Much of the open-source software I use was produced by paid professionals working in universities, corporate research labs, government research labs, etc. In most cases the work was funded by the US government (which taxes me) or various corporations. Even Firefox is programmed primarily by programmers paid by Google (and is built on the old Netscape code), which pays the Mozilla foundation millions of dollars for search results from the search tool. The notion that great open source code is being freely given away by a bunch of generous hackers is largely nonsense; without financial backing of entities who have financial or other interests the code would not exist.

And like all those paid programmers I have plenty of bills to pay. Going through design school put me in debt up to my neck. I’m not about to give my work away—especially when a global recession is kicking my ass. If the Open Source dorks can’t live without GNU/BSD/CC licensed fonts they need to convince someone with deep pockets to fund the labor.

Yes, although some of the most valuable open-source software is produced by groups who receive funding from sponsors and investors, I have been an active member of the open-source community since 2003 and have never received money for the work I have contributed.

If you don't feel like contributing you're certainly not a bad person, I totally understand and agree with your arguments and reasons for not desiring to contribute yourself, but I'm looking, hoping to find that one or two who do feel the same way I feel and are willing to make the contribution.

In light if your perspective, who would be willing to go to a group like Google who have traditionally been very supportive of funding open-source technologies, and seeing if they could get money for making or releasing some professional fonts into the open-source community?

I’ll gladly do open-source fonts if someone can turn up a corporate grant. Although any company that ponies up the money would probably want a better designer than me on board ;)

You should check out the Liberation Fonts. The whole family (sans, serif, and monospace) is licensed under the GPL.

more info...
if you want to get involved...

@ khakis_on_fire: I checked on https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/ and it's not clear which file is the good one to download. Any ideas?

one thing I do love about linux is the package management, once you install fonts, just like all of the software you have, there is one button that updates your machine and gets the latest software from the central repository so your fonts (and 100% of your software) is always up to date.

Brilliant! We need auto-updating fonts for other operating systems too!

But back to the main issue, yes, I'm aware of Libertine, I was just hoping that there might be somebody here who had some fonts they'd be willing to offer the community. I have started an Ubuntu tutorials site and I'm going to be going over installing and using fonts in an upcoming article and I really wish there were some knockout fonts (libertine is nice, but no head-turner) that I could offer them to download.

Hopefully somebody somewhere will see this and release something :-)

cuttlefish, I say try this link.

a little more straightforward.

I agree with James, asking type designers to donate to the cause is the wrong approach. Extract money from governments and corporations and pay the best type designers to create the fonts.

I agree with Si on this one.

ChrisL

Some foundries offer a basic version of a typeface "free", with the idea that this promotes purchases of the upgrade.

But can the basic version be considered "professional quality"?

Yes, Nick, but most of these fonts have licenses that prevent further distribution. So you can download it and use it yourself and in your business(depending on what your business is, to some extent, I guess…), but you aren't free to bundle it with other programs.

Si has exactly the right idea. This is what other OSes do. Or the OS has their own type staff, too.

But can the basic version be considered “professional quality”?

That’s not what the open-source world wants. What they want are fonts with extended character set, released under a license that will allow redistribution and derivative works so that it can be packaged in F/OSS *NIX distributions. How many tens of thousands of dollars would most studios need to recoup the cost of developing a basic four-font family like that?

I think I've said this before, but if you want to see quality typefaces with open licences, then you should be trying to convince governments, corporations, universities, and other such organizations to commission such typefaces, not individual type designers. Virtually all the free (though not necessarily open-licence) Korean fonts that boast professional design were commissioned and paid for by such bodies, including the Ministry of Education.

James, I think you're missing the point a little.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what innovati is trying to do is create/find a true open-source community around typography. So instead of looking for a huge donation from a studio or corporation, it might be more practical/fun/in the spirit of open source to find a group of designers willing to donate a little time and expertise here and there for the sake of the community. Maybe it doesn't result in a four-weight family. Maybe it does.

No matter how many type designers you excite, you won't be getting many more quality fonts like this. Type design is only a group activity to a narrow extent; maybe in terms of adding other writing systems, hinting, OT features, or other production tasks. You need to get serious funding lined up, or keep dreaming.

Libby, an open-source community isn’t going to produce good fonts. Type isn’t like code. If you see that my code is wrong, it’s great to have you send me a patch and maybe even have a short group email discussion about it. There’s a great deal of black-and-white, right-or-wrong in code. The same doesn’t hold true for type, where design decisions are very subjective. Open-source projects are known for turning into flame wars over simple things like indentation styles or code comments; imagine what happens when half the group decides the Akzidenz revival needs to look more like Futura.

Communal efforts with no funding are just going to create what the F/OSS world already has plenty of: malformed, disjointed, unfinished fonts that get used to pad out those 10,000 fonts for $4.95 collections.

Track

> for the sake of the community.

What community are you referring to?

Cheers, Si

So Mr Innovati,

Let us say I create a four font family with a large character set and offer it up to the Open Source Community. What do I get for it?

And is whatever I get for it worth it when some ChuckleHead decides that the serifs are too long or short and makes an adjustment, and another CH plays around with the lowercase a and g. Then the 3rd CH decides that he can package the original font and the two derivative monstrosities into some "collection".

What is in it for me?

I have another thought, why don't you have all of the open source devotes donate a few bucks a head to this project. I would happily do a four font family for a reasonable enterprise license fee, say $10,000 per font. Forty Grand shouldn't be too much to ask from the Hundreds of Thousands of Open Source aficionados out there.

