Archive through January 18, 2003

anonymous's picture

Why not make the future conferences in: Turkey, Croratia, Hungary... and so on (and I don't mean only Europe)? Just an idea. It might cut the costs drastically.

Do not take me wrong here for I'm not taking any sides. I sense a bit of good will and a bit of of cynical pride too.

Nevertheless, totally agree w Anonymous.

John Hudson's picture

Tanya wrote: The goal of the Org should be to keep profits down to 0.

You'll be glad to know that ATypI has been extremely successful in meeting this goal for many years. Unfortunately, this is often due to lack of revenue, rather than because revenue has been spent on providing resources to members. This is what I mean when I say that ATypI needs to increase revenue from membership fees, and in any other way it can, in order to improve its operational effectiveness. Every year, we get together and discuss all the things we would like to do to provide members with more benefits; we even make plans. Then we go back to our jobs, and over the course of the next year we're lucky if enough volunteer time is available to do a 20% of the things we discussed doing. Ideally, I would like to see ATypI in a position to make grants available to subsidise worthwhile projects that will benefit all type designers and typographers. Unless we find ways to increase revenues, this is unlikely ever to happen. I agree with Hrant that finding ways to make membership available to designers in countries with developing, unstable or depressed economies can have a positive impact on both the culture of the association and on its finances. While Tanya's idea is interesting and creative, I think it would distract the already over-extended volunteers who keep the association ticking. We need to find more efficient solutions, not more complex ones.

John Hudson's picture

Hrant writes: Well, "We have members in over 40 nations", but from going to 3 conferences ... it looks like maybe 90% are from Europe and North America.

I did some analysis of membership figures today (I don't have the latest figures yet, or a breakdown of full vs. student membership by country), and can report that 90% of members not only come from Europe and North America but, more specifically from countries in the top 26 nations ranked by GNI per capita. This convinces me that adjusting membership fees relative to this index is both viable and desirable.

I reject the idea that ATypI is 'geographically elitist': the figures I provide are explained by the historical origins of the association in an Anglo-European type industry. I've argued for a long time that the demise of that industry provides a positive opportunity for reform and renewal in the association; unfortunately, the demise of the industry has also produced the financial difficulties that make such reform and renewal a slow process. It has been too slow, and I intend to do whatever I can to invite membership from a more truly international community.

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion, which has prompted me to take a close look at the membership issue relative to national economic indicators.

John Hudson's picture

the rich get educated

Well, the rich get diplomas: they don't necessarily get educated in the process.

We seem to have about three different discussions going on in this thread now. I'm not sure to which one this message contributes, if any.

delgadovic's picture

what i mean is i want to ascend to the heights of an "ascender" member but i have to wait for payday. btw thanx for the opinion on Roisin i just posted the hair weight but of course it is a full superfamily...

jfp's picture

Thanks for translations!

(Bensonfish translation: ...There are poor people in rich countries, and there are rich people in poor countries. Designers aren't usually the most rich or the most poor...)

My point with this early comment that if you built different prices by countries, we will have immediatly more complains from actual members who can't afford as "poor in rich countries" when others will have lower price.

Its difficult to set up various prices depending countries, very complicate, take time, so this new idea really need to be strongly built in way the balance move to the correct side to achieve that idea.

This problem in some aspect similar as if you set up various value of a vote depending from where you came from: cities, surburb, country side. Its not democratical at all, I think.

matha_standun's picture

A quick word to Jean Fran

Ramiro Espinoza's picture

>>ATypI cannot subsidise membership based on
>>locality, and South America is *NOT*
>>the third world.

Ufff!!
Another CNN freak...

Ramiro.

hrant's picture

> I've never seen Papazian volunter for much

You haven't been paying attention.
What about you? Who are you? We don't know.

> Last time I checked there were somewhere
> around 40 nations in Europe alone. Is there
> some non-sequiter I'm missing?

Of course: you can -and do- have 100 members from a European country, but 2 from a South-East Asian one.

> more specifically from countries in the top 26 nations ranked by GNI per capita.

A useful stat, thanks much.

> we will have immediatly more complains from actual members

Complaint, shmonplaint. How many of them would actually leave?

