Celebrities condemn Israeli attacks on Gaza

James Arboghast's picture

-----ABC News story-----

"By Europe correspondent Emma Alberici

Posted 42 minutes ago

A group of high-profile celebrities in London have joined a campaign calling for an end to Israel's bombing of the Gaza Strip.

Singer Annie Lennox led a press conference stating that the television footage of the attacks in Gaza had left her shaken to the core."

j a m e s

Comments

Typedog's picture

The never ending battle between two enemies with so much in common. It is a shame that so many innocent people die because two groups cannot get along. Split the damn country in half and make it two state instead of one, end this shit now. Muslims, Jews, and, Christians, we are all the same.

William Berkson's picture

>Split the damn country in half and make it two state instead of one

That's what Hamas doesn't want to do. Their stated goal is to destroy the present state of Israel, and make it a Muslim state. Hence their bombing Israel *after* it quit Gaza, and the coup d’état against the Palestinian Authority in Gaza. Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution. So do many Arab countries in their plan. Hamas and the Iranian government don't want any Jewish state.

James Arboghast's picture

It certainly is an ongoing mess and a terrible waste of life. Author and philosopher Sam Harris has developed a progressive way of viewing religious intolerance. From Wikipedia:

Harris acknowledges that he advocates a benign, corrective form of intolerance, distinguishing it from historic religious persecution. He promotes a conversational intolerance, in which personal convictions are scaled against evidence, and where intellectual honesty is demanded equally in religious views and non-religious views. He also argues for the need to counter inhibitions that prevent the open critique of religious ideas, beliefs, and practices under the auspices of "tolerance."

-----Read the rest here-----

j a m e s

AzizMostafa's picture

> Split the damn country in half and make it two state instead of one

If you do not want to share your own house with me,
am I given the right to kill you(r) children then
split the damn house in half and make it two houses instead of one?!
Is that allowed in Democratic US?!
Is that allowed in Christianity?!
Is that allowed in Judaism?!

More here:
http://typophile.com/node/30209?page=1#comment-175307

Typedog's picture

It is a never ending battle for land that belongs to not one, but many. I choose no side for both parties are equally guilty of crime against humanity.

AzizMostafa's picture

> It is a never ending battle for land that belongs to not one, but many?!

Arab Muslims, Arab Jews, and, Arab Christians were living there peacefully before Israel was wrongfully created in 1948 and non-Arabs Jews were cheated to migrate to the land that never belonged to non-Arabs. Emphasizing, the land did not belong to non-Arabs, but Jews were brought to it from troubled corners from all around the world.

Do you know why? To make it a never ending battle? Again why?
To keep on selling arms to the surrounding countries on the the condition that they would never use them against Israel that has been made at all times to be superior in armaments.

If it is still hard to understand why, I will comment more with Flowers.

James Arboghast's picture

@William: Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution. So do many Arab countries in their plan. Hamas and the Iranian government don’t want any Jewish state.

It isn't hard to understand why some parties don't want any Jewish state. The clock keeps ticking and more peeple are being killed, all the while the White House shows its bias by saying nothing. The Australian Federal Labor Government is conspicuous in its silence too:

Greens pressure Govt to condemn Gaza Strip violence

j a m e s

William Berkson's picture

Typedog, from a Jewish point of view it looks like the "crime of Israel" in the eyes of many of its opponents, including Hamas, is simply wanting to exist. The United Nations declared a two-state solution, and the united Arab countries did not accept it, and in 1948 tried to drive the Jews into the sea, as they put it.

There followed a series of wars and terror campaigns against Israel up until today. Israel was able to defend itself, which is not a crime to me. There was the high cost that almost everyone in Israel has a relative or friend who died in these defensive wars.

Israel also, led by Ariel Sharon, engaged in a long and brutal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, which compromised it morally and, in my view, undermined its security.

After this long history of war and folly there is finally acceptance of the existence of Israel by it seems most Arab governments, and agreement on a two-state solution--which was the original decision of the UN.

Hamas and Iranian leaders and other radicals still don't accept the right of Israel to exist. So when ironically Sharon himself, chief author and leader of the Israeli brutality that has taken place, stopped the occupation and pulled out of Gaza, Hamas's reaction was to make a coup d'etat against the Palestinian Authority and wage war on Israel.

You need to understand that peace has been possible for 60 years if Israel's neighbors were willing to accept its right to exist. That is shown by the fact that when Jordan and Egypt were willing to make peace, it happened quickly, and the peace has been kept. It is those who believe like Hamas who have been the destroyers of the possibility of peace.

I pray that the guns and bombs on both sides will stop, the killing will stop, today, and peace will at last come this year to all in this long suffering region.

timd's picture

I remember, from a QI episode (Stephen Fry's trivia/comedy quiz), that Edward de Bono recommended offering them Marmite to put on their bread, the theory being that yeastfree bread contains no zinc, a lack of zinc makes people belligerent.

Tim

AzizMostafa's picture

> The United Nations declared a two-state solution, and the united Arab countries did not accept it.

1. Who created the United Nations?
2. From where did/does UN take Commands?
3. Did the map of the 2 states show the borders of Israel?
4. Or borders were left to expand as far as the 2 Blues Lines?!

> .. and in 1948 tried to drive the Jews into the sea, as they put it.

How could that be? Who tried to drive who?
Remember Israel was created in 1948.

> Israel also, led by Ariel Sharon, engaged in a long and brutal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, which compromised it morally and, in my view, undermined its security.

Absolutely true, Ariel Sharon was a Bloody Terrorist?!

> After this long history of war and folly there is finally acceptance of the existence of Israel by it seems most Arab governments, and agreement on a two-state solution—which was the original decision of the UN.

Which one of those Arab governments was democratically elected?
1+2 Mobark+Hosayan have been respectively ruling Eygpt+Jordan for more that 30 years.
3. Tribe of Saud wrongfully converted the land of Muslims to a Kingdom
and named it after their Tribe confiscating by that rights of all other tribes.

Moreover, all the 3 corrupt Rulers have been backed by US and all backed Saddam;
http://typophile.com/node/29708?page=4#comment-171294

> Hamas’s reaction was to make a coup d’etat against the Palestinian Authority and wage war on Israel.

But Hamas was democratically under the eyes of UN watching team.
1. Was the team bribed by Hamas?
2. Or the Majority of Gaza people were terrorists?
________________________________________________________________________________
P.S. I do not believe in Democracy but in True Islamic Leadership (Be it Arab or non-Arab).

