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Univers BQ
Posted by lettertiep in
22 Jan 2003 — 8:07am
22 Jan 2003 — 8:07am
Hello,
I was looking on the web to find a version of Univers which I encountered some time ago, called 'Univers BQ'. I think this was a digital version from Berthold (but now it can't be found on their new site). It was a superior digitalisation than the Adobe/Linotype one (See also Detailtypografie by Forssman & de Jong). And it had the original &-sign!
I know there is something like the Neue Univers (with the new numbering system) from Linotype, but I don't like it as much as the old one. Could this old 'Univers BQ' version be for sale somewhere? 
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22 Jan 2003 — 9:55am
Bitstream's Zurich sports that ampersand.
22 Jan 2003 — 10:09am
http://www.typos.ch/Support/Missing_BQ/missing_bq.htm
the only relevant thing i can find is this link to a Typos web page about the "missing bq fonts;" the page is mainly in german and dictionary.com's german>english translator gives me the cryptic: "For above Berthold BQ Fonts the no more in the program is, requires you please proposals for solution over. Thanks." if you find this message mysterious and alluring there's a "support" email so you could try emailing them
23 Jan 2003 — 5:19am
The new Berthold Site is http://www.bertholdtypes.com
The typos site says: List of BQ Fonts from the original Berthold Type Collecion not in the current programm, because of licens reasons.
Note: The new Berhold Type Corporation has only the rights of the old phototypes form the original Berthold AG Berlin. Lots of other metal typefaces has Berthold AG / Bauer & Co published - not available form Berthold or any other sources.
23 Jan 2003 — 6:35am
So it's not available anymore? Who has the rights then for this version?
23 Jan 2003 — 7:43am
There's a very complicated legal battle going on, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of Berthold is in legal limbo for the moment. I'll see if I can find some more info for you, unless anyone else on the board knows the situation firsthand. That'd save me the trouble.
23 Jan 2003 — 8:00am
"How much is that doggie in the window?..."
;)
Sorry, Lettertiep, het was even sterker dan mezelf. Cute. See, Isaac? This is not creepy.
23 Jan 2003 — 7:13pm
i thought the dog was creepier than gw.
oh well, maybe i'll have time next week
to make a lekker new one. it just might
be that wicked ampersand from univers bq.
23 Jan 2003 — 7:13pm
i thought the dog was creepier than gw.
oh well, maybe i'll have time next week
to make a lekker new one. it just might
be that wicked ampersand from univers bq.
23 Jan 2003 — 7:15pm
oops. double.
23 Jan 2003 — 8:05pm
I found this type specimen last night digging around for Times New Roman information. If you scroll down, almost to the bottom, you'll see the Univers specimen. Does anyone know if this is original? My guess is yes by the name on the sample. Check out the ampersand.
Hey, It's GeeDubya ...
23 Jan 2003 — 8:09pm
AFTER finding my brain... forget the above. I'm gonna continue to dig.
***so embarassed***
It is Neue Haas Grotesk. I was confused. Drat! Blast!
23 Jan 2003 — 9:46pm
thanks for the link anyway. cool stuff.
say what you want about helvetica, hrant,
that poster is great. i've always thought
the univers chart was cool, but it's even
better in color. long may she wave.
23 Jan 2003 — 10:44pm
Peignot all the way, dude.
hhp
24 Jan 2003 — 1:37am
I tought the dog was less scarier than my face ;)
Anyway, nobody can buy a decent digital
24 Jan 2003 — 2:06am
Just as uncomfortable as not being able to purchase a license to a decent digital Annonce Gothic Extended, dude! CSA Images' "Bigford" comes close, though.
Not every typeface makes it to the screen, unfortunately. That's the harsh reality.
And trust me, Bitstream's version is mighty fine. I've got their full type collection on CD-ROM (that was actually my very first purchase as an independent (typo)graphic designer) and I can assure you their digitizations are top notch. Just compare their Zapf Humanist or Humanist Slabserif 712 to Adobe's version of Optima (not that I would use that face in a million years) or Egyptienne F. Suddenly, you'll realize that a lot of lines were meant to be oh so slightly curved, not straight.
24 Jan 2003 — 6:05am
Agree with Peter about quality of outlines but not about "Bitstream rights," hum.
Anyway, I'm here because of the Ampersand of Univers. The Second one is the original one made by Frutiger team at the time of Deberny and Peignot, then for US market (perhaps for the Monotype version in early days), they designed an alternative one such &.
voil
24 Jan 2003 — 8:54am
merci bien!
hmmm, too bad the version isn't around anymore. I compared it with the Zurich, which is indeed better than Adobe/Linotype, but I still like the Berthold version more. Maybe I should go for the neue Univers...
or for the new Akzidenz Grotesk (with the old style figures: lekker)... Let's go swiss ;)
BTW, what was Erik van Bloklands quote again about the digitalisation of the adobe Univers?
