong horizontal impression, with well defined lines like the ones achieved with Guardian Text, Utopia or Charter, for example.

4. it must be adequate to academic, legal and technical texts with harmony between usual text, numeric data and acronyms.

Many glyphs have alternate designs, as |a|b|f|g|q|y|W|Ж|К|. Target sizes are 9 to 32pt. Small caps are taller than usual. Petite caps are also included. Numbers, currency symbols and related signs are available in 10 variations. Palimpsest is a codename.

Comments are very welcome.

Historic
2010.01: lowercase a-f, h-j, l-u.
2010.02: lowercase complete, marks and basic diacrits.
2010.03: uppercase complete, punctation, European languages.
2010.04: small caps, numbers, non European languages.
2010.05: figurine variations, bullets, dingbats, fine-tuning.
2010.06: many symbols and additional language support added.
2010.07: numbers and currencies in ten styles.
2010.08: general revision, mathematical operators, symbols.
2010.09: combining diacritics and precomposed glyphs.
2010.10: spacing, African languages, dingbats, fractions.
2010.11: support for many non-European languages and IPA.
2010.12: complete revision, UPM set to 2048.
2011.01: dozens of glyphs added to increase language support.
2011.02: first Cyrillic and Greek drafts.
2011.03: linguistic additions. Glyph naming revision.

Workflow
Initial lowercase design was made in Illustrator CS4.
Further development was done completely in FL Studio 5.
Final work will need FL Studio 6 due to the large number of glyphs.

AttachmentSize
Version085.pdf309.55 KB
Especials.pdf22.25 KB
Version0968.pdf271.59 KB
kevintheophile's picture

Hey Freiberger!

As you're specialist in Law, please visit my topic at my track, click in "Why do the clients have pleasure in violating the EULAs' rules?" and give me your opinions.

Your font is very elegant, legible and modern. Are you Brazilian? I know Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, they're fabulous cities. Rio de Janeiro is like San Francisco, Los Angeles and Miami and Sao Paulo is like New York and Tokyo.

Do you like soccer? I was so admired when I saw Brazil wininng very well North Korea and Cote d'Ivoire at the FIFA World Cup 2010 site.

As you are Brazilian and have the most beautiful serif font of all the serif fonts, the Brazilians and Brazil must be proud of you, and America, Europe and Latin America will recognize Brazilians are very creative in arts and culture.

Igor Freiberger's picture

James: thanks again for these valuable informations!

It seems the only case of macron-bellow-descender is |g|. My solution for this issue is to create a precombined glyph with properly postioned macron bellow and then to add a line of OT code to replace g+uni0331 with the precombined g. In some languages, to type g+uni0331 could produce the uni10E5, so the code must declare which languages to consider.

Could you help me on this indicating the languages where g+uni0331 is used? I know almost nothing about Native North American languages.

IPA is definetively an idea to follow. I'll consider your orientations and also take a close look at SIL fonts.

Important: as a lingusit, do you consider the design of characters and diacritics is good enough?

.

Kevin: thanks for your kind words, but I disagree with you about this being the most beautiful serif font here. Minion, William Caslon, Utopia, Novel, Stuart and Collis, to name few ones, are far superior than mine. But it's very nice to hear you like it.

About Brazilians, I think we are creative but still have a long way to build some typographic tradition (with some notable exceptions, as Cruz's work and the Intellecta Design from Paulo W). About the cities, I prefer smaller ones –like Curitiba and Porto Alegre. SP and Rio are very huge!

I'll answer your topic about EULA and piracy.

jcrippen's picture

Your solution to g + U+0331 sounds good to me. However, I do not suggest having U+10E5 be related to g + U+0331. The Unicode specification does not say that U+10E5 should decompose to anything. Having it be produced by some other combination would thus violate the intent of the specification.

