Chris,

Gerald, keep making the beautiful type you are making and let the young tech. jockeys of today ready it for the next "new" thing. It is like turning your drawings over to a punch cutter, you get to challenge them and speak your mind but they have to do the dirty work of cutting steel.

Actually Chris, not all is lost. I was thinking about this yesterday, meaning to ask you what your thoughts are. Remember when we were young and it was the philosophy of the day.

"Don't trust anyone over thirty".

It has taken me many years to find truth to that wisdom. We were right.

Some of these young kids are great, they actually listen and care about what you have to say. They are not as much interested in the Bells & Whistles of the Radio Tube Generation that keeps creeping up our butts. But they care about the arts.

Or lets call it beauty and the traditional values, there is that young fellow in New Zealand for instance. His logo with the "K". Good kid, and that fine "a" fellow from Italy, absolute gold. For me they are everything, a chance to pass down values. Chris you should remember that most of my life Lithography and Photocomp were well established. I did not participate in any of that. I never produced a single job in my entire life by either method. I am not a techno-junkie, I leave that to the "Buck Rogers" of the world. Especially when it is so clearly inferior, clearly misdirected. I was not involved in hot metal because it was just the technology of the day. I was involved because of its clear superiority which is well acknowledged by, for instance, fellow forum member, Gerald Lange. He does beautiful work, sent me something, an earlier customer. I kept it on my walls for years until it was lost in the tidal wave.

So I am not much interested in the nonsense of technology. I was involved in hot metal because I was interested in the book arts. The books arts are going to come to pass and some people are going to pretend that new technology is better. Yes they will be making plastic women next. They have got to be better. At least for those guys.

They are simply fooling themselves.

You have probably noticed that I have my little fights in this forum. People thinking they know more than I. Some of which, by the way, would not even be in this industry had it not been for my inspiration. John Hudson for instance.

I am proud of him. Cheeky but "who am I to complain".

But if I have any qualities I would like to pass down it is by virtue of the arts. That and my forever insightful personality quirks. I suspect you haven't noticed them.

What do boats have to do with typography? I thought your would never ask. For me everything, adventure and freedom. To stay in touch with the planets.

But ask what kind of boats do I like?

"Wooden boats."

You know why, because they are made of wood by human hands with traditions that have gone back to early man. I learned something about building wooden boats and it is a soul searching experience to learn things that were actually discovered and used by forefathers of forefathers that go back thousands of years ago that are just as valuable today as they were then. Wooden nails for instance. Trunnels they are called. I could tell you a lot about trunnel making itself, about the woods, but I want to keep this as a short little note. Wooden boats have evolved from simple floating logs to shells, the opposite of cups that keep liquids in, boats keep liquid out. Well hopefully

John,

Gutenberg lined up his pieces of metal and challenged the scribes to keep up.

Are you comparing yourself to the modern day Gutenberg? I don't watch TV John. But I find Type 1 just fine. Thank you very much.

John,

I am going to look at these links. Also I am thinking about this OpenType business once again.

Still, I must ask myself what I can do for the Chinese, Indian and Arabic computer users? But I am not going to think about it long because the answer is obvious. So I am just going along with you because you are an old friend and I know you are trying to be helpful.

For you, OpenType is part of your business. Type making tools, exotic language issues is, or so it seems is, part of your business.

For me it is not, maybe Finnish.

I would have to ask myself how I could be of help to these people, what designs can I offer them? What do they know or wish to know about Goudy, Bruce Rogers, Caslon. Also I must ask how I am able to make a living from them?

You want to subsidize Lanston John?

With all the free fonts out there, fonts getting spam bundled. Downloads from the net with absolutely no business model. Why would people from a foreign exotic language speaking company want to buy a font from us, or for that matter you?

One would presume firstly they were going to set something, perhaps in French, English? The usual. For the English or French Type 1 fonts are just fine. The exotic speaking language countries unless set by some roaming intellectual would not even know what a "ligature" was. But if they did, we already have them. Swash, small caps, oldstyle figures, etc. Strictly academic folk would need those and those folk are smart enough to use Type 1 fonts and have already been using them for years. But most likely if those people found a ligature automatically stuck into their text they would have to make a service call to find out what was wrong with the font. Who needs the agro?

