Snow Leopard is not compatible with PostScript Type 1 Fonts?

Miss Tiffany's picture

I haven't upgraded to Snow Leopard yet. This thread on the Apple forums gives me even more reason not to upgrade. I'm curious how things are going for those of you that have upgraded to Snow Leopard and still have oodles of PS1 fonts (like me). The problem doesn't seem to be with only PS1 fonts though. :^\

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2136944&start=0&tstart=0

Theunis de Jong's picture

Just in case this is true -- my office is also looking forward to Snow Lep --, someone at Adobe said (imagine here a black mask, heavy breathing) "I Have Foreseen It."

If you copy your Type 1 fonts into one of the Creative Suite apps in a folder named 'Fonts', they are available in that particular application. Windows users also have a "Shared" Adobe folder; fonts put in there can be used in any of the CS apps, and I imagine Macs have something alike.

Miss Tiffany's picture

So you haven't upgraded yet? I really want to hear from someone who has upgraded. I did know about putting the fonts in the Adobe font folder, but is that really what Snow Leopard users are going to have to do?

Si_Daniels's picture

I asked Peter at Apple - his reply...

"I believe the issue is the many-many relationship between some suitcases and their lwfn postscript files.

If users have T1 font families with simple suicase--lwfn relations, they work OK AFAIK."

Miguel Sousa's picture

@Si - But that doesn't explain the reports that mention TrueType and OpenType fonts.

Could the logic behind handling of the font's vertical metrics have changed in Snow Leopard?

Si_Daniels's picture

I'll send him another ping.

Cheers, Si

SuperUltraFabulous's picture

Simon>>> Who is this Peter at Apple?

Si_Daniels's picture

Peter Lofting - he's the long-time font guy at Apple...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LastResort#Apple.27s_LastResort_font

Miguel Sousa's picture

Yep, "Font guy" is actually his title. Seriously.

.00's picture

FWIW my Illustrator 10 still works on Snow Leopard, and my Multiple Master fonts still work in Illustrator 10.

Bert Vanderveen's picture

The single suitcase issue has been around forever. Smasher is just the tool for that.

I have been on SnoLeo for two weeks now and have not seen any issues re fonts, but mind: I do not have a production set-up.

My fairly shallow tests with CS4 apps have not resulted in unsurmountable issues.

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

Miss Tiffany's picture

Bert, James, did you both read the thread on Apple? I'm very paranoid now. I don't want to upgrade. But it is nice to hear some haven't seen the problem.

Christopher Slye's picture

Interesting quote from that article: "Kurt Lang, author of a detailed examination of how fonts work in OS X, says the cause of all the problems is simple: Type 1 fonts are no longer supported by Mac OS X."

dezcom's picture

"...the problems is simple: Type 1 fonts are no longer supported by Mac OS X.”

Nice of Apple to clue us in on this little tidbit :-(

ChrisL

dezcom's picture

I still have an older G-5 with a PPC chip so I can't upgrade to Snow Leopard but this sure makes my decision to NOT buy a new Mac for a few more years!

ChrisL

Sicko's picture

So, now you'll need to buy all your fonts again (sooner or later). and again in a couple of years.
Good for font designers. Right? Too bad I'm not one of those.

Theunis de Jong's picture

One computer installed, 3 more to go -- but, hey, we're in no hurry. No problem so far with any font -- we didn't try very hard, as we had other fish to fry.

Item: Safari's Java is not compatible with Java applets we have to use to upload. Firefox works fine, but .. what the 'eck?

Item: printing to a Postscript file, using Adobe's PPD, is not dead -- well, not for us. That option disappeared from InDesign! Some web searching provided the answer: copy the Adobe PPD from your old (yes...) OS 10.5 Library/Printers/Contents/.. (some more path) and paste into Snowie. Works again.

Sigh. I'll let you know when we get to the fonts. The guys at the office are not extremely impressed, so far.

charles ellertson's picture

Pheau. Perhaps it's time to open a window? Relax & enjoy the vista?