I didn’t review all the orthographies of all the languages of the world, which would be an enormous task that I would never complete. :) But I did look at several orthographies in the Pacific Northwest of North America which I know use underscore diacritics in their orthographies. Here’s a list of those letters which occur with such diacritics:

Tlingit (Revised Popular orthography): GgKkXx
Haida (Alaskan orthography): GgKkXx
Coast Tsimshian: AaGgKk
Nisg̱aʼa: GgKkXx
Gitksan: GgKkXx
Kwakʼwala (Uʼmista orthography): AaGgKkXx
Squamish: KkXx
Thompson (Bouchard orthography): GgG̓g̓KkXx
Senchothen (SENĆOŦEN): KNWX

Dakelh (aka Carrier) also uses underscore diacritics, but because it uses them in combination with digraphs it benefits from the U+0332 Combining Low Line which is specified by Unicode as connecting between letters. Dakelh has the following with U+0332: Dz dz S s Ts ts Z z.

There may be other languages in North America where underscore diacritics are used, but the concentration of use is definitely in the Pacific Northwest.

In practice people seem to be confused between U+0331 and U+0332, with some people using the latter where they should probably be using the former instead. With time this will probably sort itself out, but it is best to support both. When one uses U+0332 I would imagine that it would be better to have the underline run through the descender of the g rather than below it, following the Unicode specification that the U+0332 connects between adjacent glyphs. This dissimilar behavior would help users realize the difference between the two diacritics, which otherwise appear quite similar.

So far, I’d say that the diacritic designs look pretty good so far. It would be helpful to see them used in the context of a few texts in various languages. You could look at the proof sheets for Huronia from Tiro Typeworks for some examples.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thank you very much, James. All the languages you list will be supported as I'll include the needed diacritics for them –especially the g+uni0331.

I'm doing the roman weights by now. There are seven regular weights and seven related bolds. So it will be a family with 14 weights. Because of this I did not post any new sample for a while.

The task is somewhat huge and I also included support for African languages which use Latin script. So (at least for the first font version) I decided not to include Cyrillic or Greek. IPA is still possible, let´s see if I have enough energy for it.

I believe within a month I'll have enough material to post samples of these weights and also more examples in many languages –something between 140 and 160 would be supported, all Latin-based scripts.

ferfolio's picture

Hi Freiberger!

Very good gob! It works great on text, congrats :)

Some things I see:

- "g" in text i find it weard that the upper ring is that small, I would make the ring bigger, becouse the white space of your letterforms are pretty big. Besides, it feels funny that the tail eye is bigger than the ring eye.

- "f" the version without serif feels weard, I think you can make the top curve more like the "j" or "t"

- "acutes" might be kind of thin and to the left, but to affirm that I'd have to see it printed.

- Like the "k"!
- "s" perfect.
- "g" alone is perfect.
- "y" love that serif!
- Nice numerals!

Congrats on all that signs,
I'll be checking them soon.

:)

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thank you very much, Fernando.

Top curve of f is one of my doubts since the beginning. I did several experiences but not used the same curve from t until now –actually, f follows a and n curves. It deserves a try.

You made a very interesting observation about g; I will also do more tests on this.

About acute and grave, I see there are two styles of positioning, both found in several fonts. Some designers made they almost centralized in relation to the letters, like in Meta. This is the more common criteria. Other prefers to dislocate the diacritic toward its own direction, as in Minion. The second approach is very characteristic in Slimbach's fonts.

Working on texts with many accented characters, as in Portuguese, I find the second style much more appropriate than the centralized one. The accent becomes more organic, with a kind of flow coherent to its direction. Accents in Meta, for example, seems rigid and heavy –especially in A, which works terribly.

Anyway, accents were revised and the sample available now still does not show the improvements I made. I'll add new samples soon and hope the acute will be a bit better.

DTY's picture

In another thread you asked about the glyph-set needs for specialized academic typesetting. Here is one area that I have some experience with.

For ancient Roman epigraphy, you need most of a basic Latin alphabet, both uppercase and lowercase with dots underneath. Most diacritical forms do not need dotted equivalents, but the vowels with acute accents do (albeit rarely). Usually this is done in roman type, but I've seen it with italic also. I think (in terms of software compatibility with the feature) this can now all be done with the combining dot under (U+0323) and mark placement, although some of them are visually equivalent to characters in the Latin Extended Additional block. You also need the ancient symbols block (U+10190 to U+1019B), the old forms of Roman numerals (U+2180 to U+2188, and probably the rest of the Roman numerals in Unicode for compatibility), and some miscellaneous letters in Latin Extended-D (U+A7FB to U+A7FF) and elsewhere (U+2132, U+214E, U+2C75, U+2C76). For at least the lower Roman numerals (I, V, X), and possibly all of them, you need two forms, with and without overscores. People also use a plethora of different shapes of brackets, including some that resemble U+02F9 and U+02FA (but functioning as brackets rather than as tone markers). Finally, it is sometimes important to note reversed letters, so a reversed (flipped right-to-left) Latin alphabet would also be useful. No doubt I'm forgetting some important things, but this gives you the highlights.

