Archive through January 25, 2003

anonymous's picture

Your thoughts? Close enough for legal action?

ff logo

capthaddock's picture

The idea may or may not have been borrowed in this case, but I doubt that fitting two F's together like that hasn't been though up by many logo designers before. I frequently see almost identical logos thought up around the same time by different designers for different companies.

Example: that "Rohr" logo in the Critique forum is almost the same as the logo for the "Creativity 32" book that's coming out.

Paul

hrant's picture

In fact, I just realized, Fendi's logo is like that. Maybe it depends if you're a competitor in the same market. So I guess FontFont can never market fancy handbags.

hhp

tsprowl's picture

The rules of copyright depend on where the copyright is claimed, registered, and applicable.

Our gouvernment (Canada) has a website where you can search images and their "description" of said logo. If their description and image matches, best not tred in those waters. Some descriptions are as vague as "M" (Helvetica) in a black box symbolizing unity. registered 1966, folded, re-registered ect. ect.

Check with you copyright office, hire a lawyer or order the search. its the second step in the identity design process in our hood.

paul's picture

Here's an interlocking 'F' logo idea I did about a year ago for a client. I was pretty happy with it, until I noticed that it formed a swastica in the center. I tried a couple of other variations, but couldn't get rid of the swastica without leaving a gap in the middle, so I dropped it.

fidelis loog

porky's picture

Also see the link below, but I dont think anyone would want to sue these guys:

http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/

I doubt FontFont was the first to think of interlocking characters anyhow.

Incidentally, isn't the swastica a sign of good luck?

kentlew's picture

Just to clarify: a logo is protected by a slightly different branch of intellectual property law -- Trademark, not Copyright. Unlike copyright, which accrues to the creator upon the act of creation (under all copyright laws that I know of anyway), trademark protection is usually only offered after registration and a period of review. Also, the guidelines for determining infringement are specific to trademark law.

If "Satan" has any concerns, he/she should contact a trademark attorney for a professional opinion.

Svastika is a Sanskrit word derived from svasti ("well-being, fortune, luck, success, prosperity"). Svastika can refer in general to any auspicious mark or object, but it is most commonly used to indicate the familiar swastika symbol. Some claim that the direction of the arms has significance, but I suspect this is a post-WWII revisionism designed to distance the original symbol from the Nazi appropriation/corruption of it. Steven Heller wrote an entire book about this.

hrant's picture

> isn't the swastica a sign of good luck?

And other nice things too, in many cultures, even independently (like with the AmerInd). But try using it in public in Germany, and your luck will most certainly take a serious nose-dive...

BTW, I found Heller's book a monumental waste of a tantalizing topic.

hhp

gmh's picture

It's seems like the rotated double F is a pretty common device. Here are a few I found on google:

Bald Condensed's picture

Paul, talking about unintentional swastika's: we once received a flaming letter by a FontShop customer who bought FUSE 1 and noticed the "x" in Ian Swift's Maze 91. This guy was so outraged he virtually accused us of being Nazis! I fear this negative conotation is so engrained in our collective memory that it won't ever go away. Then again, he was the only customer in the entire FS network we ever heard of who was irked by the character. Methinks it's just a question of interpretation, and I suspect some people to intentionally go looking for these kind of things.

Graham, I'm very impressed.

Satan, I really don't know. Personnally, comparing your design to the other examples shown here I think your interlocking Fs are a pure swipe, and I wouldn't recommend using it from an ethical point of view. Uvcurz, you're a free man. No offense, I don't wanna sound too harsh. Wouldn't want to incur the wrath of Satan... :-)

delgadovic's picture

The whole problem here is branding. Im sure they stole the name "Friction Factory" from obscure 80s pop band "Fiction Factory" famous for their excel "Feels Like Heaven" single.

Why didnt they choose CC (Culture Club) or TT (Tak Talk) i wonder?
I mean, on with the ripp-off trip...

hrant's picture

Graham, killer collection there!

hhp

matha_standun's picture

Paul, I would like to think I would have gone ahead with that logo, but, unfortunately, I had to take the cover off Heller's book to get away with reading it in public on the metro.
BTW What country was the client based in?

Matha

gmh's picture

"Graham, I'm very impressed."
"Graham, killer collection there!"

Well thankyouverymuch.
The power of Google Images is mighty.
You must treat her with awe and respect.
It could be dangerous if it gets into the wrong hands.

paul's picture

HI Matha,

The client is in the U.S. (as I am).