Miguel Sousa's picture

Item: Safari’s Java is not compatible with Java applets we have to use to upload. Firefox works fine, but .. what the ’eck?

AFAIK, Safari runs in 64-bit mode by default. That could be the issue, since I know it's a problem for the Acrobat Reader plug-in. You can switch Safari to run in 32-bit mode, though.

mili's picture

Chris, I'm in the same boat. Actually I only just upgraded to Leopard. It was the last minute, they were already in the back room to be taken away (it was the first day of Snow Leopard)

blank's picture

Relax & enjoy the vista?

Vista doesn’t completely support Type 1 either.

Can Mac users still put the Type 1 fonts into the …/application support/fonts directory to make them to work?

So, now you’ll need to buy all your fonts again (sooner or later). and again in a couple of years.

Of course designers would do well to remember that thirty years ago if they wanted to buy fonts they had to buy expensive photo-typesetting machine to use them, find somewhere to put the machines, and a large family could run thousands of dollars, etc.. Right now a designer in the US can buy the entire Adobe Font Folio collection for what it used to cost to buy the Helvetica family.

dezcom's picture

Mili,

I never switched to Leopard. I am still using Tiger. It didn't seem to be worth the switch. Tiger has been very solid for me. Let me know how Leopard behaves for you?

Cheers!

ChrisL

paragraph's picture

Chris, I just switched my work box from Tiger to plain vanilla Leopard (not Snow), because my Tiger computer refused to exchange files with my Leopard computer (Mac Book Air). Everything now works just fine.

On a related, but lighter, note: Is it not a strange marketing/branding strategy to call your OSes after increasingly more endangered, rarer beasts? What next, the smilodon?

dezcom's picture

If any of the Apple OS Felines lock up, you can say they are in a catatonic state :-)

ChrisL

.00's picture

Always go towards the bright white light!

paragraph's picture

Like this?

Sye's picture

I don't use Quark or any Type 1 fonts, only CS4 and OT/TT and i've had not probs so far on SL.

mili's picture

Chris,

I upgraded to CS4 at the same time, so it's hard to tell if something happens because the OS or the application. My old Illustrator was acting up before, but now things are pretty smooth. An odd crash here and there and there's been a couple of total freezes. For those I suspect my daughter's computer habits, Messenger et al…

mili's picture

Oh, I forgot. With the older Leopard + PCC +CS4 combo the FEx doesn't seem to keep fonts activated all the time. There's also some fuss about Helvetica Neue 3, it being used by the OS

Arlo Vance's picture

The only font trouble I've had so far (currently using Snow Leopard) is the age old conflict with Helvetica Neue. When I tried the workaround: deleting the system font and it's auto-replace file, it screwed up every other font not in the system folder, so I had to revert.

dezcom's picture

Thanks, Mili!
Children do have a way of "finding" glitches :-)

ChrisL

Corey Holms's picture

Arlo - I have the same problem here. Drives me crazy.
Other than that, no issues that I've noticed since the transition.

Jens Kutilek's picture

I did a quick test using the Type1 version of FF Milo Text. On-screen rendering and linespacing in TextEdit is exactly the same in 10.5.8 and 10.6.1. — FWIW

Thomas Phinney's picture

Jens, are you using any font management app to activate the fonts? Which one?

One thing I'm curious to dig into is this: if Peter's description is correct, fonts managed and activated by Suitcase Fusion 2 or Universal Type Server might be immune to the problem, as they separate font suitcases automatically as part of how they activate fonts....

Regards,

T

Jens Kutilek's picture

Thomas, I just put the font files into my ~/Library/Fonts/ folder.

As far as I know, for Mac Type 1 FontFonts, each style had its own suitcase file. The reason was that you could licence every style individually.

Here is a comparison: I typed the some text in TextEdit on 10.5.8 and opened it in 10.6.1 and made a PDF via Print -> Save as PDF. I rendered these PDFs in Photoshop and stacked them as two layers in this file: type1-10.5.psd.