Since you aren't including Greek, you don't have to worry about all the additional glyphs you would need for ancient Greek epigraphy!

Now I honestly do not think this is worth your time from a commercial point of view. This is a very specialized topic. If you produced a typeface with really good coverage for Latin epigraphy, you might sell an extra 5 or 10 licenses, but that wouldn't pay for the time it would require to make all those glyphs. Also, for topics like ancient history publishers generally prefer typefaces that are what might be called "updated old-styles", such as Sabon and Minion, rather than more contemporary styles such as your design.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thank you very much, David. Your information is very valuable. I need to know about these glyphs in order to decide if they must be included or not –and your message helps a lot on this.

Actually, I don't think this font family would sell more than 1-2 licenses each month. There are so much options these days and it's hard to get good exposure. But I'd like to turn this font a real solution for those who will be using it. Anyway, maybe the scope needs to be a bit tighter.

I'll soon post a new sample.

froo's picture

The aogonek is far better then eogonek, which is too fat at the joint (v. 085).

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thansk again, Marcin. I changed ogonek the way you suggested. A new version is underway with hundreds of new glyphs and improvements.

andrevv's picture

Hey Igor,

Anything exciting coming up from the Palimpsest Project? This might sound strange, but I've been so excited to see this released since I first posted back in February. I really hope you publish it because I can see it being an amazing text face (it already is!). I'm hoping to use it someday to set a book of my brother's short stories. I can't pinpoint why I'm so attracted to this typeface, but I think it's very very great.

Sidenote: I noticed you're from Porto Alegre, so I have to ask... are you a fan of Internacional or Grêmio? Or not a big football fan?

Igor Freiberger's picture

Hi Andrew. Your message is a great spur to me.

Actually, the project is running normally during all this time. But I did not post new PDFs because I still need to complete the language support –and don't want to show an incomplete result.

Let me explain: I decided to make this font support all languages which use Latin script. This is a huge task as it includes all Unicode blocks for Latin, besides some IPA glyphs. There are also many glyphs outside Unicode so I did some research about less known languages and its alphabets.

As I included petite caps and swashes, each character has five glyphs –uppercase, lowercase, small caps, petite caps and swash. Thus, the project is going far away the 3,000 glyphs with support for more than 200 languages and transliterations schemas. This is still under construction.

BTW, some other parts are complete. All glyphs already made in June were revised and improved. Numbers and associeted figures Punctuation varies accordingly to case and is complete. Arrows, bullets, chess figures and Roman numerals are also ready. Ornaments, dingbats and enclosed numerals are 40% OK.

I still not decided if IPA and APA will be supported in the first version.

Thank you very much for your kind message. It will be a pleasure to know you used this font to lay out your brother's book. Hope the font plays as good as you expect.

Sidenote: my team is Internacional, reigning Champion of South America. It seems you like soccer a lot to know about our local teams!

Igor Freiberger's picture

I uploaded a new PDF sample just to give an idea about actual development.

Bendy's picture

Just a little note to say I'm very excited to see the progress here. Can't give a full crit right now but let me come back to you in a couple of weeks. Keep it up!

Jean Paul Beumer's picture

Hi Igor,
To anwser your 'hidden' message, I don't think $700 (€525) is much at all, perhaps even cheap! You've probably checked out some prices at MyFonts, but compared to, let's say Versa which contains 'only' 740 glyphs, it's still cheap. Versa is €955 ($1.275) and consists of 20 fonts, not 28.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thanks, Bendy. I'm very glad to know about your interest. In a couple of weeks I'll have interesting news to post.

Jean Paul, you found my "subliminal message"! Nice. Probably, this font family will be priced some point between US$600 and US$800 (a bit higher if I include IPA/APA). I actually think it has so many features the price could be higher, but thus it would become hard to sell licenses.

paulow's picture

Hi,Freiberger, how are you fine? I am looking forward for the great release to public your project. Between, like always, can you take a look in my first project to make a "sans-serif" here http://typophile.com/node/75053 ?