I am speaking of our alphabet. 99.99% would be unable to distinguish between a good European type design from a bad one. For that matter they would not be able to distinguish the different sounds of a "b" from an "h". 99.99% of them can not speak a word of English. I am sure the literacy rate is at least as bad as Prince Edward Island Canada where only one in four can read a single word of English or French. I am sure the situation is probably much the same in those countries.

So you say I should design foreign "exotic" languages, I must say "no" to that suggestion. Firstly I would find it far too arrogant for me to presume to do a better job than their best and my interest is in the best. Naturally I am open minded and if William came to me and said he designed a Hebrew Alphabet that he thought was good. I would certainly jump at the opportunity to address such a matter. I have a great deal of respect for his sound observations.

Mega Corporations, Chinese, Japanese, Indian companies that are selling big ticket items hire a good American, English or Canadian Advertising companies for print promotional materials in the English speaking world. That is how I can help them. That is how I can make a meagre living. That market exist for us today. Type 1 fonts I must emphasize.

Eastern European Languages I could be helpful with, once again, there is no logical business model. First our designers are unknown. Our promotional materials would have to be translated. Our fonts would have to be worked over, new characters and accents added. Then some way of getting found on the web would have to be examined. Not to mention currency and banking concerns, fraud, piracy but let us not forget the obvious. E-mail correspondence. How many different telemarketers, or e-mail personal would I require.

Heeeeelp, I am already drowning.

Sorry John this does not look like it is going in your favour.

This is a big world. You need, and you sound, like you have resources that I don't. I predict if you removed those resources and competed on a one on one level with Lanston and followed your own advise predictably the next time I visited you we would be meeting in Oppenhiemer Park within several months.

So make sure you get yourself a pigeon gun before you do anything so foolish. After all you might not like the line ups at the food bank.

Not to mention, if by some insane fluke profits were to be found that were substantial you would be cheated out of your due rewards by some bully mega corp that bundles a "copy product" for free with their applications.

I am curious. What type face do you strongly recommend to the typophiles, or the advertising world that was designed by someone in Bombay, Iraq or some other place with an exotic language by a designer that "could not speak or read a single word of English"? Or any common European Language? Please don't tell me Baskerville was designed by Halima Abdule from Somalia. Besides she is still alive and teaches in Roxhill Elementary School in America.

The trick to this question is that the recommendation has to be for a book of English literature, such as Shakespeare, or high end advertising print promotional material. Such as Rolls Royce.

Next question: How many fonts do you commonly use that has been designed by someone that does not speak any European language or any language that uses the Latin alphabet? By someone that only speaks their own exotic language and nothing else? Remember William speaks English.

Now I hope your answers to those two questions are similar because the questions are.

But it is possible if the moon can be flat. But not likely to win "top TDC awards.

Now I am not saying it can't be done, I am just saying I am not going to risk what little I already make in this business on plain foolishness. Call me Mr. Conservative.

Anyway let me help you with the answer, Probably not many. How many do you use daily? Probably none. How many have you purchased? Well you are a strange one, and you have those quirky but interesting typographical pursuits. If anybody does I would think it would be you.

But for the rest of us I am afraid we know names like Bodoni, Caslon, Goudy. Not much chow mein shows up in my fonts menu. Although I would like to have some soon, I am rather hungry.

Can I come for dinner John? Alright, alright.

But I will tell you what. If it is that big an issue someday I might upgrade my TypeLab software if it has an auto generate OpenType format and maybe play around with positioning the ligatures etc.

Now we have come to some amicably agreement, I have made all the movement, I would now ask that you push towards a rational optical scaling for type. I do not mean optical sizes. Also to build tools so this is not a lifetime project.

But before you gloat you should know what my reason for considering OpenType. As you know I love ornaments, http://lanstontype.com/DreyfusKeyboardLoft.html and in my fine press days I worked for many Jewish, and Iranians customers that came to me because of my work. So that is where I believe Lanston has the most to offer these people. Ornaments seem to be part of their culture.