James, I'm afraid that your proposal goes against the deep philosophy of free software: it's my divine right to get something for nothing :)

wow. Based on the interaction I've seen on this site I never would have expected such an averse reaction to the idea.

I understand that this is what people do for a living, but simply because something is released does not mean it is a free-for-all and subject to derivative works. What if the fonts are released in a CC-BY-ND licence, your work would be free to use and distribute, and even use commercially, but they would still be required to give you credit at the author, and they would not be allowed to make derivative works based on your typeface.

As for the big question of what do I get out of it, I think it's pretty clear. I personally have been using linux since 2001. I've used Firefox since it was Mozilla Phoenix, then Mozilla Firebird. All mac users use a proprietary desktop, built on an open-source kernel called Darwin. Safari is based on the open-source webkit engine, which was based on the khtml engine from the open-source desktop KDE.

If you've visited 3 websites in your life, chances are 2 of those depended on open-source technologies to be served to you. If they use Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal or another popular CMS it would also be running open-source software.

If you've ever been to wikipedia you've benefitted from open content, run on open-source sofware, hosted on open-source servers. And some of you have personal entries on that site too.

So, what do you get out of it? I'd say you've already benefited from open-source in so many ways they could never all be listed. Although many other groups of people (programmers, artists, musicians, photographers, 3d modelers, etc) have seen the open-source movement and joined in, helping each other out, it has become very clear to me that type designers are a cold, ungrateful group of people.

It may take a company funding development to get a good typeface designed, but it's shame that it would require that before anybody would consider 'giving'. Because if you're paid, you aren't giving at all. Well, I hope you enjoy your fonts all by yourself then, and I expect none of you will use open-source software again (or visit the linux-hosted Typophile) because it's all just trash anyway.

Are you guys serious with this response? When a schoolboy comes to your door raising funds for a charity do you tell him to get himself a job and donate his own money? I can't believe how cold-hearted this thread is. Khakis-on-Fire is the only one who understood what I was suggesting.

>So, what do you get out of it? I’d say you’ve already benefited from open-source in so many ways they could never all be listed.

It's not a one way street - by buying Apple products and using Google search we are all effectively funding Open Source development projects - we don't owe anyone anything.

The people doing the real work on OSS projects are paid, and paid well by Google, Apple, IBM etc., even in our small world Dave Hyatt (of Webkit font-face fame) is an Apple employee, Dave Turner (Freetype) is a Google employee.

Isn't it reasonable for font developers to be paid too? And in fact they are - the fonts that RedHat (Liberation) and Android (Droid) have put into open source were paid for.

innovati, I don't think you are understanding that the work that goes into digital fonts is primarily design work, not programming.

Those who do programs to aid font design do sometimes share these among other designers. When they are more extensive, they usually want to sell them.

But in any case, I don't know of any design work that follows the open source programming model: I contribute some code, others contribute more, and we end up with a product that benefits all.

With a visual design, my Caslon is not going to help someone use someone else's Bodoni or James's Clearview.

Some designers have done stuff pro-bono, or given away styles either as promotion or just because they want to as pro-bono work.

But model for open source software--which also rests on salaries being paid by Universities or other large and wealthy institutions--just doesn't apply to visual design.

Instead of attacking people who are already sharing a wealth of experience with us for free, why don't you look at other ways of reaching your goal? You want better quality fonts in the open-source world. How can you accomplish that? You could assemble an amateur group of type designers, download FontForge, and try to create something on your own. You could maybe get funding and pay someone to design a font. A lot of ideas have been suggested as perhaps a more appropriate way of reaching your goal. I too would like to see better fonts available. But perhaps the change you'd like to see should first start with you? Have you downloaded FontForge yet? :-)

>assemble an amateur group of type designers, download FontForge, and try to create something on your own.

Hmm, perhaps interesting results will come out of this! But with a bunch of amateurs, the best that you are going to get amateur-quality work. That's right… not a super family with all he bells and whistles needed to bundle with your free OSes or software.

Well even the best started from somewhere... :-)

What if the fonts are released in a CC-BY-ND licence, your work would be free to use and distribute, and even use commercially, but they would still be required to give you credit at the author, and they would not be allowed to make derivative works based on your typeface.

That’s not enough for the F/OSS world. People redistributing software do not want to get bogged down in crediting everyone who contributed something. These licenses got washed out of the free software over a decade ago when BSD distributions were shipping with multi-page lists of code authors. When the XFree86 authors went this way everybody dumped XF86 for X.org. And if users can’t develop derivative works, then what’s the point of releasing the fonts to the F/OSS world anyway?

I personally have been using linux since 2001.

Good for you. But most of the world isn’t interested in Linux even though it offers substantial cost savings. I’ve used damn near every Unix system out there at some point, and I dumped Linux back in 2001 because it isn’t worth the headaches. I haven’t run Linux without regretting it in ages. I certainly don’t think Linux is worth giving fonts away.

All mac users use a proprietary desktop, built on an open-source kernel called Darwin.

The UNIX code under the hood of Macs was developed by people working for AT&T, the University of California, DARPA, IBM, HP, SGI, Sun, NEXT and plenty of other organizations who had financial support coming from cold-war era defense projects. Most of the other programmers in the BSD world are IT professionals who use and tweak the system as part of their day-to-day work.

If you’ve visited 3 websites in your life, chances are 2 of those depended on open-source technologies to be served to you.

