Univers BQ

lettertiep's picture

Hello,

I was looking on the web to find a version of Univers which I encountered some time ago, called 'Univers BQ'. I think this was a digital version from Berthold (but now it can't be found on their new site). It was a superior digitalisation than the Adobe/Linotype one (See also Detailtypografie by Forssman & de Jong). And it had the original &-sign!
I know there is something like the Neue Univers (with the new numbering system) from Linotype, but I don't like it as much as the old one. Could this old 'Univers BQ' version be for sale somewhere?
univers

Miss Tiffany's picture

Bitstream's Zurich sports that ampersand.

aschmidt's picture

http://www.typos.ch/Support/Missing_BQ/missing_bq.htm

the only relevant thing i can find is this link to a Typos web page about the "missing bq fonts;" the page is mainly in german and dictionary.com's german>english translator gives me the cryptic: "For above Berthold BQ Fonts the no more in the program is, requires you please proposals for solution over. Thanks." if you find this message mysterious and alluring there's a "support" email so you could try emailing them

andreas's picture

The new Berthold Site is http://www.bertholdtypes.com

The typos site says: List of BQ Fonts from the original Berthold Type Collecion not in the current programm, because of licens reasons.

Note: The new Berhold Type Corporation has only the rights of the old phototypes form the original Berthold AG Berlin. Lots of other metal typefaces has Berthold AG / Bauer & Co published - not available form Berthold or any other sources.

lettertiep's picture

So it's not available anymore? Who has the rights then for this version?

Bald Condensed's picture

There's a very complicated legal battle going on, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of Berthold is in legal limbo for the moment. I'll see if I can find some more info for you, unless anyone else on the board knows the situation firsthand. That'd save me the trouble.

Bald Condensed's picture

"How much is that doggie in the window?..."

;)

Sorry, Lettertiep, het was even sterker dan mezelf. Cute. See, Isaac? This is not creepy.

Isaac's picture

i thought the dog was creepier than gw.
oh well, maybe i'll have time next week
to make a lekker new one. it just might
be that wicked ampersand from univers bq.

Isaac's picture

i thought the dog was creepier than gw.
oh well, maybe i'll have time next week
to make a lekker new one. it just might
be that wicked ampersand from univers bq.

Isaac's picture

oops. double.

Miss Tiffany's picture

I found this type specimen last night digging around for Times New Roman information. If you scroll down, almost to the bottom, you'll see the Univers specimen. Does anyone know if this is original? My guess is yes by the name on the sample. Check out the ampersand.

Hey, It's GeeDubya ... :-)

Miss Tiffany's picture

AFTER finding my brain... forget the above. I'm gonna continue to dig.

***so embarassed***

It is Neue Haas Grotesk. I was confused. Drat! Blast!

Isaac's picture

thanks for the link anyway. cool stuff.
say what you want about helvetica, hrant,
that poster is great. i've always thought
the univers chart was cool, but it's even
better in color. long may she wave.

hrant's picture

Peignot all the way, dude.

hhp

lettertiep's picture

I tought the dog was less scarier than my face ;)
Anyway, nobody can buy a decent digital

Bald Condensed's picture

Just as uncomfortable as not being able to purchase a license to a decent digital Annonce Gothic Extended, dude! CSA Images' "Bigford" comes close, though.

Not every typeface makes it to the screen, unfortunately. That's the harsh reality.

And trust me, Bitstream's version is mighty fine. I've got their full type collection on CD-ROM (that was actually my very first purchase as an independent (typo)graphic designer) and I can assure you their digitizations are top notch. Just compare their Zapf Humanist or Humanist Slabserif 712 to Adobe's version of Optima (not that I would use that face in a million years) or Egyptienne F. Suddenly, you'll realize that a lot of lines were meant to be oh so slightly curved, not straight.

jfp's picture

Agree with Peter about quality of outlines but not about "Bitstream rights," hum.


Anyway, I'm here because of the Ampersand of Univers. The Second one is the original one made by Frutiger team at the time of Deberny and Peignot, then for US market (perhaps for the Monotype version in early days), they designed an alternative one such &.

voil

lettertiep's picture

merci bien!