I am doing a "sans-serif" because the serif fonts are things to genius like you...

Igor Freiberger's picture

Hahaha! Nice joke, Paulo. But I think large serif families are things to mad people, not genius. :-)

I was out of type business for some days, so it took so long to post comments about your new sans. It promises a lot. I also must congratule you for the much awaited Penabico release.

Jean Paul Beumer's picture

Nice pic, Igor ;-)

Bendy's picture

Hey Igor, this is looking great. I love the way you're making such an effort to get all these uncommon glyphs correct.

I'm looking at Version 085. Here are some questions...I'm not familiar with some of these but here's what strikes me:
• The curves on cedilla look a little loose...I'd make it more like the bowl of 5. You're definitely more familiar with this one than me though.
• /hcircumflex/ did you see the thread here? It looks like the diacritic may be too close to the stem?
• /iacute/ and /jjacute/ diacritic is sliding off?
• Dots of dieresis look widely spaced.
• /ohorn/ is the horn big/dark enough?
• /Thorn/ has a different bowl to /P/?
• Bar of /Tbar/ is quite high?
• /Khook/ looks a bit hungry, like it's overstretching the arm to grab the next letter...would it be appropriate to bring in that arm slightly to rebalance?
• Similar thing with /Uhorn/; I'd shorten the right serif to bring the horn into balance, I think.
• Any chance of including yogh, hwair and wynn? I don't know why, but they might be fun to draw :)

Igor Freiberger's picture

Bendy, as usual your observations are very precise and wise. Thank you very much!

Right now, diacritics are under final revision and the problems you saw may be corrected soon. I also added variations for many diacritics, as dieresis and macron narrower for |i|j|f|l|t|, underline to match each base glyph and different sets for lc, UC, small caps and petite caps.

Khook needs additional work not to be confused with a backhoe. Hope the next version fix it. I'll also take a close look at horn.

Hwair, wynn and yogh are already in the font:

More weird glyphs: Hwair, Wynn, Yogh, Insular G, Insular F, Tresillo.

As I'm not a good designer, these glyphs took some time to draw –and I'm still not sure if they don't need an overall revision. Lowercase are also present:

The same in lowercase set.

Lowercase thorn uses p as base, but Thorn has a different build. I don't remember if Tbar suffered changes since version 0.85. This is how it is by now:

T bar and Thorn.

riccard0's picture

I’m not sure about your insular G/g. In the samples I’ve seen, the lower part would never seems so o-like. I think the shape of the hook should be more of a s, and, most of all, it should start at the (left of) centre and not a the right. But surely Mr. Everson (http://www.typophile.com/user/6281) could give more informed advice.

Bendy's picture

Cool! I was thinking the Thorn might need to have the same bowl as the P. I like the current form but it might look a bit too Cyrillic?

I also think the insular g could be tweaked. This page shows some examples near the bottom. There are also some yoghs there, I think the central beak needs to slope downwards a bit more...it's a weird shape and yours looks a bit like a 3.

Also, where did you get the idea for the Wynn to descend? I haven't seen that before.

One other possible glyph is Vend, which I hadn't heard of before getting obsessed with arcane letters.

tourdeforce's picture

Maybe "H" needs to be wider. Give it a try maybe.

Igor Freiberger's picture

I was lucky to show insular G here. Thanks to your observations I could avoid a terrible design (it was based on Unicode table, which I learnt has bad examples of insular glyphs). After your notes, it could be improved a lot.

The same with wynn. I enhanced its belly and keep the angled descent just for lowercase. There are some fonts with this kind of descender, but the uppercase seems better with the traditional straight serifs.

Yogh is still 3-like, but its much more inclinated now. Top segment is not straight anymore. Other glyphs were also updated. Some are in this small sample:

Insular G and other unusual glyphs, updated version.

About vend, it will not be included in version 1.0. The mediavalist segments of Unicode blocks were left for a future version. Although there are lots of very interesting glyphs there, it's so much work and I want this font not to be an opus posthumous. ;-)

So, thank you very much, Riccardo and Bendy.