Technologies like HTML and HTTPD were not developed by hobbyists giving up a little time; they were developed by government-funded computer scientists.

When a schoolboy comes to your door raising funds for a charity do you tell him to get himself a job and donate his own money?

I can’t think of many charities that come around asking for weeks of work. What you’re asking for is more like someone showing up at my door selling tickets to a gala at $10,000 a plate. And the entertainment is Clay Aiken.

Innovati, your thinking on this issue is very callow. You don’t know enough about type design, software development, or the history of F/OSS software to even understand what you’re asking for.

Just something to note:

Linux was started by Linus Torvalds as a hobby. He was not paid for the code.

Releasing projects Open Source and for free (there is a difference, after all) is a great way to get noticed for future work, though perhaps not in the field of type design. Being on the fringes as an enthusiast doesn't really lend me any knowledge on the subject.

As noted previously, one key difference between Linux and a typeface in an open source perspective is that the latter can benefit from contributions from lots of people, and the former will not work if too many people are working on it.

Cheers,

T

It would be interesting to know the size of the team that works on the Linux Libertine family of fonts (if it's indeed more than one person, which seems likely). Certainly not the best typeface out there, but I believe it to be among the most pleasing of the free fonts I've found around the internet, as well as the most complete.

1. A school kid comes to my door selling, cookies, a chocolate bar, wrapping paper, or pizza. The cost is about $10.
2. A grown-up comes to a website and asks me to perform a years worth of work for free (and let my bills go unpaid for a year while doing it).

See the difference between 1 and 2?

ChrisL

Linux was started by Linus Torvalds as a hobby. He was not paid for the code.

Again, you guys are doing a very poor job of being open-source nerds. Linux was not a hobby, it part of Linus Torvald’s education in computer science at a state school in a socialist nation where higher education is free. Linux grew into his master’s thesis. If type designers could go to school for eight years on someone else’s dime there would probably be a lot of free typefaces out there. But that is not the case.

And the Linux operating system as a whole is hardly the work of hobbyists. Much GNU software that makes the kernel useful was produced by computer scientists and academics who wanted code that they could edit and redistribute. They didn’t give it away because they were great philanthropists, they did it because they were nerds who wanted to tinker with code unfettered.

>When a schoolboy comes to your door raising funds for a charity do you tell him to get himself a job and donate his own money?

No, I ask them if the can hint. If they say no, I'll ask them if they have any experience spacing and kerning type.

Cheers, Si

"Linux was not a hobby, it part of Linus Torvald’s education in computer science at a state school in a socialist nation where higher education is free. Linux grew into his master’s thesis."

Linus Torvald's Usenet posting that basically announces Linux:

Hello everybody out there using minix -

I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like any feedback on things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons) among other things).

I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work. This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, and I'd like to know what features most people would want. Any suggestions are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-)

Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi)

PS. Yes – it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded fs. It is NOT portable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.

"And the Linux operating system as a whole is hardly the work of hobbyists. Much GNU software that makes the kernel useful was produced by computer scientists and academics who wanted code that they could edit and redistribute. They didn’t give it away because they were great philanthropists, they did it because they were nerds who wanted to tinker with code unfettered."

As I said earlier, I don't really think that the Open Source/free software paradigm can work with type design. I'm not saying that you should design a font-family for free. In fact, I only stepped in to clarify that many open source projects are started as hobbies that grow into something much more. Too, I never said that Linux was STILL a hobby. It's obviously much more than that now.

Furthermore, what would it matter whether the programmers were doing it be philanthropists or merely "nerds" who wanted to mess around with code? They released it OS/Free all the same. And again, I AGREE that this sort of thing wouldn't really work with type design. However, if type design is something that you love to do, and you find yourself fiddling with a font in your down time, just "tinkering" around with it, why not release it for free if you're already not being paid for it? After all, OS/Free also doesn't mean that a team of people HAS to work on it. A lot of my favorite software comes from a single coder who is nice enough to share their personal projects with the net.

I was almost excited about this. Then I saw the original poster's temper tantrum when people made suggestions about how to achieve his goal, and that turned me off pretty quickly. Granted, I do feel that some of the points that were brought up should have been more diplomatically stated, but flying off the handle and calling everyone in this community "cold-hearted" will not accomplish anything. Cynics are all over the place and the only way to get past them is to look past them and find the people who would be excited about this project.

wow, ok.

How about this. There's plenty of people out there releasing free fonts, a lot of which (I would expect) fall into the category kaujot points out- things people tinker with in their free time and don't expect payment for.

Just as a thought experiment, what if those sorts of things were free (as in freedom) and not just free (as in beer)? Meaning that they were released under the GPL or a liberal creative commons license? I just wonder how that would play out.

call me an idealist.

This is more of a daydream, but...

What would be great is if some people existed out there who just enjoy fine-tuning the spacing and kerning of other people's type designs. And also hinting, naming, generating, and testing the fonts. And expanding the character set, maybe even adding different weights. You know, all the steps required for creating a professional font with all the bells and whistles.

If there is anyone who is willing to do all this repetitive work for free, preferably without any creative input of his or her own, please, please contact me.

You probably know about this:
http://betatype.com/node/36

There already is a small movement towards collaboration growing, with things like iKern and the like. The only problem with truly open-source typefaces is that, to its designer, a typeface is more than a purely functional tool. Trying to move typefaces into the open-source spirit of collaboration is tricky, for the same reason that an artist doesn't expect people to add more brushstrokes to his painting after he finishes it. While there are certainly technical aspects to type design, it is ultimately much more subjective than coding is. Someone earlier raised the issue of how a type designer would feel if someone suddenly decides that shortening the serifs would look better.