Probably, nobody would ever have noticed the swastica hidden in the center, but once I first noticed it, I always saw it each time I looked at the logo, so it spoiled the idea for me. Also, I didn't want it to possibly cause a problem for my client in the future.

- Paul

hrant's picture

What if you made the middle "pixel" white?

hhp

piccic's picture

I am very interested by the swastika issue.
I can confirm that the clockwise or counterclockwise direction is an after-WW2 assumption, since the symbol has always been used with positive meaning in both directions before the Nazi appropriation.

Actually I had a short discussion with Heller when he wrote an essay on Outwest for my "Letters" book (coming out before the end of.. etc. etc.) and I mostly disagree with his conclusions. I have not read his book, but I have read an article on Baseline and what I actually consider wrong is the preconception against blackletter (raised by Heller in another article). This is all part of a project I intend to develop on the redemption of the blackletter (and maybe the swastika) considering that, as Miles Newlyn pointed out talking about his Ferox typeface, perceptions towards graphic symbols always arise in context.

When I will do it I will ask for the opinion of Typophile members. This tread has proved really interesting.

hrant's picture

More than "wrong", Heller is following the official party line.

hhp

piccic's picture

Well, most people are, but Heller seems to have a strong personal attitude towards the issue. In part I can understand but I just hate the idea of "cursed" graphic symbols or alphabets. And I'm glad Mattel or someone for them used Jon Barnbrook's Manson for Barbie's computer animation feature "Princess Raperonzolo", also on DVD. First Snow White, now this. And I've found also the most banal use of Manson ever, paired with Trajan: for an Italian Shopping center. So "sad" I had to send it to Jon.

hrant's picture

> I just hate the idea of "cursed" graphic symbols or alphabets.

Me too, but my point is that to Heller (and many others), that serves an extremely useful purpose.

hhp

matha_standun's picture

What irritates me about Heller's book is his attack on the accidental use of swastikas - which would have been Paul's case if he hadn't noticed it. And this is in a book subtitled Symbol Beyond Redemtion?. He should be honest and leave out the question mark. The swastika might eventually redeem itself if it wasn't for people like Heller attacking football teams and skateboard companies for their choice of logo.

I recently read Heinrich B

hrant's picture

> He should be honest and leave out the question mark.

That's like asking news program previews not to say: "Wondering how many Middle-Eastern-looking men live in your neighborhood? Tune in at 6PM, the answer may surprise you!" This is not a joke - that sort of trickery is standand practice here. Along with weather ladies with names like "Windy Vavoom".

If the Swastika redeemed itself, it would be extremely less useful to certain people, and only slightly more useful to most people.

hhp

matha_standun's picture

"Windy Vavoom", eh?. Are you sure you're not thinking of that dream with the buxom Valkyrie?
;-)

M.

hrant's picture

No, I'm sure the Valkyrie never told me her name.
I would've remembered.

Just so nobody thinks I'm too much of a perv:
http://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=typo-l&P=R242&I=-3

hhp

matha_standun's picture

Sorry, Hrant. Don't want to be giving you a bad reputation or anything. I'm just jealous. I cut people up into little pieces in my dreams. No valkyries anywhere. :_(

I'm off to bed to try again, though, so I'll say goodnight.

M.

capthaddock's picture

No modern discussion of the swastika is complete without mention of Swastika, Ontario - the defiant Canadian town that stands by its name and emblem.

http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/fots.html

I've read about the town before; this was just the quickest link I could find. The burg won a battle in the 50's to resist a government-mandated namechange to "Winston". They proudly display the swastika on local merchandise (matchbooks, etc.) and have a campaign going to enlighten people on the symbol's true meanings.

Paul

Joe Pemberton's picture

The email provided at www.frictionfactory.com
is for satan@frictionfactory.com.

Have you ever written a cease and decist to the devil?

Seriously though, before you write a flame to satan,
it's probably best to let the folks at FontFont initiate any
dialogue or action, if that's what they choose to do.

Jared Benson's picture

Separated at birth?

fontlab
fontfont

Any other siblings we should know about?

anonymous's picture

Actually, I am Satan.... well I am the the creator of that logo (which also uses FF's DIN ) and before I go on to finish out the site, I wanted to know if I was in danger of being sued anytime soon.

Does that type of thing happen often? The dimensions are pretty similiar to FontFont's, but that is out of necessity.

hrant's picture

I think so, yeah.

hhp

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