James Arboghast's picture

Tim, that's a nice example of wit & satire used as incisive social criticism. Thanks!

William, thanks for the excellent summary / revision history.

There is something wrong with the world's most powerful "democracy", something basic and terrible, if the Washington has nothing to say about this horrific conflict, in effect allowing it to take place. Silent complicity!

j a m e s

AzizMostafa's picture

> Here's another example of the world’s most powerful “Democracy”
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/NEWUSEMBASSYINIRAQ.HTML
Thanks for building my country (with Flowers)

Typedog's picture

Thanks for building my country (with Flowers)

If not with flowers then with what? Some poor confused peasant strapped with bombs blown-up to the liking of Hamas?
Remember Husseini?

James Arboghast's picture

Thank you Aziz for that WTV ZONE link.

In the face of the complicit silence from the government of the world's most powerful "democracy", the peeple have taken to the streets in protest. More than 21,000 in Paris, setting alite three cars and overturning twenty. In London protestors lobbed their shoes at the door of #10 Downing street and yelled "shame" out to Gordon Brown, whose spokesman issued a bullshit press statement.

j a m e s

Typedog's picture

@William Berkson

Agreed, thanks for the info.

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

> Remember Husseini?

Referring to the above picture, I have spotted 2 nazi-crosses but failed to associate them with Husseini. Things do not appear natural.
Is that a fabricated one?

Scrutinize it before replying.

William Berkson's picture

Aziz, the Wikipedia biography includes a detailed discussion of al-Husayni's Fascist and Nazi sympathies and collaboration, and his role as leader of radical anti-Jewish efforts in Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Had Arab leaders had a policy of tolerance and taking full advantage of the talents of the new Jewish immigrants from Europe--as we in America have had for immigrants into the US--there would have been peace and prosperity, and by the way in all likelihood no majority Jewish state. Al-Husayni and other Jew-haters seem to have had a key role in creating Israel, though that of course was not their intention.

As to the Israeli war of independence, there is no doubt whatsoever that Arab countries attacked the Jews in an effort to eliminate the newly declared Jewish state. That was their declared policy, while the Jews accepted the partition.

If you accept the UN partition, there is no doubt that this was Arab aggression. Of course, you might interpret the partition as Western agression that the Arabs were fighting against. But the Jews themselves were not the ones starting the war. They were pawns in the game, though pawns who wanted to live and were willing to fight for it.

About the partition itself, I have just been reading about it, and it's very interesting. The first thing to understand about it is that while the Jews and Arabs were the ones doing the fighting and dying, it was the big powers who created the situation. And that was true going way back: The Arabians conquered the near East--which if I'm not mistaken is why you speak Arabic rather than Aramaic--then the Persians and Turks and finally British had their turns as powers--which is why you and I can communicate in English.

If you just focus on demonizing the Jews I think you will radically misunderstand the realities of the history, and its true lessons.

Also the idiocy and tragedy of the initial years of Bush policy in Iraq is not all there is to democracy. Unfortunately democracy is no guarantee of good leadership; it does enable you to remove bad leaders without bloodshed, but only when the society respects democratic process. That respect for democratic process in turn depends on rule of law, education, a free press, and respecting the rights of minorities. Had you had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never remained in power for so long.

Also there is, unfortunately, little democratic control over foreign policy. When the British were developing democracy and were prospering at home partly because of it, they were doing all kinds of horrible things as colonial power which they would never do at home. An indication of the positive power of democratic influence is that even Bush had to listen to a democratically elected government in Iraq.

AzizMostafa's picture

Until the 1970s biographies of the mufti were written by Zionists, such as Moshe Pearlman, Joseph Schechtman, and Eliahu Elath, who attempted to vilify him...
And the link you mentioned is not an exception

Here are some extractions from a relatively less biased site:
http://www.answers.com/topic/amin-al-husayni:

As a Moslem scholar/leader, Husayni sought to establish an Arab state in Palestine. Unable to end JEWISH IMMIGRATION, he led a violent Arab revolt (1936-1939) against the Zionists and the British but failed, as did his attempt to STOP the creation of Israel in 1948.

Because he feared Zionism would cause the eventual domination or expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland, he participated in an anti-Zionist demonstration in 1920.

Indeed, he cooperated with the British Palestine government in the 1920s and early 1930s, attempting to change British policy by appealing to the British and by holding a General Islamic Congress in 1931 to galvanize the Arab and Islamic world against Zionism and to goad them to pressure Britain. Instead, the British allowed Jewish immigration to increase to 61,854 in 1935, which radicalized the Palestinians...

> If you accept the UN partition, there is no doubt that this was Arab aggression.
1. Proven today that UN is worse than useless.
2. Israel+US have constantly proved to be UN-Resolutions Makers+Breakers.

> Had you had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never remained in power for so long.

Had US had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never come to power. We never asked for help. All we aske(d) not to disturb.

US created Sanyora of Lebanon against Narollah.
US created Abbas of Palastine against Hamas.
US created Al-Maliki of Iraq against Al-Sadr.
++ created ...

"Get out of our land" has been translated into a shoe-throwing show?!

> An indication of the positive power of democratic influence is that even Bush had to listen to a democratically elected government in Iraq.

A Big Joke? Iraqis has realized that they have been fooled democratically?!

Typedog's picture

Is this better? He had allot to do In planting the seed of evil in Palestine. Nazi Ideology was supported by him and his followers. Many fabrications can be made in photoshop, however this is not fake he wanted and did form an alliance with Hitler in-order to derail the Jews train to Palestine. If you do not believe me do the research.

AzizMostafa's picture

> Many fabrications can be made in photoshop

... as done to the first picture you posted.

2nd. In Islam
1. Fighting defensively+morally in the way of God is a must.
2. Starting a war aggressively for any reason is forbidden.
3. Working against 1+2 is hypocrisy.

4. Islam holds the Sate + Religious Authority inseparable.
5. The 2 heads — State + Religious Authority— could be be One.
6. The 2 heads complements one another.
7. The Religious Authority has to interfere if the State affairs worsen.
8. The State is not allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority.

The enemy of God exploit Religion + corrupt in the land:
http://typophile.com/node/29708?page=4#comment-172838
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-r...
____________________________________

1. Does your religion hold the Sate + Religious Authority separable or inseparable?
2. Could the 2 heads — State + Religious Authority— be One?
3. Should the 2 heads go complementary or in different/opposite directions?
4. Is the Religious Authority allowed to interfere in the State affairs?
5. Is the State allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority?
____________________________________
Short + Accurate Answers without mix-up, please!