Milo has a single suitcase for 1 style, while Univers has 2 suitcases for 8 styles.

The only difference I see is that TextEdit on 10.6.1 doesn't seem to apply kerning (it does for OpenType fonts, though). The bad clipping issue (ÄÖÜ cut off in the first line) occurs in both ...

nina's picture

Thanks for that, Jens. Good to hear that Mac Type 1 FontFonts should be OK.
I wonder, do the people who report no problems here use Type 1 fonts too?
(I'm overdue for a new Mac… :-\ )

Thomas Phinney's picture

Jens: Well, that seems to support Peter's comments. Lucky for FontShop and FontFont users that they happen to have dodged the line-spacing change.

Which makes me all the more curious about whether using Suitcase Fusion or Universal Type Server avoids this problem. Basically these applications split up font suitcases down to individual fonts when you bring them in to the app, and keep them separated when you activate the fonts. In THEORY, that ought to dodge the line spacing problem. Again, an unintended side effect, but rather fortunate if true.

The lost kerning is interesting and unfortunate. Can anybody confirm if the same problem happens in QuarkXPress?

Thanks,

T

DrDoc's picture

I've had no trouble with my Type 1 fonts, but I don't know as much about differentiating between the different technologies as most of you do. For context, I'm running CS3 on Mac OS X 10.6 using Linotype FontExplorer X version 1.2.3.

ryanholmes's picture

It seems there are two potential issues from the above discussion if I read the comments correctly: vertical metrics and perhaps, kerning problems. The second one I haven't seen as much commentary on but I view it as much more troubling: why would the OS not correctly read a plain kern table that appears in every T1 font? That one needs to get resolved.

For the former, a likely explanation is that the T1 fonts have always used a different calculation for ascender/descender total dimensions in determining vertical metrics, compared to TT fonts and now, OTF. In fact, FontLab has a screen for that exact thing, and an easy check if this is the explanation would be the following:

Open one of the T1 fonts causing a problem in Snow Leopard in FontLab. Go to the vertical metrics page under font info, and observe the ascender/descender dimensions as-shown. Hit the recalculate button. If new numbers appear--and those WOULD be the vertical metrics used were it a TT or OTF font--then that is surely the explanation for the leading problem in SL. When you use default leading options like "single-spaced" in software such as Word, TextEdit et al., the OS uses these global vertical metrics in determining line spacing. In the SL code rewrite, they are pulling that info from the OTF-method and not the former T1-method.

This could be confirmed one other way as well--for one of your T1 fonts in SL with a reflow problem, use an exact-point size leading option in your software (e.g., exactly 14 points) instead of a leading option based on the global vertical metrics (e.g., single-spaced, or 0.8 times single-spaced). If my reasoning is the explanation, then the former will not have the vertical padding problem and the source of this glitch will be identified.

Unfortunately, unless Apple is willing to patch the OS code to pull the metrics data using the old approach for T1 fonts, there would seem to be no workaround short of reformatting your old documents, or converting the T1 fonts to OTF. And if you did the latter, and you "fixed" the discrepancy between the T1 and TT/OTF methods for calculating vertical metrics, you'd STILL need to reformat your legacy document anyway. So either way, it involves needless work for the T1 font user--but at least you don't NEED to repurchase your T1 fonts just because they are not in OTF format.

I welcome all comments on my faulty logic, I'm just brainstorming in this lengthy post.........and I DO want SL because it really jazzes up my Apple TV :-)

Mark Simonson's picture

Just speculating here.... Mac PostScript Type 1 fonts are comprised of two files, one containing the PS outline data and basic metrics (the sidebearings) and the other, a Mac "suitcase" file containing the kerning, style linking and other metrics data. Could it be that Snow Leopard is getting all its info from the outline file and ignoring the suitcase file? That would explain the lack of kerning and possibly the line spacing discrepancy for some fonts. Perhaps Snow Leopard needs the .afm file as well (which was needed for programs that couldn't get the metrics from the font suitcase)? Like I said, just speculating.

