Gotische

eomine's picture

This is one of the new projects I'm working on.
The name ('Gotische') is temporary.

As usual, all comments are welcome.
I'll save my own comments for later. :-)

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pablohoney77's picture

very nice! i especially like the soft transitions. however a crisper version might be nice as well. (i find myself wanting to do multiple versions of everything, i guess it's the gemini in me) i'm assuming you based this off another font or some lettering? if so what is it? it almost looks like a Goudy face. Any caps in the works yet? at any rate, keep up the good work!

raph's picture

I like it. A lot. Clearly you've put a lot of thought into preserving the gothic letterforms in a much more legible font than usual. The hairline in the 'a' is a thing of beauty in itself.

A few nitpicks: the upper left curve on the 'g' doesn't look perfectly smooth to me - kind of Bezier-ish. I'm not a huge fan of the comma-like dot on ij; to my eyes, a traditional soft diamond would read more nicely. The wide letterspacing seems to work in the setting above, but I can imagine uses where tightening it up a little would be better.

The 'rv' looks almost like a ligature. Any plans for more ligs?

Like paul, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing an uppercase.

fonthausen's picture

Nice work eduardo !

---jacques

eomine's picture

Thanks for your comments!

Paul:
> however a crisper version might be nice as well.

Actually I started this with sharp forms, but soon realised it wasn't really working. Then I started softening corners and connections, and also tweaking curves, improving the shapes, etc. I don't plan going back to the sharp version now.


> i'm assuming you based this off another font or
> some lettering? if so what is it?

No, it's not directly based on any lettering or font...


> it almost looks like a Goudy face.

But certainly Goudy Text is one of my main sources of inspirations for this project.
Another great reference for me is Ingo Preuss' Fleischmann Gotisch.


> Any caps in the works yet?

Just some rough sketches of a few letters.
When I complete the A-Z set I'll post them here.


Raph:
> A few nitpicks: the upper left curve on the 'g'
> doesn't look perfectly smooth to me - kind of
> Bezier-ish.

Not sure what you meant by 'bezier-ish', but I ended up changing the 'g' anyway (see below, next post).


> I'm not a huge fan of the comma-like dot on ij;
> to my eyes, a traditional soft diamond would
> read more nicely.

I guess you're right.


> The wide letterspacing seems to work in the
> setting above, but I can imagine uses where
> tightening it up a little would be better.

Yes, I already suspected that the spacing could be tightened.


> The 'rv' looks almost like a ligature. Any
> plans for more ligs?

No plans for ligatures (except for standard fi and fl ligatures) by now.

eomine's picture

These are some of the changes I made last night, based on some of the comments here and also based on my own ideas.

Modifications:
- Shorter ascenders;
- Spacing: tightening and adjustments;
- Diamond-like dots on 'i' and 'j';
- 'g': removed detail on upper right corner/ more organic shape;
- 'd': new shape, more consistent with a blackletter alphabet;
- 's': softened transitions;
- 'r': removed detail, it's less confusing and better for spacing.

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pablohoney77's picture

i like the tighter spacing as well, but i have one request... could you leave the old i & j in as alternates? i kinda like the comma-shaped dots. also good job on the d! since you changed that one you might also want to go with a more traditional z as well or have it an alternate.

cbs's picture

My attention was drawn to the fl combination immediately... the connection (not really a ligature) of the fl is not working as it forces a different letter space than the other character combinations shown...just a thought. cbs

artist's picture

Nicely done, but how about making the descenders longer, since I always thought a typeface with
tall ascenders looks more balanced with long descenders.

Both versions of the lower case d, and i are nice.
How about also having more alternates on the lowercase f, h, m, n and z.

How will the capitals look?

Will this typeface be available at Myfonts.com?

My email address is: white112233@hotmail.com

Yours Truly,
Robert

eomine's picture

Paul, if I manage to draw other alternates, I'll keep the comma-shaped-dotted-i-and-j as well.
And I'll see what I can do with the 'z'. Question: does someone think it's incoherent to keep the traditional 'd' with this non-calligraphic, modern form of 'z'?

Cynthia, thanks for your comment. I'm working on the 'f' and the 'f'-ligatures.