I dunno, maybe I'm expressing it too simply, but I think that that's the major roadblock preventing type designers from joining the open-source community.

Again, just because something is open source does not mean that it has to be collaborative. And just because something is open source does not mean that it's free, though the two often overlap.

Given the generally generous spirit of typophilers, I must say that I have been surprised at the backlash against this request. After all, the motto of Typophile is "Typographic Collaboration".

In response to this bitterness, I would like to highlight how this forum has, indirectly, perhaps already contributed to the requested project. Typophile is a forum in which experienced type designers can share their knowledge both among themselves as well as among less experienced designers. Without the Typophile forum we likely would not be seeing, on the one hand, the quantity or quality of free fonts that are being released these days, nor, on the other hand, the number of people would be in a position to contribute to such a project. So while it might be imprudent to try to design a coherent type system using collaborative strategies similar to those used in the open source community, this forum likely has given knowledge to many people who could participate in a more organized, even modestly funded project. And many of these people would not have the knowledge they do without this forum.

As a final note, I do not believe that the massive M+ type system has been mentioned. Most of the page is in Japanese, but the English portion reads thus:

These fonts are free softwares.
Unlimited permission is granted to use, copy, and distribute it, with or without modification, either commercially and noncommercially.
THESE FONTS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY.

Since I can't read Japanese, I don't know if this project was/is funded or not.

I'm reminded of a maxim I heard once that went something like "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

I have had a greater response here than I could ever have hoped for, but unfortunately the response has been overwhelmingly negative. You question my ability to assess the hours of work that go into designing a typeface simply because I threw a question out knowingly against the odds? I don't see the logic in that.

I don't think you have any basis for making statements calling my understanding of open-source development, the differing contribution models or the knowledge of different open-source funding models into question.

I lack the authority on this forum to close a thread, but that cannot change my desire to do so. I think that while you all line up to take your respective shots at a young designer with your witty and élite comments you might be losing sight of the fact that I'm not just some anonymous thug holding you at gunpoint and asking politely for your wallets, but one of you.

I asked for a willing contribution, and if you don't find that in yourself I'm reminded of another saying: "Nothing to see here, move along, move along."

I could spend my time sitting here and replying to each of your individual personal attacks, flawed logic, inconsistent illustrations of the way you perceive the nature of open-source development, and insults - but at the end of the day I would have hoped you'd agree that my time could be spent doing something of greater benefit. I will simply consider the source and allow disappointment.

You have collectively, and completely, shocked me. It's not often you misjudge an entire collective of people, but it appears that in my life thus far I have become too accustomed to the helpful and giving nature of the open-source communities in which I take part.

I offer not just those who have wasted five minutes of their time conjuring a seemingly harsh response to my ludicrous question, but to all members here, my most heartfelt apology for being so incredibly and publicly naïve, and through my suggestion placed a burden on your conscience that merited such hostility to overcome.

I imagine you'll see less of me on here after this, I have greater things to accomplish than to become so consumed by money and propriety that I wither and rot into a bitter state of existence. Personally, the satisfaction for the work I do derives directly from how many people I am able to help through it, not from the money I can acquire if I keep ownership of it. I have now understood my error and will spend my time amongst people closer to who I wish to become.

i think this has gotten way out of hand.

my perception is that you can basically suggested something that most people (including professional, full-time type designers) think is either really hard, or impossible.

but instead of trying to swing them to your cause you have made personal attacks.

you mention the open-source community a lot, acknowledging that most of the stuff out there is funded by various bodies, and that the actual percentage of people who give their time/skils away for free is small. why would it be any different in the type community?

if the funding for open-source software was suddenly taken away, and no one was getting paid to do it as their day job, do you really think there would be so much of it?

really?

most of those coders would have bills to pay and food to eat, so they need to work for it, and so they work for these organisations who pay them to make open-source software.

it's not bad to be honest and say you need money to live. i do. so i work.

remember most of the type designers here do not work for big companies, but are either small business or sole traders, when you are a little guy it's hard to justify giving work/time away.

as a member of typophile for over 3 years i can say the community is not cold and heartless, but they are honest and straight up.

i hope you find what you are after.

Tom, you'll get over it.
This is just one small aspect of type.
Sure, you have been told in no uncertain terms that you don't know what you're talking about, but that happens to everyone here at one time or another if they say something contentious.

I don't think you will find too many type designers subscribing to the feasibility of font altruism as a smart career move -- the Torvalds path, making a name in OS fonts, geting scooped up by David Berlow and eventually ending up with millions in Font Bureau stock options--so I'd like to suggest this alternative course of action to accomplish your goal:

Divvy the job up: set up strict metric and aesthetic parameters, assemble a team of volunteers each willing to do a subset of glyphs, and that way no one person would be too heavily invested emotionally, with too onerous a workload.

I have recently noticed the lack of professional quality fonts available under open licenses here that are of any professional value.

I'd be interested in what you mean here. Do you think

• there should be a free typeface family for each style e.g. of the classic classifications?
• that existing free fonts are not mastered expertly enough to call them professional?
• that existing free fonts are not designed expertly enough to call them professional?
• that there should simply be more choice?