24 Jan 2003 — 4:10pm
Neue Univers from Linotype show too much contrast to my eyes, particularly in intermediates weights, due to not enough control of interpolation I think.
24 Jan 2003 — 7:17pm
Tiffany,
Thanks for the link to the 'modern' typefaces. The Foundry
24 Jan 2003 — 7:34pm
Paul,
Thanks for the link. If you are interested in the history behind either Renner or Futura, you really need to read Chris Burke's book about none other than Paul Renner. Imagine that. Sorry, sarcasm intended it has been one of those days. Thanks for the image too. The ligatures are very cool. I always wished I had a g in my name so i could use that wacky alternat.
24 Jan 2003 — 7:34pm
Paul,
Thanks for the link. If you are interested in the history behind either Renner or Futura, you really need to read Chris Burke's book about none other than Paul Renner. The chapter on the Futura type alone, makes it well worth the money.
Imagine that. Sorry, sarcasm intended it has been one of those days. Thanks for the image too. The ligatures are very cool. I always wished I had a g in my name so i could use that wacky alternate.
24 Jan 2003 — 7:36pm
Here is a quote attributed to Renner, very interesting:
"The truly Modern, that is, the undistorted expression of an objective zeitgeist, is only what we hold today to be timelessly perfect. This is not the same in all periods, because the insight into the timelessly valid changes from generation to generation."
Sorry about the double post.
24 Jan 2003 — 7:44pm
> I always wished I had a g in my name
Make up a middle name for yourself!
Like "Evangelista" or something.
hhp
24 Jan 2003 — 8:12pm
Hi Tiffany,
I've got the Renner book, and I've read it cover-to-cover. I'm enough of a geek that I've read the biographies of Renner, Bruce Rogers, Jan Tschichold, Baskerville, Goudy, and probably a couple of others. I've thought of writing an article or short biography of W.A. Dwiggins.
I had at one time thought of making up my own custom version of Futura, just because I was intrigued by the alternate characters, then I discovered that The Foundry had already done it.
You don't have a
24 Jan 2003 — 9:04pm
the funky upside-down y as an a is pretty cool.
i haven't seen these alternates before. this
is turning into a very informative thread.
and why can't you spell your name tiffang?
it's your name, eh.
25 Jan 2003 — 1:03am
Isaac, PLEASE! Another yucky picture... Who the flying firetruck is that?
2 Feb 2003 — 9:57am
Isaac,
The alternative letters are pretty fun. Since Futura has so many round shapes, you can substitute an alternate a, for instance, in a word like page, where you would otherwise have three circles one-after-another. Having read Hrant's pages, I would now say that this improves the Bouma. The alternative characters can break the pattern, and even substituting a single letter can radically change the look of Futura.
There were originally several other characters
3 Feb 2003 — 5:13am
I realize that I
3 Feb 2003 — 5:20am
the use of small caps seems rather quaint
with most sans-serifs
Also, the present mania of fitting grotesque fonts
with true italics. Honest grotesques should have
obliques.
3 Feb 2003 — 8:23am
Neutraface could give Futura a serious run for the money. I think it works amazingly well as both text and headline face, and it has all the trimmings, including small caps and true italics, loads of ligatures, alternate characters, 7 sets of numerals and whatnot. Yummy... Schwarz rules.
3 Feb 2003 — 10:46am
Neutraface is well done but too art-d
3 Feb 2003 — 10:55am
I wrote:
Interestingly, though Futura was designed 80 years before,
it does not.
Of course it couldn't look parodistic, being the real
thing. I mean: it doesn't look art-decoish, it doesn't
scream "1930!".
3 Feb 2003 — 12:26pm
it is not going to scream "art-deco", it is from
a totally different movement
Which "totally different movement", please?
I admit I haven't explored all the variants, but
the little I've seen is art-decoish enough. Not that
there's anything wrong with that, it's a question of
taste.
3 Feb 2003 — 1:05pm
Thanks, Stephen.
Dear "CB". I don't get what "joke" I could be having at
your expense. A quick glance at the 'Neutraface history'
link at House Industries tells a little about how C. Schwartz
used actual photographs of lettering used by Neutra in
his work. But you may know that architectural lettering
was influenced by art-d
3 Feb 2003 — 1:30pm
BTW, if one believes the theory that Futura was
in fact "copied" from the work of Ferdinand Kramer,
then it also is a typeface based on architectural
lettering!