:-)

hmmm, too bad the version isn't around anymore. I compared it with the Zurich, which is indeed better than Adobe/Linotype, but I still like the Berthold version more. Maybe I should go for the neue Univers...
or for the new Akzidenz Grotesk (with the old style figures: lekker)... Let's go swiss ;)

BTW, what was Erik van Bloklands quote again about the digitalisation of the adobe Univers?

jfp's picture

Neue Univers from Linotype show too much contrast to my eyes, particularly in intermediates weights, due to not enough control of interpolation I think.

paul's picture

Tiffany,

Thanks for the link to the 'modern' typefaces. The Foundry

Miss Tiffany's picture

Paul,

Thanks for the link. If you are interested in the history behind either Renner or Futura, you really need to read Chris Burke's book about none other than Paul Renner. Imagine that. Sorry, sarcasm intended it has been one of those days. Thanks for the image too. The ligatures are very cool. I always wished I had a g in my name so i could use that wacky alternat.

:-)

Miss Tiffany's picture

Paul,

Thanks for the link. If you are interested in the history behind either Renner or Futura, you really need to read Chris Burke's book about none other than Paul Renner. The chapter on the Futura type alone, makes it well worth the money.

Imagine that. Sorry, sarcasm intended it has been one of those days. Thanks for the image too. The ligatures are very cool. I always wished I had a g in my name so i could use that wacky alternate.

:-)

Miss Tiffany's picture

Here is a quote attributed to Renner, very interesting:

"The truly Modern, that is, the undistorted expression of an objective zeitgeist, is only what we hold today to be timelessly perfect. This is not the same in all periods, because the insight into the timelessly valid changes from generation to generation."

Sorry about the double post.


hrant's picture

> I always wished I had a g in my name

Make up a middle name for yourself!
Like "Evangelista" or something.

hhp

paul's picture

Hi Tiffany,

I've got the Renner book, and I've read it cover-to-cover. I'm enough of a geek that I've read the biographies of Renner, Bruce Rogers, Jan Tschichold, Baskerville, Goudy, and probably a couple of others. I've thought of writing an article or short biography of W.A. Dwiggins.

I had at one time thought of making up my own custom version of Futura, just because I was intrigued by the alternate characters, then I discovered that The Foundry had already done it.

You don't have a

Isaac's picture

the funky upside-down y as an a is pretty cool.
i haven't seen these alternates before. this
is turning into a very informative thread.

and why can't you spell your name tiffang?
it's your name, eh.

Bald Condensed's picture

Isaac, PLEASE! Another yucky picture... Who the flying firetruck is that?

paul's picture

Isaac,

The alternative letters are pretty fun. Since Futura has so many round shapes, you can substitute an alternate a, for instance, in a word like page, where you would otherwise have three circles one-after-another. Having read Hrant's pages, I would now say that this improves the Bouma. The alternative characters can break the pattern, and even substituting a single letter can radically change the look of Futura.

There were originally several other characters

rcapeto's picture

I realize that I

rcapeto's picture

the use of small caps seems rather quaint
with most sans-serifs


Also, the present mania of fitting grotesque fonts
with true italics. Honest grotesques should have
obliques.

Bald Condensed's picture

Neutraface could give Futura a serious run for the money. I think it works amazingly well as both text and headline face, and it has all the trimmings, including small caps and true italics, loads of ligatures, alternate characters, 7 sets of numerals and whatnot. Yummy... Schwarz rules.

rcapeto's picture

Neutraface is well done but too art-d

rcapeto's picture

I wrote:
Interestingly, though Futura was designed 80 years before,
it does not.


Of course it couldn't look parodistic, being the real
thing. I mean: it doesn't look art-decoish, it doesn't
scream "1930!".

rcapeto's picture

it is not going to scream "art-deco", it is from
a totally different movement


Which "totally different movement", please?

I admit I haven't explored all the variants, but
the little I've seen is art-decoish enough. Not that
there's anything wrong with that, it's a question of
taste.

rcapeto's picture

Thanks, Stephen.

Dear "CB". I don't get what "joke" I could be having at
your expense. A quick glance at the 'Neutraface history'
link at House Industries tells a little about how C. Schwartz
used actual photographs of lettering used by Neutra in
his work. But you may know that architectural lettering
was influenced by art-d

rcapeto's picture

BTW, if one believes the theory that Futura was
in fact "copied" from the work of Ferdinand Kramer,
then it also is a typeface based on architectural
lettering!

I haven't read Christopher Burke's book, but I have a
copy of a magazine article with the sordid details.