Dusan (tourdeforce), thanks for you point about H. I narrowed it in a recent revision but it may gone very far and now needs a small adjust. I'll do text print tests to be sure how would be the ideal size.

Just to add one more sample, these are the lowercase alternates in definitive design (well, sort of):

Bendy's picture

>I want this font not to be an opus posthumous. ;-)

Hah, yes, that's a good point.

About the alternates...the /b/ and /q/ with spurs especially are very nice and if you're running out of space I think you could be more selective. I guess it's a matter of testing in body text at different sizes.

Andreas Stötzner's picture

… Unicode table, which I learnt has bad examples of insular glyphs

Unicode tables have much more bad glyphs than just insular ones.
“We encode characters, not glyphs” :-)

I second Ricardo’s comment on the insular g’s bowl. The capital of it is much more better by now. Mind the weight distribution.

vend: the bowl may be more slender.
insular f: still a bit narrow
tresillo: upper part a bit stiff… look at c.
That crossing at the Tresillo disturbes me. I just gave it the glyph of 0190.
Thorn: well, a more P-like bowl may be better in the end.
uncial T: weight distr. of the round part: the gravity might lay a good deal lower.
Capital Yogh looks quite good.

Finally allow me a general remark. Have you ever done writing exercise with a broad nib pen …? If not, give it a try. You’ll find it will help *tremendously* with candidates such as insular whatsoevers, tresillos, quirkstrokethroughs, weirdturnarounds …

Enjoy it.

1996type's picture

I really like the overall feel of the font. Seemsa like this really has a great deal of potential, however, there are a number of things that bother me. I'm no pro, so feel free to ignore my comments. Although I see you're already pretty far in the design process I noticed a couple of things in the lc, which I want to share.

The curve at the top of the bowl in /a/ is not smooth. It looks as if there's a straight part in it. I think it will look better if you take away the in-between nodes and extend the control points at the top towards the left.

The c seems about to fall to the right. I think you should higher the top-right part and maybe also move it to the left a bit.

I think the finial in /e/ is too short.

The f is original, but adding a serif to the top would probably be better for legibility

The eye of g seems a little too dark to me

The top of t looks fragile. Perhaps move the node at the very top to the left?

The serifs on the inside of x are probably too 'smooth' to stop ink from filling the space between the serifs and the diagonal strokes. The serifs on the capital X look better to me.

I'm not sure about the flat bottoms of v w V W. It looks as though they were cut off. I don't think there are many serif typefaces with v's and w's like yours.

Anyway, it's still a great typeface. Good luck!

Igor Freiberger's picture

Firstly, I must apologize for the lack of updates and answers –especially to Bendy, Andreas and Jasper, who kindly made observations which I'm answering just now.

Bendy: you're right, I ran out of space. Even using mark and mkmk OpenType features to build up diacritical combinations, I'll need more room than FL Studio 5 can give me. But the 6,000 glyph limit will be increased in its next version –and probably FL6 will be release much before I could complete the font. So, no problem here.

Andreas: I carefully considered all your points and hope the glyphs are better now. Your suggestion about pen exercises is very good. I plan to do this to improve curves and flows –by now, the font is designed directly on screen, without any paper/pen support.

Jasper: I really appreciate your detailed and insightful critique. Of course, I did not ignore any comment in this thread, all them helped me a lot. Some problems you noticed were already fixed and many others were addressed.

Top of |a| was actually not flat, but the curve was so subtle it may cause this impression. Now it's sligth rounder and the same treatment was applied to some other glyphs, as |Ɛ|Ʒ|ɛ|. There are also improvements in |g|t|f|c|e|C|G|O|, not to mention all the other Latin Blocks (Extended A, B, C and D).

I just disagree about the flat bottom of |V|W|v|w|. This is quite common and there is a number of fonts with this approach –Bembo, Miller, Arno, Utopia, Freight, Glosa, Le Monde, Orbi, Kepler, Tabac, Tanger, Andron and so on. It's more typical to modern and clarendon styles, and less common between garaldes and venetians. Anyway, I improved a bit the colour of |w|.

Some samples to follow:

Improved lowercase glyphs.

Improved extended Latin glyphs.