Micha Mirck's picture

the big question for us should be; can we help both parties with good typography?

ak's picture

people! please take this elsewhere.
some us would appreciate a respite
from the awful daily news.

James Arboghast's picture

ak, you are at liberty to ignore this thread. We have freedom of speech here at typophile and my typophile blog is no exception. If this discussion is offputting for you then please ignore it & walk away.

This thread exists because, like all the other peeple protesting the hell on earth in Gaza, I am outraged, sickened, utterly disgusted by the violence & bloodshed.

Micha—that's a nice idea, if everybody could give that some thought.

j a m e s

dontbugme's picture

"Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution."

That is categorically untrue. It was always (and is) in Israels power to make two states, but it willfully chose to expand its own territory through settlements and territorial expansion using walls and Israeli citizens as a tool of colonialism. Whenever it has offered a two-state solution, it has been in terms that would be unacceptably to any state or people. To put a long story short, Israel is no different than Hamas in thinking that it owns exclusive rights to Israel and Palestinian territory, and if you think the Israelis are willing to co-exist with the Palestinians you are sadly mistaken - this is the very reason they have explicitly denied the Palestinians their right to return to their homes in Israel (and the very reason they are not recognized as citizens of any state).

AzizMostafa's picture

@ Dontbugme: ..they have explicitly denied the Palestinians their right
to return to their homes in Israel...

... because their homes were confiscated to HIGHLY TALENTED NEW JEWISH IMMIGRANTS from Europe

@ William Berkson: Had Arab leaders had a policy of tolerance and taking
full advantage of the talents of the new Jewish immigrants from Europe...

Hope Dontbugme has answered you.

William Berkson's picture

Aziz, dontbugme is wrong about the history, but I don't time to post right now, and give references and links. I will later.

J. Craigen's picture

ak—some of us enjoy the respite from the awful daily apathy. It's nice to have somewhere with a variety of sources being referenced and an open, tolerant, and intelligent discussion. If you don't want a part of it, don't click on it.

Miss Tiffany's picture

I'll agree that a thread like this is dangerous, but putting it a blog is probably the only place it belongs on Typophile. Please consider this an intellectual discussion and leave play school antics at the door.

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

No the photo's are as real as the problem that continues in Israel.

>Starting a war aggressively for any reason is forbidden+Hamas

There are two sides to a coin

Guerrizmo+Design

Jack B. Nimblest Jr.'s picture

"Is the State allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority?"
The struggle by religions to govern the material and by states to govern the spiritual, just is, and they work it out or not. Or, do you mean, can one country allow some of it citizens to lob rockets into Israel on Christmas Day? Or, do you mean, can a State take an equally prized parcel of holy property away from one Religious Authority and give it to another?

Cheers!

gohebrew's picture

Where does typography and type design have anything to do with politics?

Hamas are cowards, like anyone hiding behind the veil of terrorism. Yes, Hamas are cowards, whose choice victims are innocent civilians.

It is huge hypocracy to condemn Israel's efforts to destroy Hamas, when these same voices which criticize Israel, are silent when Hamas missiles are aimed at Israeli citizens.

Let us not forget that the people of Gaza elected Hamas, and support them to this day.

Get off the hypocritical soap box, dump Hamas into the trash can (trash is too good for them, although they are filthy garbage), and peace will follow.

(Have an easy fast.)

AGL's picture

Forty plus years HOT potato!

It is Goliah agaisnt the little guy! Interestingly enough is the timing : US is on a transition.

End quotes.

gohebrew's picture

AGL,

Goliah was an evil human monster. His interest was ONLY harm.

King David was the defender of Israel's honor and protector of his people.

To twist each other's role is deceitful.

In the Hagada (booklet read of Passover), we Jews state that in every generation, enemies like Hamas rise up against, and are destroyed.

May the decietful not stand in the way. Yes, you.

Typedog's picture

The only solution is two create TWO countries, separate religion from state.
Rid the country of it's evil elements on both side's.
The country houses not one religion, but three major religions.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

The solution is teach Hamas that they must live with others who reject their views, namely Jews.

But can you teach an old dog a new trick?

I think an Islamic fanatic who worships Jewish blood that spills can not be taught anything except when a bullet rests in his head!

Only after this happens, then the Islamic fanatic realizes that Allah wishes him or her dead.

timd's picture

>Where does typography and type design have anything to do with politics?

What excludes typographers and type designers from having an interest in those who govern us?

Would it be anti-democratic to note that past elections and future elections loom over this whole fiasco, and that if the enfranchised do not take an active interest in their politicians they are just as guilty as their representatives. The coincidence of lame ducks and the possibly-soon-to-be-unempowered is creating an atmosphere that can be exploited for the purposes of garnering positive public opinion and reaction. Would the overwhelming reaction to Hamas’ rockets have anything to do with the relatively ineffective action taken in 2006 in Lebanon where Hezbollah were almost able to claim victory by virtue of not being heavily defeated?

Tim

Typedog's picture

gohebrew

I agree Hamas is the thorn in the lions paw, however violence solves nothing only pain.
Israel, is where I want to go one day and visit both sides in peace.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

Typedog,

In an ideal world, we can turn another cheek, like Jesus taught, and Gandhi practiced.

But we live in a cruel world. Therefore, the Jewish Bible teaches us to be realistic. There are Bin Ladens and Hamas hypocrites. It teaches to destroy the enemy before they destroy us.

After all the Hamas' and the Bin Ladens are irradicated, then we can bury violence, too.

Typedog's picture

gohebrew

Sad but it's true. We must liquidate these evil beings.

I am a Catholic and I know Christians also have it tough in the EAST.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

Tim,

Here is not the place to debate these matters.

Instead of coming closer through our talents, sympathizers for the "poor Palestinian people" become pitted against those who see it like Israel.

Nasrallah and his fakes, like Hamas, are only placated by their destruction.

When we feel sorry for the people or children they stand behind, these murderous creeps rise up later to continue.

Mercy means to destroy them, even if the so-called innocent are destroyed as well.

Do not forget that they voted in Hamas, and cheered when Nasrallah dislocated hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians.

Don't expect me to feel sorry for them.

nina's picture

But we live in a cruel world. Therefore, the Jewish Bible teaches us to be realistic. There are Bin Ladens and Hamas hypocrites. It teaches to destroy the enemy before they destroy us.

It's pretty sad when both sides are taught that by their religions.
It's even sadder when the people who are taught such things believe them to
the letter and don't see through the venom and misguided pride they breathe.

