Have you seen Adam Twardoch's Polish Diacritics site?

Not sure why the image didn't upload... let's try this again.

If you want this script face to look like real Polish handwriting, put the slash at the top or even above the l. If you want to keep the loop, then I think the slash would be best above the letter; if you modify the l so that the loop is removed, then the slash can be near the top or above. See Adam's comments on script faces here:
http://www.twardoch.com/download/polishhowto/stroke.html

Funnily enough, she does know what the letters in her language are supposed to look like :-)

You have to take into account native usage.

Knowing Greek, I get screwed up reading logos like KIA and SAMSUNG, where there is Lambda in place of A.
But not an issue for most Latin script users.
Both are Korean companies, wonder why that is.
I guess the designers thought the crossbar on A is unnecessary, which it may well be!

In addition to the information on Adam’s website (see Ben’s and John’s link), here’s how Polish children are taught to write the kreska ukośna in the letter ew:

As handwriting is less accurate than typography, and angled slashes and straight bars are hard to distinguish, the slash is shifted from its usual position at the vertical centre to the top – otherwise, confusion of ‘t’ and ‘ł’ is bound to happen.

This approach is well established – see this copperplate example from a 1911 primer:

It’s not a hard rule though, and exceptions can be found within Polish type design. It depends on the nature of the script. With its long ascender, Silesiana’s ‘ł’ doesn’t run the risk of getting confused with the distinctly shorter t. That’s why the slash may remain at the vertical centre here.

I posted my last post without seeing all the other wonderful comments. It's nice to know there are folks here who are so familiar with the language. Having said that, JanekZ (and of course anyone else with more knowledge than I), which of the four latest samples would you go with, and are there any changes or modifications you'd make?

Thanks all,

RL

Hi Robert,
Your nr 3 ł is quite good. Try make the stroke similar to the stroke in 'b' (this upper 'hook' is distracting).
Also the ą could be better, ogonek is drawn by hand in one move (like in Ex Ponto 'głąb' on Adam' site). The same, of course, in eogonek ę.
Regards

Ton,
Sorry to say, for me, it is not lslash at all...

It is a ticklish problem, it looks like ł or not...
That letter is wide and the slash is straight, my letters are narrower and 'kreska'/slash is 'wavy'; thats the difference.
Nice to see people discussing these letters.
Good night

Remember that if you removed the loop, you should also make the spacing tighter on the right side to optically compensate. If the loop is removed, then the stroke should be modelled on that of your b, without a hook at the top. I would follow that approach, but put the slash close to the top of the letter, and make it flatter, like the improved Caflisch example on Adam's web page.

Consider making the a with ogonek an non-connecting letter on the right side. Not every letter needs to connect to the next, and in a naturally written form the ogonek forms a stroke reversal off the shortened exit stroke of the a, like this (my modified Bickham Pro):

Of course, the same applies to the other ogonek diacritic letters, with the exception of the o with ogonek, in which the ogonek is added as a separate stroke, not a reversal.

Thank you, thank you... I think I'm understanding things a little better. Here are graphics showing the changes I've made.

. I'm not sure the looped versions are working yet. I'm curious to know what the preferred would be.

I have also reworked the ogonek glyphs. I'll show those on the next post.

RL

Robert,
thank you, gooood work.
2,3,4 and the ogoneks are nice now IMO. I think 3 culd be standard and 2, 4 alternatives.
There is a little problem with yours z_dot_above vs z_acute. That dot looks like upside down acute now (and is uncentered).
Best wishes

Something like this? (Bad, fast sketch. It should be much more legible).

Look here - bottom image in the word 'pozostały'. And here - first image in the gallery, 2nd para in 'na małym'. Or here in first menu button 'Strona Główna'.

We really like/prefer those wavy strokes above the 'l'!

Is it just me, or are those ogoneks looking a bit too light?

That was going to be another question. I don't use these diacritics in my own native English language (unfortunately, the only language I speak), I am still learning what is copasetic and what kinds of things are definite "no-no's."

Since you brought it up, Thomas, I'm inclined to enlarge the ogonek's on the capitals. Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.

Oh man, since I got FontLab a week ago, and I've been on a learning tear. This is what I've needed for over 20 years of designing mediocre fonts.

RL

Thomas "Using the same ogonek size from the lowercase on the caps really doesn't seem to work in this typeface."

No one word in Polish starts with Aogonek nor Eogonek, so to be honest, there is no chance to use these letters UC in a sentence. [in Polish, I didn't check: scholarly transcriptions of Old Church Slavonic and Proto-Slavic, Lithuanian, Cayuga, Creek, Navajo and Western Apache, Chiricahua and Mescalero, Tutchone, Dogrib, Elfdalian, Rheinische Dokumenta] BTW 10-20% could help; ogoneks UC and lc should look the same.

Robert - the last lslash works IMO.
medicore... definitely no.
Regards

Try modelling the shape and weight of the ogonek on the lower-left portion of your lowercase a. I've found this generally a reliable method to get this diacritic to look right (by which I mean to look like it fits naturally in the text).

Your latest l-slash forms are very nice, and the ligated double is a nice touch.

check this, to avoid similar collision

Before actually reading the text, I thought of a swashed ą! ;-)

Hi Rob,
please forgive me.
Letters to check: ęg ąg ąf ęf ąp ęp (*)
You could use these words: łęg, sąg, stąpać, występ, gągoł (Bucephala clangula)
Ad 2 There is no such connections in Polish (*)
Ad 3 Funny letter, sorry, it is not ą ;)

* to check in languages I listed above
Best wishes (Jan or Janek, whatever)

John wrote:
Rob, you misunderstood me. I did not mean to attach the ogonek to the left side of the a...

Ahh, OK.

Yes, I understand, now. And I've adjusted the weight and shape as you recommended.

Thanks

Both ogoneks appear rare (1%) in polish text, while a and e are the most often used letters (8-7%). Pairs ąf, ęf, ąj and ęj don't exist.

aogonek preceds c,g,p,t,z,zdotaccent
letters preceding aogonek (most often): c,i,j,k,n,s

eogonek preceds b,d,g,k,p,s,sacute,t
letters preceding eogonek (most often): i,j,lslash,n

As you can see, there are no problems here.

@ Riccard0: You can make a swashed ogonek, but following John's rules. Then you will get a typical barocco form.

Sure. But it's one word per 150.000 and ąf can be solved with ąp.

I know that, but the possibility of such occurency is near zero. So it's rather up to a designer, to have everything cleaned up.

Now I understand why their ogoneks are placed much more to the center than ours.

Lithuanian is the most ogoneky language

More than Diné Bizaad (Navajo)? which makes me wonder, what l-slash script shape is preferred for this language? Although, I'm guessing that that's not the language you're targeting for this typeface.