Robert, the ascenders in this font measures 200 units and the descenders, 150 units. I think it's a good balance. I tried extending the descenders a little bit here, but I don't think it'll work. I'm finishing the uppercase characters, I'll post them until the weekend.

pablohoney77's picture

short answer:
to my eyes the traditional d looks out of place without modifying a few other characters.

long answer:
it seems to me that most of these forms are fairly romanized including the v, w as well as the z. i don't think you need alternates for all characters for alternates to be useful. i think you could keep your original letterforms (as in post 1 except swtich out the i & j) and have alternates for d, v, w & z for a more authentic textura feel. maybe do a single storey "a" as an alternate as well?

hrant's picture

Eduardo, great stuff - and great revisions! The first thing I was going to say was that the spacing needs to be much tighter, but I think now it's great.

I think your proportions are right on now, and the "z" I find OK (although maybe slightly too attention-getting). My only real complaint is the "s": that diagonal is too distracting - could you break it up on the inside two spots?

BTW, about the softness/sharpness, I agree with Paul, and I think this is a great opportunity to make a too-sharp version to accompany this too-soft one, if you have the time that is.

hhp

eomine's picture

Paul, I created the alternates you mentioned (avwz). I'm still not very convinced about the z, but the other ones are working well, I think. There's also a descending h.

Hrant, great suggestion for the s, thank you. I should keep the old s in the alternate font, though.

And now I've finally finished all uppercase letters. I tried putting this thin vertical bar in some of the letters, for a better 'color', but I'm not sure how well it is working. Also, there is the H; I'm not a big fan of it but I couldn't figure out another solution.


application/pdfgotische
gotische.pdf (39.5 k)

artist's picture

Nicely done on the rest of the typeface entitled
Gotische including the Capitals and alternates.

Any word on its release at Myfonts.com?

Yours Truly,
Robert

dan_reynolds's picture

I like your second set of caps better than the first. I'd leave those two diagonal cross bars out of the capital H

eomine's picture

I'll just keep the thin vertical lines then.
I tried your suggestion for the H, Dan, thanks. I'll keep it in the alternate font.

The following PDF shows the full character set, including diacritics, punctuation, figures, &c.


application/pdf7
7.pdf (62.5 k)



And BTW, I'm working on that sharp version...

aquatoad's picture

Hi Eduardo,

I just stumbled in here and found this beauty. I noticed the slight bend in the terminals. Are you planning another Linotype triumph? :-)

There are two sticking points I noticed straight away. The r. I understand the desire to improve spacing, but the form is suffering for it. Too droopy IMHO. Second is the z. In both versions the horizontal strokes seem about 10% too thick. In the version with the crossbar, the balance is off. Try shortening the top arm, and lengthening the bottom arm. It should sit better.

In the caps. First let me say, I'm not very familliar with the traditional forms. However, it seems that your set of caps was drawn by two people. One person did the BCEFGLOQT (this person likes the ogee shape), and another did the HIJKMNPRSUVWY (this person likes the thin verticals). They collaborated on the D, and aliens abducted them and drew the A and X :-) That's my theory! Kidding aside, if you were to set the words Birmingham Daily News, the three caps would be too far divergent for a cohesive masthead IMHO.

Of the two ideas, I prefer the second, the one with the thin vertical strokes. I notice that it is mostly the round characters get the ogee shape (FYI what I'm calling an ogee is the s shaped stroke that looks like a dolop of toothpaste). Consider making this stroke more vertical with an added thin, as in the I and J.

I also notice two different kinds of finishing treatments to your strokes in the caps. Note the top of the B vs the top of the D. Bottom of F vs Bottom of J. BTW, tail of the Q looks a little wobbly on the bottom.

I like the OE cap combination very much. I have a side question about the OE and AE. When in all caps and all lower case settings these make perfect sense. With this type of font, just about the only reason you'd have an all cap setting is in a tatoo! Should these glyphs then be Ae and Oe to lead in a scentence such as: Aesthetics are great! or should it be:

hrant's picture

Better by the day, Eduardo!

About the "r", I was thinking "too droopy" at first too, but then I became unsure, since I got the feeling that in actual setting it'll blend in - and now I think it does that OK.

> Should these glyphs then be Ae and Oe

I voiced that idea on Typo-L a while back, at which point Gary Munch said he had the same idea even a year or two before! Not enough people seem to like it though.

Here are rough sketches from about 5 years ago, for Paphos:

AeOe

hhp

raph's picture

Fine, fine work. I have only minor nits.