Can you see there are humans on the other side? Humans, who live, breathe, work, talk, pray, meet friends, buy food (if they can get some), eat, sleep, crap, laugh and cry? Humans who design type, for God's sake? Humans who are scared, and humans who then suddenly live no more? –
I'm not trying to make you "feel sorry for them," and please note that I'm not aiming to play down their crimes, their violence, their killings. I'm trying to make you see what this is, on a very basic level.

Palestinians are not abstract personifications of violence, hate, and evil, "so-called civilians" whose raison d'être is to be worthless moving covers for the Bad Guys. They are humans, and they have hope, and dreams, they have pride, and they have a sense of home. And they have a right to live. Just like you do – and rightfully so. But their feelings aren't any less rightful than yours, and that's the painful and difficult part that is sometimes blotted out by gunfire and war rhetoric.

So, which path are you going to choose? One would be for Israelis and Palestinians to stop viewing each other as "enemies to be destroyed", but as partners calling the same land their home*; and trying to find a way to live together in something resembling peace. That's going to be hard, and painful, and you're not going to get your way all the way.
The other option of course is to attempt to kill them all, completely subjugate them, or drive them out of their homeland. Although you might consider that's been tried before; it doesn't work particularly well, and it doesn't look good either.

* And please don't suppose I don't think both sides would need to do serious homework for this.

Not that I'd really still believe people would learn from history. And I realize much of this post is a hopelessly romantic appeal. But hey, it's worth a try to remind people not to realize the horror of humanitarian catastrophes only after the fact. Like what happened to the Jews themselves (and part of my own family with them, by the way). To the Armenians. Want a list?

Can you see that a Palestinian's life is not any less valuable than an Israeli's?

gohebrew's picture

a...

Hypocracy.

If someone is so evil, he or she seeks your destruction, then kill them first. (Bible)

If you stand behind fake kindness, fake compassion, then you die and the evil-doer is free to do more evil.

You can not compare self-defense to murder. This is clear hypocracy.

nina's picture

You can not compare self-defense to murder.

So which definition applies to Israel bombing that mosque, killing the people who were praying in there?

Yes, that was a rhetorical question.

Yes, it's very easy to always be the victim. It entitles you to whatever.
Israel is not the victim anymore. Israel is killing people. Israel has power. And Israel needs to learn to use it in a responsible way.

gohebrew's picture

If a mosque houses the Hamas terrorists, it must be destroyed. That is kindness. Because as a result, real innocent civilians will not be murdered.

It seems that this simple logic is beyond you.

gohebrew's picture

The Bible says that happy is the one who smashes their babies against the wall.

If that baby murders later in life, happy is the one who smashes him or her early on.

Do you agree?

nina's picture

Um… no.

I also don't think we speak the same language.

gohebrew's picture

It's a shame that you think that kindness means allowing a murderer to live and kill another person.

After hearing the widespread hypocracy from many people, many liberals, etc., who never spoke out when kassams reigned in Sderot year after year, but now when some Arab dies as a human shield for a Hamas terrorist, they scream and yell that Israel is the bad guy.

William Berkson's picture

First, let me dissociate myself from gohebrew's comments. Where in the Bible does it recommend smashing babies? That is just revolting, and I would certainly repudiate it if it says so with approval, which I very much doubt. Your interpretation of the 'rodef' law is dangerously close to that of the assassin of Yitzchak Rabin, and is false and dangerous. I hope you think better of it.

Fortunately, the prophets and Jewish post-biblical sages make clear that the chief Jewish values are kindness, justice and humility. Not joy in killing the "enemy". Even though self-defense is legitimate, it is against Jewish values to rejoice in your enemy's suffering.

Aziz, let me address your comments, first generally. We all have a choice about whether to see the solution of the world's problems either in effective cooperation with others different from us, on one hand, and, on the other hand, in destroying our "enemies". The dividing the world into "us" and "them", the enemy, is the first step to dehumanizing others, and giving an excuse for brutality and suffering.

The "us and them", black and white thinking is also destructive of peace, prosperity, and love.

I see the same kind of "us and them" thinking in your comments, and in gohebrew's comments. In your case, you seem to think that stopping Jewish immigration into Palestine was sufficient justification for al-Husayni's leading anti-Jewish riots, and seeking Hitler's help. (For the latter, see the Telegram from Himmler to Husayni in the Wikipedia article.)

I, on the contrary, think that is exactly the kind of backward, tribal, us-and-them thinking that keeps the middle east in war and the Arab peoples in poverty. It is leaders who exploit nationalism to keep in power and control the populace, against its own true interests.

As I said, the US has been at times far more enlightened as concerns immigration. Currently, about 10% of US residents are foreign-born. And during one earlier period great immigration, 1890-1910, millions of Jews came to the US, including my grandparents. While we have our scoundrels also--such as the infamous Madoff--the US as benefited greatly from this immigration, as well as from immigrants from other groups all over the world.

For example, one of those immigrants was the Jewish (but irreligious) John von Neumann, the math genius who invented the architecture of the computer you are using to design your Arabic fonts. Cooperation = productivity.

The key issue to me is the ability to see the faults and sins of your own group, and the humanity and merits of the other. That is the foundation of peace and cooperation, and I am saddened that I haven't read in any of your comments acknowledgment of the evil done by anti-Jewish Arab terrorists, or of the good done by Jews in Israel and around the world.

I am sickened by the current war, and do fault Israel for its settlement policies under Begin and Sharon. I don't know enough about the situation to know whether the current war could have been avoided by wiser Israeli policy. But I certainly do see the Hamas policy of attacking Israel with the declared intent to destroy it, even after Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as very wrong.

I pray that both sides will be able to think beyond "us and them", and make peace.

Typedog's picture

I don-not want to offend my Jewish brothers in any way, but smashing babies against the wall is something Nazis did in order to silence crying children.

Guerrizmo+Design

Typedog's picture

I don-not want to offend my Jewish brothers in any way, but smashing babies against the wall is something Nazis did in order to silence crying children.

Guerrizmo+Design

Typedog's picture

I don-not want to offend my Jewish brothers in any way, but smashing babies against the wall is something Nazis did in order to silence crying children.

Guerrizmo+Design

Typedog's picture

WTF? why is this site so slow and I have a fast connection.

William Berkson's picture

Typedog, I found the passage that Gohebrew refers to.