And I think Matha has a point: lack of affluence is often coupled with having more free time.

hhp

matha_standun's picture

> And I think Matha has a point: lack of
> affluence is often coupled with having more
> free time.

True, but my main point was that ATypI is not taking advantage of the skills of its members. We're all enthusistic enough about type to pay our membership fees and, rich or poor, we all have some free time. With a little imagination money becomes less of a problem.

Matha.

hrant's picture

> ATypI is not taking advantage of the skills of its members.

On the other hand, there really isn't enough volunteerism.

Last year I did a very challenging (to me) translation of a French article into English (gratis), for publication in our next Journal... but now it seems there's not enough [free] manpower to actually put the thing out!

--

John, nice "summary".

hhp

hrant's picture

> Porchez and Hudson know the score here.

You keep saying that, but it's very clear they're not in agreement!
Are you listening to anything besides the voices in your head?

hhp

johnbutler's picture

I am not an ATypI member, but I can answer your question.

No, ATypI is not elitist.

hrant's picture

I agree, elitist is not the right word/idea.
But some members are jingoistic. Or just dense.

hhp

hrant's picture

I've been a member only since '99, and I've done a number of other things.
Who are you?

Historically, shmistorically. There should be more non--European/North_American members in ATypI, and since the economic inequality is a barrier to that, we should try to circumvent it. Read what John just wrote.

> One might equally cite the lack of winners from outside South East Asia in the kanji section of the Morisawa competition

You must be the same anonyrat who thought Mandarin is a writing system... You should get out more.

BTW, did you notice the disproportionate amount of South American presence in this year's Morisawa, which is free to enter? And their absense in the TDC competition, which is expensive? Get it?

> they should be increased, significantly

For you and your ilk, most definitely.

hhp

John Hudson's picture

Hrant writes: You keep saying that, but it's very clear they're not in agreement!

Broadly, I think Jean-Fran

hrant's picture

Dear this form is busted,
You have now disqualified yourself from deserving an answer.
Congratulations, very people are capable of that feat.

hhp

anonymous's picture

>Why not make the future conferences in:
>Turkey, Croratia, Hungary...

I think there was or is some proposal for Prague, but the main thing, and a cursory glance at previous venues will tell you this, someone has to be in place in the host town to organise:

Boston: FontBureau crew
Den Haag: Royal Acadamie crew
Lyon: JFP & co
Copenhagen: Torben's team
Reading: Reading Uni type dept
Vancouver: Tiro
...

Someone has to be on hand to both know the type "scene" and build a relationship locally. ATypI runs on people being volunteers (BTW, I've never seen Papazian volunter for much, despite all the effort he puts into being a mouthpiece).

I really don't understand how people could come to any other conclusion, even a cursory view of the accounts shows this.

So, anyway, get someone to be organiser in Split, Rio or Havana and I'm sure the global type cartel will be more than happy to travel.

If the South Americans are serious they should be trying to get the conference to go there, to raise the profile. Self-help, that's what it's all about.


Papazian:
>Well, "We have members in over 40 nations",
>but from going to 3 conferences (5 less than
>John, I think - although I've been a member
>about a year longer than him :-) it looks like
> maybe 90% are from Europe and North America.

Last time I checked there were somewhere around 40 nations in Europe alone. Is there some non-sequiter I'm missing?

anonymous's picture

Papazian:
>Most ATypI members are not arrogant, provincial, gutless idiots.

Is that a poor attempt at a pangram, or are you just putting yourself down again?

anonymous's picture

i just hope hhp didnt really think the key-hitting neardenthal was carlos or ramiro, or even me...
you should just focus on the atypi thing instead of hitting on our delicate third-world country soul

just kidding

sentimiento de inferioridad...
no nos pelen! (a very popular chilango expression that means nevermind) centuries of cultural opression cant be simply erased by paying a membership fee


posted as anonymous because im not permitted in this elitist area

no me pelen!

anonymous's picture

Tanya:
>They don't hand out diplomas simply for paying your way.