Improved glyphs with hooks.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Ogoneks are tricky. Although a good amount of instructions about ogonek design is available (especially from Adam Twardoch), each ogonek is a particular issue as the connection with base letter is almost always different. Another problem is Native North American languages, where the preference is to link ogonek to bottom middle of |a| and |u|.

While most ogoneks work well, lowercase y with ogonek is terrible. Unhappily, I don't see any solution to improve this awful combination.

All this was considered in this set of ogoneks:

Ogoneks.

Cedillas are much simpler than ogoneks when you work with the usual |C|S| with cedilla. But to make M with cedilla I needed a special connection. And there are letters like N or H with cedilla, without a base where to hang the diacritic.

Usual solution for Hcedilla and others is to center the diacritic with the first stem of the base letter. I tested this and didn't got satisfied. In this beta version my provisory solution is to connect them to the right serif of first stem.

Not sure if this is better. I'd like very much any feedback on this:

Cedillas and horns.

Horns. As you can see above, in the last line there are |o|u| with horn. I'm glad with this design as it keeps both horns at the same height and they connect smoothly with the base letter. Horn size also seems adequate and legible.

Slashes. As discussed in another thread, in some less known languages |a|c|e|t| can receive a slash as a diacritic. I was initially trying to use the same slash from |Ø|ø|. Later, I learnt the diacritical slash is different from that used in Ø: it's steeper and goes beyond height and base lines.

These glyphs are far from beautiful, but this diacritic does not leaves much room for a nice design:

Slashed letters.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Main new at this moment is the inclusion of Cyrillic and Greek scripts –both in early draft by now. Cyrillic gone further as it's much more natural to me (and I understand some words of Russian, but no one of Greek).

I cannot achieve a good terminal for the first leg of |Л|Љ|. Also note this partial sample shows alternates De and El for Bulgarian. About Greek, I still need to develop its ductus to design good lowercases:

First Cyrillic draft (partial set).

First Greek draft (partial set).

Just for fun, a sample of dingbats and arrows:

Some dingbats and arrows.

riccard0's picture

For purely aesthetic (and “flowing”) reasons, I would see cedillas better hanging from the left serif of the right stem (especially on letters like n).
Also, for y-ogonek, either you create a right serif from which the ogonek can hang, or make it hang from the left, balance be damned! ;-)

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thanks, Riccardo.

I guess cedilla is not used at right stem because |K|k|R| would need another kind of link. Anyway, I cannot find further info about this.

There is also the possibility to use hanging centered cedilla, a solution adopted in some fonts. I dislike it: these cedillas may be easily confused with comma accent at small sizes –not to mention the apparent nonsense to have a linked diacritic hanging from the air.

More samples:

Comparison with cedillas at center of left stem.

About y with ogonek, this glyph really bother me. I did more tries. None appear to be good, but the fourth one seems prefereable:

A sad necessity: ugly y with ogoneks.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Here is a better sample to evaluate Cyrillic |D| and |L|:

Sample with Cyrillic |D| and |L|.

kevintheophile's picture

Freiberger, I prefer the second H cedilla (second link). I also prefer the letters K, N, R and X because they're beautiful and perfect.

I prefer the second y cedilla, because it's better.

Congratulations. You did hard work for a year?! Wow!

When will you finish your fonts family? How much will you sell the fonts family per dollars?

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thanks, Kevin. The font became much more complex than my initial plan and it will take about 18 or 24 more months to get ready.

kevintheophile's picture

Arghn, Freiberger, 2 years?! Oh my God, poor of you! MyFonts, Linotype or FFonts must pay the most expensive price you because of your work of 2 years.

Bendy's picture

Igor, have you tried removing the left serif on the bottom of the y? (Keep the right one for the ogonek to start from.) EDIT Or perhaps it's permissible to flip the ogonek to the top and have it coming out of one of the arms?

I was also going to ask people's opinions about Hcedilla and Mcedilla. Have you seen this glyph in use anywhere?

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thanks, Bendy. I will try your ideas for y and post samples later. About letters with cedilla, I remember |C|S|+cedilla are part of various alphabets while |M|+cedilla is used just in Marshallese. I don't remember where |D|E|L|R|O|T|+cedilla are used, but I have this in my notes. The others appear in several transliteration schemas:

|H|: transliterations from Arabic, Indic and Cyrillic scripts;
|N|: transliterations from Cyrillic and Indic scripts;
|K|: transliterations from Georgian and Cyrillic scripts; and
|X|: transliterations from Cyrillic script.