It is at the end of Psalm 137. This poem is a bitter lamentation and cry for vengeance by those who were themselves subject to mass murder and exile from Jerusalem into Babylon. It begins with the famous lines about weeping by the waters of Babylon, and concludes by crying out for vengeance against those who urged the Babylonian armies to killing and destruction. Here are the concluding lines in the recent translation of Alter: "Recall, O Lord, the Edomites, on the day of [the destruction of] Jerusalem, saying "Raze it, raze it, to its foundation!" Daughter of Babylon the despoiler, happy who pays you back in kind, for what you did to us. Happy who seizes and smashes your infants against the rock."

It is a total perversion of Judaism to read this as anything but a cry of despair. It is never interpreted as a divine commandment. On the contrary, the Torah is generally against vengeance, having many passages against it. The exception is a defensive war, but even there, strict limits exist, including doing everything to avoid the death of non-combatants. The written Torah was interpreted extensively in later Jewish tradition, generally pushing everything in the direction of being as humane and peaceful as possible, while preserving the right of self-defense.

Indeed, in the current war the Israeli phone calls to civilians to vacate anything to be bombed is a reflection of Jewish law on protecting non-combatants.

Unfortunately today's weaponry is so powerful and hard to control that it often kills non-combatants, against traditional Jewish law. This leads to difficult moral dilemmas even for the most conscientious leaders of a war. (Of course Hamas has no problems about targeting non-combatants, including any Jew around the world they feel like targeting.)

Here is a very thoughtful discussion of Jewish and other views on war, in the current context of the Israel-Palestine wars:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/crdc/docs/j_limitsofwar_and_cr.html

In crediting the Israelis for their efforts to limit civilian casualities, I am not saying that this war was necessary. It may well have been, but I just don't know enough to judge the situation from this distance.

I do know that it is horrible and sickening. I fear that nothing good will come of it, though I would be very happy if it turns out to be the last battle of a 60 year war.

In any case I pray for the safety of non-combatants, and for a quick and lasting peace.

Typedog's picture

William Berkson

Thank you for the most useful website link.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

William,

> First, let me dissociate myself from gohebrew’s comments. Where in the Bible does it recommend smashing babies?

I am surprized that you are not familiar with this famous statement from King David. Over a million Jews say it daily, as we recite it as an introduction to the Grace After Meals in chapter 137, verse 9. Look it up.

How can the Bible advise such a cruel response to a seemingly innocent baby?

If you knew that baby would eventually grow up and murder your grandchildren as a suicide bomber, you would then see that act of smashing as true kindness.

Hamas would prefer that you think otherwise.

gohebrew's picture

Typedog,

> I do not want to offend my Jewish brothers in any way, but smashing babies against the wall is something Nazis did in order to silence crying children.

Offense is based upon understanding. The Nazis smashed babies out of cruelty and hatred.

When the Bible advises this extreme behavior, the aim, is not cruelty and hatred. Rather, the goal is pure kindness and compassion.

In order to prevent later cruelty and hatred, such as action is recommended, recommended, now.

gohebrew's picture

Again, Judaism is NOT Christianinty.

We reject fake kindness. We look at the whole picture. That's why we are longing lasting people, because we seek to embrace the truth.

gohebrew's picture

William,

> It is a total perversion of Judaism to read this as anything but a cry of despair.

Where do you invent your interpretations?

Ayn am haaretz chossid. (Pirkei Avot)

True, the superficial meaning is as you say. But sheeveem pahneem leTorah, Torah has many explanations.

If any decent human being realizes that mass destruction will come through a seemingly innocent party, certain that decent human being will desire to erradicated that innocent party.

I am certain every decent person will desire this, for it is pure and simple logic.

William Berkson's picture

GoHebrew, you have not read my discussion of the passage, above. Your reasoning about it--"If you knew the baby would grow up" etc.--is odious and would license every kind of cruelty. It is the reasoning of dogmatists and fanatics. It assumes that you are both certain to be right, and certain about the future--both of which are impossible, but fanatics regularly assume they know. This arrogance licenses war and cruelty.

Such reasoning is not part of Jewish law, and it is very irresponsible to misrepresent it as you have. It gives a very false and perverted impression of Jewish tradition.

Such statements are not scholarship or piety, but poisonous rubbish. Read Rabbi Gopin's thoughtful and fair discussion of these issues, linked above.

gohebrew's picture

William,

> In any case I pray for the safety of non-combatants, and for a quick and lasting peace.

I pray that Hamas and all evil-doers are destryoed forever.

I disagree with your phrase: "non-combatants". This is real cruelty. If one wishes that innocent Israelis should die, then I pray they die a cruel death first.

According to the Bible as explained in the Talmud, lasting peace refers to demonstration superior strength to your enemy, so that he sees it doesn't pay to start up with you.

What you are stating has no basis in Torah. Perhaps, only in Christianity and liberal non-religious thinking.

gohebrew's picture

Bill,

Come on. You know what I'm saying.

If an Arab wants to kill a Jew, it is a mitzvah, a mitzvah, to kill him first.

Maybe, a goy in Swiss. can not relatee, but you should.

Why did G-d instruct us to eradicate Amalek, even their babies? Why was King Saul punished when he negleced to do so?

I'm not advocating a license to kill babies, just those that will end up murdering Jews. Are you such a liberal non-religious Jew to prefer not to see this?

Typedog's picture

gohebrew

As far as religion are you saying Christians and our beliefs are fake?

Guerrizmo+Design

William Berkson's picture

>What you are stating has no basis in Torah.

Gohebrew, read Rabbi Gopin's essay, above and see the plentiful basis. He has the references to Torah and Talmud and Maimonides: go, read and learn, and stop spouting rubbish.

gohebrew's picture

Typedog,

> If America and all its allies turn its back on Israel, Israel would be nothing. As far as religion are you saying Christians are fake and our beliefs?

First, I believe that even if America and its allies turn its back..., I trust G-d would do open miracles for Israel, like in the Six Day War and when Irag sent 39 missiles over Israel. America and its allies support Israel for their own interests.

No, I am not saying this at all. The Talmud advises us to accept wisdom from every source, not only Jewish. There are many great wise terachings from Jesus, and great examples of selfless humanity from among the Christians.

nina's picture

"Maybe, a goy in Swiss. can not relatee, but you should."

I suspect anyone who hasn't been brainwashed by hate speech can not relate.

gohebrew's picture

altaira,

> I suspect anyone who hasn’t been brainwashed by hate speech can not relate.

I personally agree that truth is universal.