I haven't read Christopher Burke's book, but I have a
copy of a magazine article with the sordid details.
CB, I see that I was misunderstanding what you said.
My point is: Futura is very much a product of its
time, indeed, but its structures have aged well and
remain fresh to this day, while art-d
3 Feb 2003 — 1:42pm
> Honest grotesques should have obliques.
It takes a man's man to say that these days.
hhp
4 Feb 2003 — 9:18am
I think we agree, I just didn't understand
your linking Futura to art-deco
It seems there has been some mutual
misunderstanding, indeed...
What I think is quite the opposite.
Anyway, about Futura: it's Walter Tracy,
I think, in his Letters of Credit, that
says that Futura became such a successful
and influential typeface exactly because
it got rid of the alternative, experimental
characters...
But the lowercase ("old-style") figures and
f-ligs are essential. Many moons ago (even
before the The Foundry version was released,
IIRC), I designed my own set of lc figures
and f ligatures to use with Futura.
4 Feb 2003 — 10:12am
Mister Univers lover.
If you really really want it. Then I can get it.
3 Feb 2003 — 7:32am
I believe the only digital Univers with the Et ampersand are the Linotype Univers and the BQ Univers. I think I agree with Jean-Francois about the Linotype Univers, something not quite right about it.
As Jean-Francois also alludes, Bitstream Zurich is obviously an unauthorised clone of the original.
If you really want the "proper" ampersand I don't really see any reason not to digitise your own, adding to the original Linotype/Adobe fonts (which are resonably good) - your original licence governs the redistribution. There are plenty of sources around for the artwork, including old Letraset catalogues (only available as rub-down lettering as far as I remember).
Tiffany, were you asking whether the Univers grid you referenced was an original? Hard to tell from your image, but there's lots of reprints of it in lots of books - I think even the A4 flyer/samples were reprinted, I've seen them in bookshops for a couple of quid.
Hmm, Futura, it's nice to see some of the more experimental, original forms, especially those "g"s.
3 Feb 2003 — 9:50am
Hate to veer any further from the original topic, but here's more on Neutraface.
3 Feb 2003 — 11:25am
Of course it couldn't look parodistic, being the real thing. I mean: it doesn't look art-decoish, it doesn't scream "1930!".
Well it is not going to scream "art-deco", it is from a totally different movement - but it is definitely a product of its time, especially the more unusual character forms.
BTW, Neutraface wasn't designed 80 years after Futura, you should read the House web site for the background.
3 Feb 2003 — 12:44pm
Rodolfo, I think you're having a joke at my expense, but just in case: Futura is influenced by the Bauhaus, a pretty good description here:
http://www.porcheztypo.com/Gazette/PTFHistoriqueTypo2Engl.html#bauhaus
3 Feb 2003 — 12:53pm
On the contrary, CB, I think Rodolfo is rather sincere.
I have found that anonymous posters are most often
more aggressive, malicious and lacking in tact than
those who have registered. Please prove me wrong.
4 Feb 2003 — 7:05am
Rodolfo, yes, I think we agree, I just didn't understand your linking Futura to art-deco - I think you're just meaning it's a product of its era, and art-deco and Bauhaus are of course contemporaneus (sp?).
With Neutraface, yes, there was no lowercase (AFAIK), so Christian designed his own to fit - I'm not sure on the origins of Neutra's lettering, but certainly it was in use in the 1950s. However, again, I'd say that the influence was Bauhaus/Modernism rather than art-deco.
Whichever, they both originate in the 1930s.
Stephen, I don't believe I have anything to prove - read Rudolfo's later post. As to names - well I tried my own name, but some villain has apparently pinched it - so it was a pseudonym whatever way I did it.
4 Feb 2003 — 9:49am
>Futura became such a successful
>and influential typeface exactly because
>it got rid of the alternative, experimental
>characters
I think that's probably close to the truth - we can probably consider that the experimental characters were exactly that, rather than something to be eventually used.
I actually used one of the "g" variants in a design project, had to cut it out of black paper - no one knew the face it originated from.
Also, if you look at some of the much later Futura variant/adaptions, I think it's clear that the experimental forms would not have been possible - even in the bold versions of The Foundry versions they look somewhat ungainly - think about an ultra-black condensed!?
I was reminded about something yesterday, about the Univers ampersand. I mailed Adobe about this a little while ago - you know of course that now the Adobe Univers is available as OpenType? Anyway, I remarked to them that a new digital Univers, without the "proper" ampersand, seemed like a missed opportunity to me - they could have had it as an alternate form.
I don't believe it's been changed.