OpenType maybe a good place to put these ornaments to work. Computers are patently inferior in ornament handling to hand set type. In fact inferior to setting them on a Monotype. Maybe I can find something in that format that would make my time worth the while.

As for the rest of all the 8 bit nonsense I know nothing about and could care a less about as long as I can make beautiful and useful things.

My final complaint about both aeroplanes and computers is the are just too dam slow, and I can't stand waiting for them to "crash".

So when you speak of bits, you are really scaring me John. When I hear bits, I hear screams, I see blood lots of blood and get this sinking feeling. It makes me want to upchuck.

Now finally.

How many applications support OpenType?
What is the statistics from a minor font company that can indicate the following.

How long does it take to make an OpenType font fully featured?

How much more can one fairly charge for an OpenType font as opposed to a Type 1 font?

In otherwords when I visit should I expect to bring my swimming trunks for your swimming pool which was earned by that difference in "direct, end user font sales"?

Or will that not be necessary?

If OpenType offered nothing but ugly fonts and Type 1 offered the fonts you liked. Which would you buy for your poetry magazine?

None of these questions are unreasonable.

Gerald, I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to convince you that OpenType is a good thing for you -- although I certainly don't think it is a bad thing, see below --, I'm trying to explain to you why the change in font formats is inevitable, because of the short-comings of the Type 1 format in terms of supporting the scripts and languages and media that are important to the people who specify digital font formats. It is irrelevant whether you like OpenType or not.

But some practical information about OpenType for you:

1. OpenType is primarily a font file format -- all the bells and whistles of automatic ligature substitution etc. are optional. The font file format is a) a single binary file, b) cross-platform compatible, c) Unicode encoded, d) in the case of a PS font much smaller than a Type 1 font with the same glyph set. So even a straight conversion of existing Type 1 fonts, without adding any smart layout features, is an improvement for both font developer and customer. The developer only has to manage a single source and a single binary, instead of having to make multiple, different Type 1 font binaries for Mac and Windows. The customer gets a single, easy to install and manage binary that can be used on both Mac and Windows.

2. How many applications support OpenType?
Every application on my system supports the OpenType file format; it is, in fact, the most widely supported font format ever. In terms of supporting fancy layout features, Adobe and Microsoft are coming at the question from two different directions: Adobe apps support layout for rich typographic features and Japanese; Microsoft apps support language layout features for complex scripts such as Devanagari, Arabic, etc. The two seem set to meet each other and pass in the middle, with Adobe adding support for complex scripts (already in the Middle East version of InDesign from WinSoft) and Microsoft adding support for typographic features. Last year, Microsoft announced system-level support for OpenType typographic features for the next version of Windows: this means any application will get OpenType Layout support by making standard system text output calls. Quark have made semi-public acknowledgement that they are working on making Xpress Unicode-savvy as a first step to supporting OpenType; they have a long way to go but that's their own fault not OpenType's.

3. How long does it take to make an OpenType font fully featured?
If you have all the glyphs already -- which you do -- it can be done fairly quickly. A small family with standard ligatures, smallcaps, etc. can be done manually in a day. Obviously if you have a sizeable library of fonts, you want to automate the conversion as much as possible. If I had such a library, I would likely hire someone like Adam Twardoch to develop FontLab scripts to merge glyph sets from existing Type 1 fonts and build automatic OT Layout feature lookups based on glyph names. Fonts with non-standard glyph sets, e.g. something like Goudy Text with its alternate caps, would need to be handled manually, but this is still a pretty minor job that shouldn't take more than a few hours.

4. How much more can one fairly charge for an OpenType font as opposed to a Type 1 font?
Um, whatever the market can handle? Personally, I charge money for designs not font formats. If you significantly expand the glyph set of a font, e.g. by adding extra ligatures or other alternate forms that were not in the Type 1 fonts, then I think you are justified in charging more. My principal reasons for preferring OT fonts are those discussed in No.1 (above): they are easier to manage than Type 1. I have not made a Type 1 font for several years now, and I hope never to make one again.