Some 'goyim' and also Jews by birth are 'pig-headed', and refuse to believe the truth even when it stares them in the face.

We are promised that if we conduct our life in accord with either 613 mitzvot or 7 Noahide laws, then these truths become easy to accept.

Typedog's picture

gohebrew

Understood, Thank you for clearing things up and yes I believe in GOD miracles.
As far as the Six Day War yes it was a blessing from GOD.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

Bill,

I read the article.

Besides being long winded, like many scholarly papers, I failed to see the basis in Torah writings. It seemed closer to his own thinkin, with a few scattered sources. It you looked at his footnotes, he fails to show how even one source applies to his point.

Perhaps, you want to summarize in a few paragraphs his main points.

What I presented above is pure and simple logic. No Israeli wants to go to war, to conquer, to die in battle. All Israelis would much rather picnic with their families.

I think that the tolerance level for Hamas crap and their missiles led Israel to say, 'enough is enough'.

When Hamas is destroyed, and Palestinians want to coexist, there will be lasting peace. In the meantime, those that seek Israel's destructiom will be destroyed.

William Berkson's picture

Israel, Gopin is an Orthodox Rabbi as well as an academic expert on negotiation and peace. He has very extensive knowledge of the sacred texts on this issue. In his article he only cited the most key ones, because his audience were not Torah scholars.

I see now that Gopin is on the Board of Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the pro-Israel pro-peace organization.

I listened to this long discussion of the current situation, which he did in a phone call from Jerusalem to Brit Tzedek people in the US. I felt for the first time that I was starting to understand what is going on.

I would be interested in what Aziz's reaction to it is. It is, as you say, long winded, but very good also.

I found his statement that the key to progress involves "deep compassion for both sides" moving and true, and what I was trying to say to Aziz above.

As to "pure and simple logic", I don't think you understand logic, because your argument is anything but logical. I will post later on this, and also answer Aziz's question on religion and state.

timd's picture

>Here is not the place to debate these matters.

But it is apparently the place to promote infanticide.

>Do not forget that they voted in Hamas

I had not forgotten that either.

Tim

William Berkson's picture

Israel, you quote sources with such adeptness, I fear that someone may think that you actually understand them. As far as I'm concerned you show about as much understanding as my neighbor's cat.

>If an Arab wants to kill a Jew, it is a mitzvah, a mitzvah, to kill him first.

No it is an averah, a sin, known as murder. You are NOT permitted to kill someone for what they think or want. If someone raises a knife to me I am permitted to stab him first, or raises a gun to shoot me, can shoot him first. But that is something he DOES, not thinks, and it puts me in immanent danger of losing my life. Only then is lethal self-defense permitted. Even then, Maimonides says that if I have another way to stop him, it is murder if I don't instead use the non-lethal method to stop him.

I'm sure my wife wanted to kill me quite a few times, but that doesn't give me permission to kill her first. By your standards, every husband and wife would be dead in short order.

>I’m not advocating a license to kill babies, just those that will end up murdering Jews. Are you such a liberal non-religious Jew to prefer not to see this?

No, I prefer not to advocate wickedness. You don't know what that baby will do when he or she grows up and it is height of arrogance and wickedness for anyone to decide in advance that an innocent baby will one day deserve death, and to act on that now. That is terrorist thinking, and everyone should repudiate it.

gohebrew's picture

Bill,

> No it is an averah, a sin, known as murder. You are NOT permitted to kill someone for what they think or want.

This is clearly inaccurate according to Torah or Biblical law.

See Rashi's commentary about Abraham, when non-Jews merely plotted in their thoughts to harm him. As a result of these wrongful thoughts, thoughts, they were rendered 'chayav meetah m'ya'dei shamayim' - they are liable for heavenly death.

Also, the law in Shulchan Orech regarding non-Jewish bandits who seek to steal wheat on the border, then even if the day is the Sabbath,and the victims are law-abiding Sabbath-observant folks, nevertheless Shulchan Orech instructs the victims to exit their home on the Sabbath, and kill, yes kill, the non-Jewish bandits on the Sabbath. Why? If they only intended to steal, really they also intended to kill.

Judaism promotes murder if the purpose is save Jewish life, regardless of whether you think it's mennshickiet or not.

gohebrew's picture

Bill,

> I’m sure my wife wanted to kill me quite a few times, but that doesn’t give me permission to kill her first. By your standards, every husband and wife would be dead in short order.

This is foolish. As an intelligent articulate person, how cn you present such silly argument?

Domestic tranquilty, knowns as 'shalom bait', is the aim of observing every detail of Torah laws. The goal is not to promote watton murder of the heads of a household, but rather to do almost everything tobring the coupl together. Look at Moses' older brother Aaron who even lied to bring a couple to love each other again.

Don't you know this story?

gohebrew's picture

William,

> ... is terrorist thinking, and everyone should repudiate it.

Repudiate. Big deal!

ERADICATE. Are you going to shake your finger at a Hamas terrorist, as he pulls the trigger to kill you.

Is this Reform Judaism? No wonder it is shrinking year after year? In the end, it will simply become another form of modernday Christianity!

gohebrew's picture

timd,

> the place to promote infanticide

An Israeli baby in Sderot doesn't count. Only a poor Palestinian.

The Israeli baby may be murdered by a Hamas missile, but heaven forfend if the Palestinian baby is hurt. His or her p[arents who raiise him or her to become a suicide bomber is really innocent, just a product of his or her poverty.

But the Israeli baby deserves to dies, because he or she has a few bucks.

timd, is thathow you think?

William Berkson's picture

Israel, Rashi's commentary is about what GOD decided to do, not what men and women are permitted to do. It doesn't surprise me that you mix up Man and God, given that the rest of your analysis is so muddled. I have had enough, and won't track down how you've misinterpreted the passage from Shulchan Aruch.

I really hope another Chabadnik will come on here and repudiate your pseudo-scholarship. Meanwhile, have a peaceful Shabbat, and I hope next week you'll stop posting this hateful stuff.

And yes, though I don't know whether Israel should have started this latest battle, I pray that they win a better situation afterwards: no rockets coming into the South, and no suicide bombers. I also pray that the leaders in Gaza will be devoted to building up their people, instead of being obsessed with tearing down Israel.

Sorours's picture

gohebrew, some link to help you to open your mind.

History of the Jews in Morocco
The Jews of Morocco
Pact of Umar
Islam and Judaism

timd's picture

>timd, is thathow you think?

No, that is your interpretation of how I think. I would never consider that killing babies is a solution. I believe you suggested it, by justifying those actions to preserve your grandchildren you justify the actions of your “enemies”.