Do you have in mind typefaces designed for setting books? magazines? corporate identities? on-screen use? display faces? all of these? ;)

Jens

"Khakis-on-Fire is the only one who understood what I was suggesting."

Really?

Well, l just send me a specification off-list, I'll help you work it up to a job ticket (so designers can work on it), and we'll go from there!

Cheers!

Don't we need both things?
I mean, Open Source and professional, even costly, products?
After all, this kind of competition may be actually healthy, and good to reflect on our state.

Besides, I have still to figure out how to convince people to buy software licenses, figure out typefaces… It took me more or less 15 years to start to slightly (onoy slightly) sensibilize on why we need education, why we need ethics in work, et all, and it's really hard.
Probably it's a situation you can feel here in Italy, which lacked typographic education and a development in education for decades, but I think the most important thing is still, besides trying to work out an effective plan, to sensibilize people on the effective value of things, and how they get used.

Isn't it weird that a big part of professional type design originates today as custom, for pretty secondary purposes, while print quality often lacks completely in essential things?

Said, this, you should not expect reasonable responses from excited type designers… ;=)

Even Gentium, listed at the head of this topic, wouldn't exist if it weren't for SIL and their need for good typefaces for their international literacy work.

Again, just because something is open source does not mean that it has to be collaborative. And just because something is open source does not mean that it’s free, though the two often overlap.

This.

As I said before, I don't mind doing a set of fonts with free licenses. I do mind your bad attitude when people told you why they weren't interested. Instead of whining and throwing a tantrum you should have looked past those responses to the people who did say they were interested.

I should add that I'm sure I would enjoy working on an open source font project, if somebody were willing to pay me to do so.

If I had lots of free time, I'd even consider doing it for free. This is not a likely position for me to be in, however.

Either way, I'd want to have a pretty clear hierarchy of work and responsibility and run it a lot like a commercial font development project, with a single person's vision driving the project.

Cheers,

T

I think that while you all line up to take your respective shots at a young designer with your witty and élite comments you might be losing sight of the fact that I’m not just some anonymous thug holding you at gunpoint and asking politely for your wallets, but one of you.

Tom, You are really taking the criticism a bit personally, aren't you?

Over the last 5+ years, I have read a lot of threads in which professionals and students bickered about this and that, and unfortunately on occasion some turned to personal attacks to get their points across. I have not seen any of that here until your last post**. Rather, I saw members of a community come together and provide extremely useful information to your effort and shared their perspectives on the topic.

If I had started this thread, I would feel pretty good about getting so many talented people engaged in what is a very important topic in this industry, yet it seems you only want to listen to those who agree with you. Resolutions only come when you have explored the opposing sides of a problem. You could probably benefit highly from listening to their experiences since most of them know what they are talking about because they live it breathe it every day - some for many years.

You don't have to agree with them, but in the spirit of collaboration, you might consider taking a chill pill and treating your future colleagues with respect.

**My apologies for missing the first one. But whatever!

I have not seen any of that here until your last post. Rather, I saw members of a community come together and provide extremely useful information to your effort and shared their perspectives on the topic.

I would disagree with this statement. There were a few moments in this thread where, though not named personally, rather unflattering terms and generalizations were used about a community to which innovati clearly belongs (I too, count myself in that community). I understand completely why he would get defensive and take things like that personally. Any vitriol found here cannot be fully attributed to the him, though. But for the most part, I think everyone's been very respectful.

Just some more food for thought: Jason Rohrer, an open source/free game designer based in up-state New York, makes his living (roughly $10k/year) almost entirely from web donations from fans, plus the occasional commissioned game/article from an online gaming publication (which can't amount to too much). Of course, Rohrer doesn't want bills to pay, etc., so his meager income is by design. But you CAN make money from releasing your spare-time projects open source/free (or even just free) and ask for donations. Will everyone who downloads your font/project/whatever? Of course not, but you can make a decent amount of money all the same, even if you just do something in your spare time.

Though a bit hesitant to do so, I would liken exljbris foundry's release method to this, at least for Museo. 3(?) fonts for free, and you can purchase the other 2(?) to make the family complete. You get a great quality product for absolutely nothing. If you like it (a sidenote: I do!), you "make a donation" to Jos and get the other two weights. It's a bit of a stretch, as you're not really making a donation, but I think the spirit is there.

All that said, I'll just reiterate that I think any open source font project would have to have either a sole author or a very small group of like-minded designers to be "professionally" successful.

Edit: Rohrer's income is actually in the range of $14.5k, as he has a consulting job with Electronic Arts, as well as a patron. I was a little surprised that such people still existed (patrons, that is).

Innovati, your thinking on this issue is very callow. You don’t know enough about type design, software development, or the history of F/OSS software to even understand what you’re asking for. James Puckett

Tom, You are really taking the criticism a bit personally, aren’t you? Zara

it's clear that innovati could have handled things a little better, but really, how do you respond to such a condescending attack such as the one typed in by James?

this was the first personal attack of the thread, from my reading of it. Maybe I missed something.

not a word to James.

I'm not sure that innovati attacked anyone individually.

If I missed a personal attack of his, I stand corrected.

:(

My apologies that I didn't see the comment posted by James. I read through the comments a little quickly and I missed it. My mistake.

Regardless, I still find some of the things Innovati said to be disrespectful to everyone who has participated in this thread, and so I'm calling him out on it.

I'm not here to be a referee so I'm not going to call out every individual comment and get into a who-said-what argument. It is a waste of everyone's time.

Just be nice, and carry on.