['Direct, end user font sales' in any format will not be paying for my swimming pool. Making custom fonts for complex scripts might just. But I spend most of my income on books.]

5. If OpenType offered nothing but ugly fonts and Type 1 offered the fonts you liked. Which would you buy for your poetry magazine?
I would buy the Type 1 fonts and I would spend an afternoon converting them to OpenType to make them easier to use. Considering how powerful my computer is, I shouldn't have to think about ligatures: they should just happen. I certainly shouldn't have to butcher the text in order to typeset it, changing every occurence of the word 'office' to 'oWce', for example, in order to get at the ligature in some expert set. Of course, Lanston puts their ligatures in the basic character set, but still associated with characters that requires changes to the text. I don't think typesetting should be a process of breaking text.

6. As for the rest of all the 8 bit nonsense I know nothing about and could care a less about as long as I can make beautiful and useful things.
The key word in that statement, as it relates to this discussion, is 'useful'. In order to be useful, a thing has to be useable. People made beautiful things for the Bobst photosetter (Bram de Does' Trinit

Aside:

[Regarding ornaments, Gerald, as I've explained in previous discussions, I don't think there is any particular benefit to using fonts as a mechanism for ornament layout. Ornament fonts are something we've inherited from a time when 'output', i.e. printing, consisted of positioning little pieces of metal. What was on the pieces of metal didn't matter to the press, only to the mind of the composer (and in the case of your ornament fugues, the double-meaning of 'composer' is particularly apt). A piece of metal may have a letter on the end or an ornament, it made no difference to the press. But digital type is very different: the computer is not just an output device, it is a text input, storage and editing device. Digital typography is text-centric in a way that metal type was not: directly manipulating and positioning individual sorts is possible on computer, but all our page layout apps and font formats are based on setting lines of text. This is why, as I've suggested before, dedicated ornament setting software that does not rely on font and text layout technologies is a better solution.]

John Nolan,

Before I take you up on that you should think about the fact that Caslon 337 has about 17 fonts.

Maybe something smaller.

But I have to say I am overwhelmed by your offer of support. Are you serious?

John,

Did I hear tablecloth. How busy are you?
Saganaki? Characters

Gerald:
Check your email tomorrow.

PageMaker is a bit of a dead end. Adobe are only marketing it to business/secretarial users. It is no longer being developed as a serious page layout app for professional use. In terms of existing apps that are current and in active development, InDesign and Illustrator are your best choices for further investigation.

On the scripting/macro side, InDesign is more scriptable than any competing application; scripts can be added by anybody who wants to (in Java on either platform, AppleScript on the Mac and Visual Basic on Windows), though you have to actually write or modify them --you can't record scripts. Additionally, the plug-in architecture exposes more than any competitor, and IIRC the plug-in developers' kit (SDK) is free.

John Nolan

Wow, this is a great 6:33 in the morning surprise. Sorry, I am not in my usual position. I am on Lopez Island looking at a sailing schooner. But will return.

It works on a PC, Nice trick. Don't tell anybody I said that.

John, Marc, Thomas,

Thank you all for your input. I have some problems switching to InDesign, old problems revisited.

"PageMaker is a little dead." Maybe you are right John. I found little reason to move upwards. Besides it works just fine. I am not sure PageMaker is "professional or not" but I have worked with some large book publishing companies that seem happy with my "amateurish work".

In any event I have some questions which are "Real Problems Switching to InDesign."

I am running PageMaker 6.5. I did "not" want PageMaker 6.5 because "I had purchased InDesign 1.5". The reason I have PageMaker 6.5 is because my yet even older version of PageMaker files were unable to be ported over to InDesign.

So I am not stuck with PageMaker because I don't want to switch. I am stuck with PageMaker because "I have no other choice".

A bad business decision in someone else

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on eritt

Gerald,

Sorry to hear that you had import problems with your old PageMaker files on InDesign 1.5. This has not been a common problem as far as I've ever heard. I'd be curious to hear more about what Adobe source told you that your files were simply uneditable.