The Bible says that happy is the one who smashes their babies against the wall.

If that baby murders later in life, happy is the one who smashes him or her early on.

If you knew that baby would eventually grow up and murder your grandchildren as a suicide bomber, you would then see that act of smashing as true kindness.

gohebrew's picture

In order to logicaly debate, the issues upon which we disagree must be delineated and understood, and the issues upon which we agree must also be delineated and understood.

What do we agree upon?

The currently ruling government in Gaza of Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist, and has acted violently to murder Israelis for many years through missiles and suicide bombers.

If Hamas ceased to exist or be of no influence upon the Gazan people, then there would be no more war in Gaza, and the Israelis would harm no one anymore in Gaza.

Do we agree upon this?

Does Israel have the right to defend its people?

If Hamas hides behind the Gazan people, does Israel have a right to defend its people, even if Gazans will be harmed or killed in the process of innocent Israeli people?

Upon what do we disagree?

I agree that no human being can decide that a baby will ultimately become a murderer or a suicide bomber, and be killed still as a baby.

No ordinary human being is so endowered in determining the future.

My point is with regard to clear obviously factors. What are those? They are nothing that we are familiar with.

In Torah laws, there is a distinction between chayav mitah b'yadei shamaya'im, and ...b'yadei adam.

In the example of Abraham, this is a case of chayav mitah b'yadei shamaya'im, where a person is liable to be killed through the agency of heaven. Certainly, a nation which seeks the destruction of Israel is in the category of being liable to be killed through the agency of heaven.

In the case brought in Shulchan Orech and quoted repeatedly by the late seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe of thieves who steal wheat on a border town, this is a case of people who are liable to be killed through the agency of people. Certainly, a nation which seeks to harm Israel is in the category of being liable to be killed through the agency of people.

No Chabadnik, like no yirat shamayim, would dispute these words.

I also hope that Israel's enemies are completely eradicated. I hope the Palestinians too have a government interested in making people, and having a people grow to their true potential.

gohebrew's picture

Aziz,

The source that you bring above is white supremacy trash. Do you really adhere to the nonsense?

I thought that you are more intelligent than beinving such lies.

The Quran rejects this garbage, and similar untruths which cause people to hate each other.

When people live together in harmony, love, and truth, the differences between us is never interfere. A trully beautiful piece of art is not bland, but weaves different colors and patters together.

Only the foolish leader in Iran promotes such a lie. I am really shocked that you bring this link.

Typedog's picture

It's
垃圾
쓰레기
отброс
basura
Garbage
----->>Whttp://podblanc.com/video-holocaust-lies-told-by-zionists-now-public

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

I guess if the poor Palestinians can not defend themselves through missiles aimed at civilians or suicide bombers, then they are helpless. Yes, poor poor Palestinians.

No wonder that they say 'war is hell'!

'I guess that they could always move into Aziz's house. But I'm sure that his wife wouldn't want 'em.

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

So do you believe now? You brought up the past history with bias point of view. I showed you the the parts of history you neglected to show along with your claim.

gohebrew

Why are you so angry? It is a crime when an innocent child (people) falls victim to war no matter what side. Having said that it is not a crime to liquidate terrorist, suicide bombers, and , any other merchant of chaos.

Guerrizmo+Design

gohebrew's picture

Typedog,

Why am I angry?

I am angry due to widespread hypocracy.

Real type designers are creative folks, and creativity requires attention to detail and intellectual honesty.

Yet, here intellectual dishonesty is widespread.

To sympathize with the poor Palestinians on account of Israeli aggression exists in the same breath as condemnation of Israeli civilians, even if they are school children, because Israel's army is stronger that Hamas and do not deserve our pity.

When the Israel Defense Force systematically destroys Hamas, these creative giants shout in protest. The poor Palestinians are being harmed!

Let's us recall that Hamas came to power because of these same Palestinians. Let us not forget that when Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis, but were miraculously saved by open miracles from G-d, while the Palestinians danced on roof-tops, hoping the missiles would kill innocent Israelis. On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children, as Allah was great and innocent people died in the US. Aziz can confirm this sick custom.

So, do you understand my anger at such hypocracy? Do you understand why I have not even a drop of sympathy for the Palestians?

If Hamas are buried in mass graves together with the poor Palestinians, then after a very short time, nobody in Europe will blink an eye. Their death will be quickly forgotten. So, we see how limited is their concern.

AzizMostafa's picture

Though the game was over with you:
http://typophile.com/node/48217?page=9#comment-301298
But you like playing more games.

> Let’s us recall that Hamas came to power because of these same Palestinians.

So you don't care if Palestinians elections were democratic!
Democracy is what Israel decides it is?!

> When Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis ...
... the Palestinians danced on roof-tops
> On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children.

1. The 2 above-mentioned crimes were not commmited by Palestinians.
... You know better who!
2. The so called "Israelis" are not innocent.
.... They made Palestinians homeless+prisoners in their homeland?
http://typophile.com/node/53099#comment-320712
3. Non-Palestinians danced also, will you launch more aggressions on non-Israelis?! Or you are too tolerant with Non-Palestinians?

Hope you understand my anger at such hypocracy?

>> If Hamas are buried in mass graves together with the poor Palestinians,
then after a very short time, nobody in Europe will blink an eye.
Their death will be quickly forgotten.

Summarized here:
http://podblanc.com/video-holocaust-lies-told-by-zionists-now-public

Typedog's picture

gohebrew

So then your no better then Jewish separatist (criminals), I should of known this before hand.

AzizMostafa

> On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children-----> such bull shit!

Again you keep putting up that biased web link with no credibility.
I sympathize for the victims who become collateral damage.

William Berkson's picture

Aziz, why do you think that that web site has any credibility? It is by white racists and neo-Nazis who have as much contempt for you as for me. It is full of lies.

By linking to that, it seems to me that you are just looking for reasons to hate, not to understand both sides, and get to peace.

If you want to understand the thinking of a liberal Jew who is sympathetic to Israel and also treasures Palestinian lives and sincerely wants peace, I can help you. If you just want to collect reasons to hate, no matter how false or incredible, I can't help you.

Here is what your new "friends" are up to in France, and here is what they are doing in Germany.

AzizMostafa's picture

... and in Australia too!
http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/The-Israel-Lobby........Jon-Kore...
Sorry William Berkson , I am a bit calculative.

gohebrew's picture

Did you notice that Aziz did not argue about the facts that the Palestinian did vote for the irrational and hateful Hamas party, gave out candies to their children on the original 9/11, or danced on the roof-tops during the Iraqi's SKUD missile attacks.