Mark Simonson's picture

I think I may be onto something. I opened the PS outline file and the Mac suitcase file of one of my old Mac PS Type 1 fonts separately in FontLab. The vertical metrics did not match!

Vertical metrics in outline file (also same in .afm):
Ascender = 667
Descender = 193

Vertical metrics in suitcase file:
Ascender = 753
Descender = 248

This was a font built with Fontographer back in the Nineties.

Not sure is this is related to the Snow Leopard problem, but it's interesting.

Thomas Phinney's picture

To be more explicit: as Ryan says, it looks like there are two different symptoms (line spacing changes and potentially dropped kerning). They doubtless have similar causes, but it is possible that as Mark speculates one *might* be able to work around the line spacing problem by modifying the fonts. I doubt there would be any such solution for the kerning going away.

Mark, why don't you try modifying the LWFN outline file so the vertical metrics match those in the FFIL suitcase file? I'd do it myself, but I have guests to attend to, both my Macs are at work, and I have not upgraded either of them to Snow Leopard, for increasingly good reasons....

(I'll be surprised if Snow Leopard suddenly pays attention to AFMs, though.)

Regards,

T

Mark Simonson's picture

I would do some tests, but I've been holding off upgrading to Snow Leopard. Maybe I'll make the leap on one of my machines and try some things out.

The reason I mentioned the AFM thing is the MacOS X's roots in the Next OS, which did use AFM files. It wouldn't surprise me if MacOS X inherited support for AFMs from Next.

Thomas Phinney's picture

Possible, but I'd be surprised if that was still there.

BTW, it occurs to me that of course it may be a different version of TextEdit on 10.6 than on 10.5.x, and it wouldn't surprise me if the kerning loss was a TextEdit issue rather than strictly an OS issue. I'll be curious to hear if that problem occurs in other apps, and if so which ones. Word? QuarkXPress? Flash? (InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop should be immune.)

Regards,

T

Miguel Sousa's picture

People that are running into this issue and want to see it addressed by Apple should log bugs into their database at http://bugreport.apple.com/
You will need a free AppleID account, if you don't have one yet.

Jens Kutilek's picture

I'm sorry, I have don't have either Word, Flash or QuarkXpress to test it ...

TextEdit version numbers do differ, 1.5 and 1.6.

Mark Simonson's picture

I've upgraded to Snow Leopard on one machine and tested my hypothesis about AFM files: Installing AFM files has no effect on the lack of kerning with Type 1 fonts in Text Edit on 10.6.1. In my other machine, which is running 10.5.8, kerning works in Text Edit for the same Type 1 fonts.

Mark Simonson's picture

Oh, and I did note a slight difference in the vertical position of the glyphs. They start slightly higher up on the page in Text Edit on Snow Leopard, although the line spacing seems identical.

Thomas Phinney's picture

We did some more testing today at Extensis:

We saw a major shift in first baseline position for some Type 1 fonts in Snow Leopard compared to Leopard, in QuarkXPress 8.1. In this case, they were lower in Snow Leopard, rather than higher as in the case Mark describes.

Contrary to what I would have expected, given the info from Peter Lofting, activating the fonts with Suitcase Fusion 2 did not make the problem go away. So I'm unclear on whether splitting up suitcases can help.

Regards,

T

Carsten Warnich's picture

Ohhh, this is bad karma...

Snow Leopard / Type 1 problems also occur in Adobe CS4 Flash.
With Futura Light and other Futura fonts leading is way off.

Converting fonts doesn't help.
Adjusting vertical metrics unsuccessful so far.
Renaming Futura Std fonts so the 'Std' part disappears doesn't do the trick either.

I'm the only Snow Leopard in an organization with loads and loads of Flash, InDesign and PhotoShop content in - you guessed it - Futura Light.

I'm forced to revert to Leopard.
Damn this is SO not Apple.
Wonder if good old Steve has OK'ed the Type 1 stunt?

Carsten

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