That is pretty much exactly what "they" do - the rich get educated, the poor do without. And the more "raving capitalist pig bastard" the country you live in the truer that is.

anonymous's picture

but why should we get "educated" on such an artform as typography? The techical knowledge is always there, you just grab the software or copy the tutorials or come to forums like this. The thing is that there is always the money issue but in reality the outcome is what counts. Besides, the more we pay for commercial events the bigger the names we help to make (only the names in some cases...) when there are a lot of excellent designers who have their work being sold by the majors but whose names are never around the events circuit...
anyway

Art is always going to be art and type is no exception.
Thank god we still have a way of going it about with out font creations under our shoulder even without a degree.

im victor yb from mexico, disguised as an anonymous. (yes i know i have to spare some buck to the forum but i dont have $$$ right now. i promise i'll do it at the end of the month (they pay me monthly, you know...) please dont throw me out. hi to everybody

Stephen Coles's picture

Victor - While your offer to sponsor Typophile is generous and appreciated,
I want to be sure you know that registration to post on this forum is free.

anonymous's picture

Martha:
>True, but my main point was that ATypI is not
>taking advantage of the skills of its members.

This is nonsense, you volunteer, you don't get drafted. You want to volunteer then do so, otherwise I don't see the complaint.

Porchez and Hudson know the score here. In any such organisation you've probably got about a dozen people working their arses off making things happen while all around the mmbership is saying "there should be more, for less", or "I would help out if I could but I'm really rather busy".

Sorry, I've got no sympathy for your apparent failure to act on your desire to be a cog in the machine - likewise with all the other whiners.

anonymous's picture

Ramiro:
Tiffany: comparing your standard with the life of persons who live in a country where there are thousands of children really starving, you're living the high life...
-------

This is just hypocrisy. You know of thousands of children starving in your locale and you come here whining about needing support from ATypI - you need support from UNICEF or the world bank or something.

Please consider giving up your internet connection and donating what you save to those poor children!

anonymous's picture

>You haven't been paying attention.

Sorry, you translated one article in being ten years as a member. Was that your claim to fame?

>What about you? Who are you? We don't know.

I've done my bit - no worries there - for ATypI and other organisations.

>Of course: you can -and do- have 100 members
>from a European country, but 2 from a
>South-East Asian one.

Given that the organisation we are talking about is historically based in "the west" and on the Roman typographic tradition I don't find this at all surprising.

One might equally cite the lack of winners from outside South East Asia in the kanji section of the Morisawa competition or the few "westerners" taking Japanese or Arabic calligraphy classes.

Though I wouldn't bother since there is clearly no point to such comparisons.

As far as ATypI fees go I think they should be increased, significantly.

anonymous's picture

>I've been a member only since '99,

Sorry, my mistake, I was counting from another reference - but then I remembered the reference was false.

>and I've done a number of other things.

Please tell us all about them, to show us how this volunteerism works. Did you help organise a conference, develop the new web site, set up the mailing list, layout the newsletter, write plenty of articles (by jove you certainly seem to have the time for it), take student members and guide them towards the light, help at registrations during the conference...

What?

>Who are you?

My point to you, who are you? Exactly?

You are the Hrant with your swagger and Kalashnikov. But aside from that how do you contribute - lay bare the facts.

>Historically, shmistorically. There should be
>more non--European/North_American members in
>ATypI, and since the economic inequality is a
>barrier to that, we should try to circumvent it.

The barrier is not monetary. The barrier is that the org is fairly script-centric - there's pretty much no interest in it for other than Roman scripts and vice versa.


> You must be the same anonyrat who thought
> Mandarin is a writing system...

No clue what you're on about.

>BTW, did you notice the disproportionate
>amount of South American presence in this year's
>Morisawa, which is free to enter?
>And their absense in the TDC competition,
>which isexpensive? Get it?

Please read what I wrote again, in the *kanji* section of the competition - dumbass!

What's your inference, they'd rather send parcels to Tokyo than New York?

What's the comparative postage?

>For you and your ilk, most definitely.

Papazian, you know nothing.

anonymous's picture

Papazian:
>You keep saying that, but it's very clear
>they're not in agreement!

Take an English class, gain some comprehansion skills.

Hudson and Porchez know very well that 5% of the membership does 95% of the work.

hrant's picture

Just so nobody's confused:
Most ATypI members are not arrogant, provincial, gutless idiots.

hhp

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