"I should add that I’m sure I would enjoy working on an open source font project, if somebody were willing to pay me to do so."

Me too, and if they eventually gather the brains to specify what were they were asking for, maybe it'll be done. But this is the 3rd Typophile thread I'm aware of with the same question, the same ugly confrontation, the same offers, and I'm guessing it too will end in silence with another wild-eyed freetype type wandering off in a tiff wondering why.

It's boring.

Cheers!

no problem Zara, just thought someone needed to say something, nothing personal -- u r awesome. (/me backs out of the thread)

Somebody is using $10K/yr as an example of somebody making a living? Who lives in New York City? What, does he live with his parents, or supported by a partner?

$10K a year won't even pay my *health insurance* alone. Or a place for my family to live in our current city. Let alone be enough to live on.

Cheers,

T

Upper New York state, I think it said, not New York City. But either way...

Very well Zara, I never intended to cause either through the creation of the thread, or either of my 2 following comments to cause disrespect to any particular person or to Typophile itself.

I am young, and I know that. I don't have the benefit of being shielded by tough impermeable hide to protect me from some of the direct ad hominem attacks thrown at me while I was attempting to raise support for the benefit of others, though I did try my best to remain diplomatic and not fall into the trap of replying or arguing against any comment that I may have taken offense to in the interest of trying to keep the thread itself on track, lest it decay into bickering and nothing get accomplished.

I apologize if I have disappointed you through my failure to either engage the forum in a manner in which intelligent discussion could be carried out, or through my greatest efforts to remain impartial toward comments comparing me to throwing a tantrum and questioning my comprehension of the nature of open-source and commercial development models.

This whole thing has really been a learning experience for me, and I hope that long after I have been removed from this thread and forum that maybe some seed of charity will grow in the hearts of those who did read the ideas, and hopefully some will eventually consider releasing some work under a license that allows free redistribution. If that happens because of what has become this ugly thread I will still count it as a win for the greater good although I likely won't be here to see it.

I was no longer checking this thread, and if I hadn't been emailed by another forum member I wouldn't have been back here to post this apology. I feel that there are others here who rightfully owe an apology, but based on how things have unfolded I have serious doubts that other apologies will be made.

I can't quite understand though Zara, and maybe it's because you haven't got the time to go through all of the comments as much as I had, but when a direct ad hominem attack is made against you, how else can you take it but personally? Isn't that inherent in the nature of such attacks?

[…] how else can you take it but personally? Isn’t that inherent in the nature of such attacks?

Tom, I have two perplexities about your attitude:

1) Charity: I have strong doubts about the possibilities of being charitable through the offering of open-source works. Firstly, because people tend to abuse what's gratuitious. I would like to see initiatives to be rewarded by donations, I would like to see more sharing of work, and not all backed up by sponsorization, but as long as we're on this earth, in this human condition, spiritual progress largely depends on everyone's commitment and availability.
If you are unable to sensibilize people about recognizing the gratuitious nature of things (and I have strong doubts you can do that by words, seen how everything is often taken for "granted" and not "given", but this opens up a whole reflection on "creation" and "authority" which people tend to dislike, as they seem to prefer to live in a sort of "automated" way.
Charity comes out of Charity, no other way.

2) Youngness: I think this is a point of strength on your part, not just a "vulnerability". Personally I have never had the chance to attend studies. We simply did not have them around 20 years ago in Italy, that's all. But I see I have "learned" nonetheless, and the first step is not to give so much importance to "personal attacks" or the short-sightedness of many so-called professionals.
I feel I still have everything to learn, but I am no longer saddened or embittered by that, since I have realized you learn in an infinite number of ways, and it may prove a more enriching experience to learn from a small, single thing, than to try to tackle the biggest problems on a wide scale.

Of course, I quite agree about the fact that it would be good to have more open source faces, but I also agree with the idea that we should have more works of personal dedication priced accordingly.

So, if you really wish to understand better, try to explain more in detail what you would propose, and I'm sure you'll get a lot of constructive feedback.

Smashing Magazine had a page devoted to free quality typography. There aren't much free fonts of high quality which are not on this website:

Here is the page

I am posting this not because I think asking for free stuff is horrid ( we can say no ) or that saying no is horrid ( heavens!) but because I think there is some missing context.

If people in the font industry didn't fear that bunch of glib cocksure code adjusting unix folk was going to steal it's lunch with @font (and laugh merrily and in a self satisfied way while doing it) the response would have been different. Should the font industry take a different attitude? Maybe. But I suspect that the unanswered questions raised by @font and Håkon Wium Lie's attitude has made a difference. Nobody likes being dragged by the hair into a new business model which BTW may or may not exist.

As things stand font people ( in general ) don't really think of *nix and open source proselytizers as their pals. Not yet anyway. Maybe that can change. But it will take time patience and thoughtfulness all around. And maybe a grant.

Somebody is using $10K/yr as an example of somebody making a living? Who lives in New York City? What, does he live with his parents, or supported by a partner?

$10K a year won’t even pay my *health insurance* alone. Or a place for my family to live in our current city. Let alone be enough to live on.

I did not say that Jason Rohrer lives in NYC. I said that he lived in upstate New York, in Potsdam, to be specific. His level of poverty is self-imposed, because it's the way he wants to live.