But in any case, that was years ago. InDesign is now several versions later, and the PM import stuff has been improved more than once. InDesign CS PageMaker edition has further improved PM import capabilities (including PM 6.0 files), and offers the familiar PM control bar, among other features.

Nobody's forcing you to change, of course. But InDesign is the successor to PageMaker, and offers massive improvements in typography. OpenType goodies aside, the paragraph composer, optical margin alignment (including hanging punctuation) and other refinements make it far and away the best option for fine typography on the computer.

I'll tell you what. If you send me one of your problem files, perhaps along with a PDF so I know what it's supposed to look like, I'll try converting it to ID CS and see if there are any troubles. One time offer, not available in stores.

Oh, and whoever told you that newer versions of InDesign don't open files from older versions was full of hooey. It is, however, the case that older versions can't open the newer files.

Of course, nobody is forcing you to upgrade. You can keep on using PageMaker on whatever OS you're running, and Type 1 fonts. Or use OpenType fonts, you just won't be able to use the extra bells and whistles.

Cheers,

T

Hrant,

"Claims of past optical scaling in digital fonts on a briny floppy burried somewhere in the nothern winterland do not turn me on - the goods turn me on."

What a pervert.

Alessandro

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on erittS<caron>in fyysistS<caron>,
hyvin eroottista niin ikS<caron>S<caron>n, se herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> kehosi...
vapauttaa aistisi...
ja voimakkaimmillaankin se voi rauhoittaa sinut,
herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> sielusi...
se saa sinut yhteyteen sisS<caron>isimmS<caron>n olemuksesi kanssa...
ja se yhdistS<caron>S<caron> ihmisiS<caron> ehkS<caron> enemmS<caron>n kuin mikS<caron>S<caron>n muu musiikin laji,
se on niin kuin perusvaisto, koska se on kehon ja sielun rytmi."

Yes, thank you.

So I'm nostalgic, and you're forward-looking? Right.
And Thomas is Nefertiti.

hhp

Hrant,

So I'm nostalgic, and you're forward-looking? Right.
And Thomas is Nefertiti.

Took you long enough.

It is estimated that between one and two million people in the United States are severely allergic to stinging insect venom. Each year 90 to 100 deaths from sting reactions are reported, but many more deaths may be occurring, mistakenly diagnosed as heart attacks, sunstrokes or attributed to other causes. More people die each year from the effects of insect venom than from spider or snake bites.

Since perfume, hair spray, hair tonic, suntan lotion, aftershave lotions, heavy-scented shampoos, soaps and many other cosmetics attract insects, they should be avoided. Avoid shiny buckles and jewelry. Wear a hat and closed shoes (not sandals). Don't wear bright, colored, loose-fitting clothing, which may attract and trap insects. Flowery prints and black especially attract insects. To avoid stings, a beekeeper wears light-colored (white) clothing, preferably cotton (never wool).

Alessandro

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on erittS<caron>in fyysistS<caron>,
hyvin eroottista niin ikS<caron>S<caron>n, se herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> kehosi...
vapauttaa aistisi...
ja voimakkaimmillaankin se voi rauhoittaa sinut,
herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> sielusi...
se saa sinut yhteyteen sisS<caron>isimmS<caron>n olemuksesi kanssa...
ja se yhdistS<caron>S<caron> ihmisiS<caron> ehkS<caron> enemmS<caron>n kuin mikS<caron>S<caron>n muu musiikin laji,
se on niin kuin perusvaisto, koska se on kehon ja sielun rytmi."

My wife seems to think <caron> is a woman, I think it is an accent. However I can't speak Finnish and she can. So who is right?

By the way, duck

Hrant,

I am a Finnish resident. We all wear wool socks. But I wished I was there. I have some things I would like to talk about. At the moment I am playing around with some OpenType issues.

But I am concerned that you may need Adobe, translate (be nice to Thomas). I will explain later. By the way, I have changed my mind about that tea you drink. It is very good. Presently it is all I am drinking. Any special brand?

Hrant,

Thank you.

What do you think of OpenType? I am getting convinced.