1. I think you might have the path direction wrong on the ij dots. They render just fine with Ghostscript, but on OSX Preview they show up as tiny dots.

2. left side bearing on f (and its ligs) seems a little loose.

3. Asymmetry in circumflex intentional? It doesn't seem to be mirrored in the caron.

4. Of the less common characters, I found the OE and capital Thorn particularly delightful. Capital Eth is functional, but I feel the crossbar and vertical line interfere with each other a bit. Most other blackletters seem to solve this by making the crossbar heavier, at least as dark as what you've got on the Z.

5. Of the caps, NM don't seem to fit the ornateness of the other glyphs. Consider the solution adopted by Amador:

72 point N and M from Amador

6. Parens and brackets are really light. I think going with the same slightly blobby style as the math symbols and dashes would be a win. (Kudos on the latter, btw; it's the kind of detail most people wouldn't care about, but makes the difference between a great and an outstanding font).

7. i-circumflex and i-umlaut crash into each other in the showing. Probably wouldn't be an issue in real text.

8. Capital N-tilde crashes into the vertical stroke, as well.

Overall, great work!

dan_reynolds's picture

Eduardo, this is beautiful! I'm so jealous! I wish that you would include a long-s, and maybe all of the DFR-ligatures, too. Otherwise, I don't have any comments... Other than that I hope that you sell this over Linotype; we don't have anything like it.

eomine's picture

Thanks for the great comments, guys.

Randy, I will draw some alternates for the 'r' and see how it works. I understand that the current one may look strange in some cases. About the 'z', I concluded that the thick horizontal strokes in it should be thicker than the vertical thick strokes of the other letters, because of the long thin stroke (in 'z'). But I see that I made it too dark, so I'll adjust it.
Your comment about the caps is exactly the kind of thing that I needed. I have already started working on new forms.

And Hrant, I think that the main problem in making 'Ae' and 'Oe' ligatures (Uc+lc) is that it violates 'notan'. :-)

Raph, yes, the asymmetry of the circumflex is intentional. I made it symmetrical at first, then changed it, but forgot to update the caron. You have a very good point about the Eth. And regarding the parethesis and brackets, I now realize that they're even lighter than the math symbols. I'll work on that.

Dan, do you know where can I find a good reference about the Dfr-ligatures and Dfr-encodings?

designalchemy's picture

Excellent work Eduardo.

speter's picture

Eduardo, did you do the lettering on the cover of Juanes' new CD? (The video for his new song has some buildings from Brasilia in it, so there is already a Brasilian connection.)

http://www.juanes.net/espanol/index.htm

eomine's picture

Nope, Steve. That lettering is just set in Goudy Text.

The following PDF shows the new set of capitals and an alternate r.
All uppercase letters, except U, V and W, were recreated or modified.


application/pdf8
8.pdf (58.2 k)

dan_reynolds's picture

I opened up the Mac PS of a DFR font to get this. It looks like all of the substitutions you need:

s (closing-s) = #

pablohoney77's picture

absolutely beautiful, Eduardo. I think it's looking rather polished now. i think the cap are much improved and harmonize well with the lc and each other. great inspiration!

eomine's picture

Here's a PDF showing the sharp version.
Maybe it could have a little more (thin-thick) contrast.


application/pdf9
9.pdf (45.0 k)



And thank you Dan for the Dfr ligatures info.
Although I'm not sure yet if I'll include them.

eomine's picture

I've been working on this, and it's almost finished, but I still would like to hear your opinions about the ligatures. Especially the ch, the ck and the longs-ligatures. See the samples below. The typeface shown is the soft version, but the sharp version will have the ligatures too.


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pablohoney77's picture

anything new on this one, Eduardo?

eomine's picture

Glad you asked, Paul. This typeface should be released soon, probably in Opentype format. Soft and sharp versions will be available, each of them having an alternate font; so it's a total of 4 fonts. I'm currently working on a website and as soon as I finish it, this typeface should be released.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any comments on the sharp version and the ligatures above?

Thanks for the interest and stay tuned...

eomine's picture

Just wanted to add that this typeface has just been released (renamed to Gotica Lumina).
Thanks for all your comments.

beejay's picture

Congrats Eduardo ...

dan_reynolds's picture

I'm really glad that you got this face together. I like the design of your new site alot, too.

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www.typeoff.de

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