Note: opinions about Cyrillic letters are welcome.

Igor Freiberger's picture

Additional information about letters with cedilla: Dcedilla is used in Livonian, Lcedilla in Marshallese and transliteration from Cyrillic script, Ocedilla is also used in Marshallese.

Back to Yogonek: here are more drafts. By now, I think the first one is the better choice.

Drafts of y with ogonek.

riccard0's picture

Regarding your comment about tabular fractions (http://typophile.com/node/75357#comment-435393), there are a couple of threads mentioning them:
http://typophile.com/node/41191
http://typophile.com/node/28608

Igor Freiberger's picture

Thank you very much, Riccardo. These information will help me a lot. It would be great to have arbitrary nut fractions, as refered in Chartwell release thread. Maybe this is possible combining OT substitutions and mark/mkmk positioning.

CreeDo's picture

Really nice font, reminded me somehow of Melior. I like the y's where the ogonek sticks out a bit more to the right. I like the bottom of the 4th from the right, but not the top. Top should be like the ones before it.

How was it switching to fontlab vs. illustrator? I've decided to do that too... illustrator is maddening in that if you're designing on a grid, it subtly moves the letter without warning. I.e. the base of the letter was on 0, suddenly it's on .002. The height of the slab was 40, suddenly it's 39.999.

litera's picture

Just a humble opinion I shouldn't write in the first place.

Ok first of all: This is a really great looking font. Hats down to you Freiberger. And to say the least this is one of the most glyph complete font (if not the most). I don't think that even Adobe produces this many glyphs in their Pro versions.

On the other hand I question this decision to make it so very much complete, because on one hand your font has been completed long ago (probably 10% of your time) in a sense that would cover >90% of all Latin writing languages. The remaining 10% is now taking you the other 90% of time. I don't think you'll be able to compensate this 90% of time spent on seldomly used letters.

Do you think you'll be able to finish all seven weights (28 fonts alltogether as you talk about) in 3 years (one has passed by and you're talking about 2 more)? US$ 25 per font is still not cheap even though they're very VERY glyph complete.

I think you're over-engineering this a bit too much. But you should know best. And regarding your alternates. I guess you can't decide which ones to keep so you're keeping them all. Maybe that's not the best way of doing it. Choose only those that best fit this family. Think of the sheer amount of ampersands in the family. 1 is standard, 2-3 is nice 4-5 is great, 5+ is overwhelming.

But put all these aside: Wow! This font (when finished) will definitely define put you in the typographic space.

Andreas Stötzner's picture

Robert,
… one of the most glyph complete font (if not the most). I don't think that even Adobe produces this many glyphs in their Pro versions

Adobe is certainly not the measure here. I made the experience, when users seek for a font offering both typographic quality *and* great character coverage, they usually end up with Andron (if I may say so).

Surely Igor’s admirable work will be on of the very, *very few* typefaces challenging me.
Great!

Igor, you may conſider to reviſe your ß-glyph. In Italics, an ſ_s underſtanding is OK, but in an upright font its ſhape ſhould *not* reſemble ſ_s. This is but a much repeated misunderſtanding. The ß is neither a ſ_z nor a ſ_s, it’s a ſ dreaming of being a ſeahorſe.

cuttlefish's picture

This is even more ambitious and certainly more scholarly than my Agamemnon project. I just started obsessively filling in glyph slots, and am paring it back severely for a release. Best wishes on your success with this and on finding a fair price point.

flooce's picture

So your glyph-count reached 6000+ - that is impressive. You really want to create One Font To Rule Them All.

Now, how about optical sizes and different widths?

But seriously, I hope you consider pricing and licensing in a way that pays off for you, as your face has almost no competition.

Congratulations.

hrant's picture

Somehow I'd missed this! Very cool. Especially since, unlike
virtually all fonts with very large glyph sets, it Does Not Suck. :-)

So is it finished?

hhp

JamesT's picture

I'd be curious to know the status of this as well. I'm very envious of your project and I hope (someday) my project may be half as good.

litera's picture

Anybody knows the outcome of this lifelong endeavour?

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