Furthermore, I was not in any way saying that you should aspire to live on $10k/year (Rohrer's budget is actually $14.5k, as I corrected at the bottom of my post). I was pointing out that the majority of that $14.5k is from donations alone, and a person working in their spare time, while holding another job, could solicit such donations and make a decent amount of money ($10k is more than decent, in my opinion) if their work is quality and people appreciate it.

Yes, sorry I missed that bit about it being upstate NY, not NYC (and there is a huge difference in the cost of living, there). But somebody else already corrected that.

Still, your example of Jason was that he is doing this *full time*, and even with a consulting contract and a patron on top of his donations, he is only pulling in $14.5 K a year? Presumably one wouldn't be doing nearly as much work if it was in one's spare time. Plus, Jason is a full-time open source game designer rather than an open source type designer (the former seems more viable to me). I think this example actually hurts rather than supports an argument for the financial viability of donation-based open source type design.

So if it wasn't for the consulting and the patron, he'd be getting, what, maybe half of that? Somebody doing it on the side of a full-time job would be putting in what, 1/3 the hours? So maybe $3K or $4K a year? Sure, that's money, and I'm discouraging anybody from trying it, but it doesn't sound like a living as most folks would think of it.

Cheers,

T

Sounds like a hobby to me.

Well, the SIL's funding of Gentium (and their other OFL-licensed fonts) provides a good start. Red Hat is funding the Liberation fonts (GPL+embedding exception), and somebody is funding Linux Libertine (GPL/OFL). Then you have the Tεχ User Group–funded Latin Modern and Tεχ Gyre fonts (GFL/LᴬTᴇX Public Project License).

Maybe the thing to do is ask which of the type designers here would be willing to work—for pay—with one of these projects, and which project would be willing to pay a professional to do what the programmer couldn't.

—Joel

The list of type designers who have worked on fonts that have either been given away or licensed under some kind of open source model is long... Matthew Carter, Tom Rickner, Jim Lyles, Victor Gaultney, Steve Matteson, Bigelow and Holmes, John Hudson, and many more...

A more interesting question might be which type designers would refuse to work on an OSS font project.

There must be a hundred other things that people in the Open Source Community do not want to pay for. So I’d suggest Tom send similar “calls” to other lists. A few suggestions…

Calling all dentists – Some members of the Open Source Community are in dire need of dental work, please donate time and materials to improve their smiles.

Calling all airlines – High airfares cripple the OSS advocates from attending conferences and other meet-ups around the world. Please establish an OSS boondoggle fund to provide subsidized air travel.

Calling all Pizza Outlets – Programmers are fueled by pizza – but costs can be burdensome. Please consider providing free pizza to all legitimate card carrying Apache developers.

Calling all graphic designers – Our penguin logo makes it hard for people to take us seriously. We need a new icon – maybe a warlock or a sword wielding anime princess – we also need a new name featuring a heavy-metal umlaut.

Still, your example of Jason was that he is doing this *full time*, and even with a consulting contract and a patron on top of his donations, he is only pulling in $14.5 K a year? Presumably one wouldn’t be doing nearly as much work if it was in one’s spare time. Plus, Jason is a full-time open source game designer rather than an open source type designer (the former seems more viable to me). I think this example actually hurts rather than supports an argument for the financial viability of donation-based open source type design.

So if it wasn’t for the consulting and the patron, he’d be getting, what, maybe half of that? Somebody doing it on the side of a full-time job would be putting in what, 1/3 the hours? So maybe $3K or $4K a year? Sure, that’s money, and I’m discouraging anybody from trying it, but it doesn’t sound like a living as most folks would think of it.

According to numbers he provided Esquire magazine, Rohrer's budget before his patron and before his consulting job was the $10k that I provided in my initial comment. And his games are not quite what you think of when you think of a video games. Very retro and low-budget (understatement of the year). And again, I'm not suggesting that anyone try to match his level of desired poverty. But even $3-4k garnered from doing work on the side—work that, in all likelihood, you love to do—is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't want a living on $3-4k/year, but I'd love a side bit of income like that.

I have always stated that I'm not sure the same paradigm can apply to type design as it applies to software, etc. But I do think the two can work together.

All the time in the world for bla, bla, bla, but not a specification in sight?

Cheers!

A typical client. Plenty of room for cost over-runs. :-)

(First of all, sorry if this sounds aggressive, it's not my intention)

So I’d suggest Tom send similar “calls” to other lists. A few suggestions…

Do not confuse services and products. Dentist, airline, icon and font design are services, it makes sense to pay for that. Pizzas are physical products, it makes sense to pay at least as much as the flour/tomatoes/etc cost. Making and baking the pizza is a service that adds value to the raw flour and tomatoes.

Using a font on my website or in a PDF is not a product nor a service the font designer provides, thus I don't see why I should pay or have to read legalese and worry about abusive embedding/redistributing/per-cpu limits. Once the font is designed, distribution is basically free. But of course unless the designer has a patron (is that the correct word? «mécène» in french) there is nobody to pay.

This is the same problem as with the music industry —except font designers cannot live from live performances :-) In the end I wish I could have unlimited use and pay a flat fee per year and have that redistributed to the artists according to my listening statistics on last.fm. Maybe I should move to Man.

Starting a thread like this is similar to when someone (I forget names) spoke to the crowd at ATypI suggesting that they release more free fonts. IIRC there was much back stepping to re-explain what was meant to be said. If someone comes into a room asking for something for free where people all make a living from that something and all these people don't share the same ideas about the worth of this something there is going to be a clash of interests. I'm late to the party and feel like it has been played out. Seems to me if some seriously organized specs were layed out it might've lead to a different kind of discussion all around.