CB, I see that I was misunderstanding what you said.
My point is: Futura is very much a product of its
time, indeed, but its structures have aged well and
remain fresh to this day, while art-d

hrant's picture

> Honest grotesques should have obliques.

It takes a man's man to say that these days.

hhp

rcapeto's picture

I think we agree, I just didn't understand
your linking Futura to art-deco


It seems there has been some mutual
misunderstanding, indeed... :-)
What I think is quite the opposite.

Anyway, about Futura: it's Walter Tracy,
I think, in his Letters of Credit, that
says that Futura became such a successful
and influential typeface exactly because
it got rid of the alternative, experimental
characters...
But the lowercase ("old-style") figures and
f-ligs are essential. Many moons ago (even
before the The Foundry version was released,
IIRC), I designed my own set of lc figures
and f ligatures to use with Futura.

saint's picture

Mister Univers lover.
If you really really want it. Then I can get it.

anonymous's picture

I believe the only digital Univers with the Et ampersand are the Linotype Univers and the BQ Univers. I think I agree with Jean-Francois about the Linotype Univers, something not quite right about it.

As Jean-Francois also alludes, Bitstream Zurich is obviously an unauthorised clone of the original.

If you really want the "proper" ampersand I don't really see any reason not to digitise your own, adding to the original Linotype/Adobe fonts (which are resonably good) - your original licence governs the redistribution. There are plenty of sources around for the artwork, including old Letraset catalogues (only available as rub-down lettering as far as I remember).

Tiffany, were you asking whether the Univers grid you referenced was an original? Hard to tell from your image, but there's lots of reprints of it in lots of books - I think even the A4 flyer/samples were reprinted, I've seen them in bookshops for a couple of quid.

Hmm, Futura, it's nice to see some of the more experimental, original forms, especially those "g"s.

Stephen Coles's picture

Hate to veer any further from the original topic, but here's more on Neutraface.

anonymous's picture

Of course it couldn't look parodistic, being the real thing. I mean: it doesn't look art-decoish, it doesn't scream "1930!".

Well it is not going to scream "art-deco", it is from a totally different movement - but it is definitely a product of its time, especially the more unusual character forms.

BTW, Neutraface wasn't designed 80 years after Futura, you should read the House web site for the background.

anonymous's picture

Rodolfo, I think you're having a joke at my expense, but just in case: Futura is influenced by the Bauhaus, a pretty good description here:

http://www.porcheztypo.com/Gazette/PTFHistoriqueTypo2Engl.html#bauhaus

Stephen Coles's picture

On the contrary, CB, I think Rodolfo is rather sincere.

I have found that anonymous posters are most often
more aggressive, malicious and lacking in tact than
those who have registered. Please prove me wrong.

anonymous's picture

Rodolfo, yes, I think we agree, I just didn't understand your linking Futura to art-deco - I think you're just meaning it's a product of its era, and art-deco and Bauhaus are of course contemporaneus (sp?).

With Neutraface, yes, there was no lowercase (AFAIK), so Christian designed his own to fit - I'm not sure on the origins of Neutra's lettering, but certainly it was in use in the 1950s. However, again, I'd say that the influence was Bauhaus/Modernism rather than art-deco.

Whichever, they both originate in the 1930s.

Stephen, I don't believe I have anything to prove - read Rudolfo's later post. As to names - well I tried my own name, but some villain has apparently pinched it - so it was a pseudonym whatever way I did it.

anonymous's picture

>Futura became such a successful
>and influential typeface exactly because
>it got rid of the alternative, experimental
>characters

I think that's probably close to the truth - we can probably consider that the experimental characters were exactly that, rather than something to be eventually used.

I actually used one of the "g" variants in a design project, had to cut it out of black paper - no one knew the face it originated from.

Also, if you look at some of the much later Futura variant/adaptions, I think it's clear that the experimental forms would not have been possible - even in the bold versions of The Foundry versions they look somewhat ungainly - think about an ultra-black condensed!?

I was reminded about something yesterday, about the Univers ampersand. I mailed Adobe about this a little while ago - you know of course that now the Adobe Univers is available as OpenType? Anyway, I remarked to them that a new digital Univers, without the "proper" ampersand, seemed like a missed opportunity to me - they could have had it as an alternate form.

I don't believe it's been changed.

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