All the time in the world for bla, bla, bla, but not a specification in sight?

As the man says, put up or shut up.
If the OS advocates expect work from type folk, the least they could do is make the effort to produce a brief.

The recipient of the 2008 SOTA Award for lifetime achievement is itching to get cracking.
That's like Clint Eastwood offering to make you a free movie and star in it.

Starting a thread like this is similar to when someone (I forget names) spoke to the crowd at ATypI suggesting that they release more free fonts.

Ellen Lupton?

Yes, thank you Karsten.

And I didn't mean to open up another can of worms bringing Ellen Lupton's talk into it. I was just pointing out that when you approach a group of people who make a living from doing something you need to tread lightly.

Let's let this one die. I think everyone has said what they want to say. No hard feelings, ok?

Tom and everyone else who has been offended,

If you feel that your reputation and well-being is threatened by others in this forum, then I suggest you take *that* discussion offline. Using this thread to focus on the negative aspects of this conversation is not productive to you nor anyone else here.

>So I’d suggest Tom send similar “calls” to other lists. A few suggestions…

It was pointed out to me off-list that this could be taken as another Tom-bashing. That was not my intention. Just pointing out that many of the beneficaries of OSS don't contribute.

>The recipient of the 2008 SOTA Award

2007 in Seattle, as I recall.

>I was just pointing out that when you approach a group of people who make a living from doing something you need to tread lightly.

You recall ATypI Finland - Victor made the case for the Open Font License and there was no backlash. I think that was due to his approach, reasoned arguments, and the fact that he did have the respect of his peers.

I don't explicitly remember Victor's talk. But it is good to be reminded of that.

>I don’t explicitly remember Victor’s talk
http://www.atypi.org/30_past_conferences/07_Helsinki/30_program/30_other...

You probably went next door for Adam's talk - either that or to the bar ;-)

...he did have the respect of his peers..

No chucklehead he.

I presume we're talking about Victor Gaultney?
I attended his talk at St Petersburg; it was very inspirational.
However, the beneficiaries he mainly targeted were not software developers and budget-conscious users in general, but minority language speakers.

So once again, the specific questions Jens asked must be answered: what's missing in OS fonts? Do they want the latest stylez, gazillions of OT features, recherché encoding, &c., &c.?

>I attended his talk at St Petersburg

It was a different talk.

Interesting thread. I know it's more complicated than this, but this is how I see it -
I am not a type designer, but I would be glad to be involved in a project like this for other types of designs I do. I realize that we all have to make money. But I would say many designers have enough time to work on some sort of project on the side. I occasionally do free web-sites for non-profits. I can't do it all the time obviously, but it would be foolish, and even selfish to say that I could not offer my services on occasion to help something that does not directly pay me back.
In short, I think there is plenty of room for designers to design something that is open to public use.

"Ellen Lupton?"
Nowwwwwwwww I remember why I fled ATypI.

"That’s like Clint Eastwood offering to make you a free movie and star in it."

Go ahead punk, make my D. ;)

Cheers!

"Go ahead punk, make my D"

I will for a fist full of dollars :-)

ChrisL

Chris is back! Just what this thread needed! How about the spacing of this new Linux font? "Every Which Way But Loose" ;-)

My last post here – honest!

Harhuum.

The primary difference between open source code and open source fonts would be that the code would likely be improved over time, but the fonts would very likely become worse.

The "scratch your own itch" model of software development works very well for large open-source projects exactly because my new feature or fix is something that >I< need in a current project, and therefore >I< will spend the time (or get the funding) to build the new feature or squash that bug.

This really would not be the case in font development.
A professional designer is very unlikely to need, or want, to go into somebody else's font and fix the problems in order to be able to use the font themselves.

i'm actually sympathetic to innovati's thinking, and had at one time talked with Lee Quin about donating some fonts from the Alphabets Library to the {forgot the name of the FOSS Desktop project} he was involved with.

However, the same concerns and issues arose on further consideration, and it never came to pass.
The idea of releasing DESIGN into the public domain is perfectly legitimate. However, that certainly does not mean that DESIGNERS should be obligated, nor brow-beaten, for considering their own livelihoods.

FOSS is NOT in any sense, a charitable institution. It thrives exactly because it provides more value back to those who donate to it than they are required to 'pay'. Unless and until the same model would work for fonts... or photos... or creative writing, or any other pursuit, the model will not thrive in these domains.

Just my 2 cents ;-)

Peter Fraterdeus

http://slowprint.com/almostfreelp (Almost Free Letterpress!)
http://alphabets.com - Galena, Illinois

I should clarify that while I am very skeptical about the prospects for general-public-donor-supported type design, I believe that commissions, and donations of existing typefaces (probably mostly by corporations, but sometimes by independent designers) are the likely modes of growth for good quality open source typefaces. Slow growth, from a small number of quality typefaces today, but grow nonetheless.

Regards,

T

Thomas and David have both indicated that they would be happy to work on fonts for open source release if they were paid. I would be too. In general, the work I do ends up being owned by someone else anyway, and if they decide they wanted to make it free (as in loose), that is their decision not mine. As it happens, the people who most often come along with the cheque book ready and, as David notes, a specification are people who want to control the distribution of the fonts.

Si: A more interesting question might be which type designers would refuse to work on an OSS font project.

I categorically refuse to work on any fonts for the Office of Strategic Services. You just know that they're going to end up as the CIA.