Aziz, do you deny this?

Rather, he pointed out that it was a democratic election, and that others danced too.

Whn the German people freely elected Hilter's Nazi party, this was the beginning of their own downfall, that to this very day many German youth come to Israel to do community service, to reduce their feelings of guilt. Here, the Palestinians feel no quilt.

Only a very evil people feel no quilt. Rather, they think that they are right, like Aziz's twisted attitute.

You will see that Hamas will prefer that the Palestinian people die by the thousands than to agree to a true cease-fire, and not to missiles into Israeli civilian centers.

In the end, I hop;e there will be true peace, and the Palestinians, like the Hamas, which hate Israelis with a passion, will be totally eradicated.

AzizMostafa's picture

> When Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis ...
... the Palestinians danced on roof-tops
> On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children.

1. The 2 above-mentioned crimes were not committed by Palestinians.
... You better know who committed them! Why eradicating them?
2. The so called “Israelis” are not innocent.
.... They made Palestinians homeless+prisoners in their homeland.
http://typophile.com/node/53099#comment-320712
... and what befalls on the enemy does please friends..
3. Non-Palestinians danced also, will you launch more aggressions on non-Palestinians?! Or you are too tolerant with non-Palestinians?
4. If a man kills your son and another man dances for that,
... will you kill the killer or the dancer first?

Answer my questions one by one, then I will answer yours.

William Berkson's picture

Israel, in the Talmud, Berachot lOa, Beruria admonishes her husband Rabbi Meir, saying that he should not pray for the death of sinners, but of sin. Similarly, you should hope not for the death of haters, but of hate. Yes, the state of Israel must defend itself, but we should not kill compassion--not least because it is the best hope of finding a way to live with others.

aluminum's picture

That photo Typedog posted was rather shocking. I had no idea Pete Townshend was a Nazi!

Typedog's picture

aluminum

HEHEHE.......All joking aside, the reason I presented theses pictures is because AzizMostafa wanted prove history was against him and his people. However he failed to mention his comrade Amin Al Husseini who like I mentioned had allot to do with implanting the seed of evil in modern Palestine.

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

>... because AzizMostafa wanted prove history was against him and his people.

Does Typedog want a proof that Math+History is against him+Zionists?
http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/The-Israel-Lobby........Jon-Kore...
Read line by line then answer with pictures if possible.

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

WTF, and I say this with kindest words how can I be a Zionists i am not even a Jew (Christian). Second you choose to believe what you want to believe history cannot be erased. I will not give you the satisfaction by reading biased material. Neo Nazis propaganda+AzizMostafa= mindless babel.

Read Mein Kampf after all it is # 1 in Middle East, I don't know why Hitler hated you most of all?

Guerrizmo+Design

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

Im am not against you or the Muslim nation, this is debate and should be handled as such.
I know Bosniaks (Bosnian) who study the Koran who do not want any part of the Middle Eastern problems.

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

> I am not even a Jew (Christian)

A Zionist Christian?! Actions speak louder than words.

> I know Bosniaks (Bosnian) who study the Koran
who do not want any part of the Middle Eastern problems.

1. What did UN+US do to the Bosniaks? They were stripped of Chile-like land so that they would not get any access to the sea.
2. The Middle Eastern problems were created by the West.
To solve problems is to eradicate the causes not the consequences.
A state built on lies wont last. Remember South Africa.
So give back the land to its owner and allow all those who were cheated to migrate to the wrongfully created "Israel" to collect their belongings and go back home. According to Islam, Christianity+Judaism.

AzizMostafa's picture

Sorry Double-Post!

Typedog's picture

A Zionist Christian----->No not at all. The problem's might of been created by the West yes this is true. However they probably did it so there would never ever be a Islamic flag hanging from the White House?

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

> However they probably did it so there would never ever be a Islamic flag hanging from the White House?

No need to hang up an Islamic flag, just make the US-flag carry 51 stars not 50, and take away space of one or more states to take in the new immigrants.
Impossibly easy?! Better if the 51 stars are replaced with Flowers.

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

You definitely have problems, yeah all those who come from your part of the world with flowers?
Haha whatever man! Before I go here's another picture!

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

That's the Islam of Taliban who were created and backed by US+KSA for 3+ reasons:
1. To stand against Iran. Good example: Slaughtering of the 9 Iranian diplomats.
2. To make them rule in the name of Islam to spoil its image and the reputation of the anti-ex-Russia freedom-fighters. Then:
3. To attack the Stupid+Crooked Taliban after 9/11 as Terrorists.
All that to divert Muslims from Islam +force Democracy on them.

Zionism exploitation of the Stupid+Crooked. The Goal justifies the means.

Jack B. Nimblest Jr.'s picture

"2. The Middle Eastern problems were created by the West."

Those crazy Californians, someone stop them, or were they from Texas?

"2. To make [the Taliban] rule in the name of Islam to spoil its image and the reputation of the anti-ex-Russia freedom-fighters."

Israel made the freedom fighters spoil the image of Islam? Hiding behind the stone walls that fell down on the adulterous, perhaps?

If you live long enough... then all will be written. ;)

Cheers!

jupiterboy's picture

Guys. If we are ALL guilty we won’t be able to figure out who Jesus wants us to kill next.

gohebrew's picture

Yes, I admit it: I'm from California. Yes, I have friends from Texas, too. And I drink HUGE beers for havdallah!

But it's the Californian part of me that's against the Israeli aggression. They should just relocate to Oregon, I say.

Aziz should move to a new homestead in Mexico.

Come on, it's for the sake of middle east peace!

timd's picture

>Israel made the freedom fighters spoil the image of Islam? Hiding behind the stone walls that fell down on the adulterous, perhaps?

…erm I think KSA stands for Kingdom of Saudi Arabia not Israel – the two are easily confused.

Typedog, that image is hardly appropriate – the lack of unbiased reporting from Gaza is because the Israelis are not restricting reporters entry into the conflict zone – leaving two understandably biased sources, reporters embedded with the Israeli army and interviews with representatives of humanitarian organisations.

Tim

AzizMostafa's picture

Israel will never crush the Islamic Resistance of Hamas, because for Muslims it is always a win-win situation. Fight and win your occupied land back or die happily and gain martyrdom. But the Zionists fight so hard for a land that is not even theirs. For them it is a lose-lose situation. Fighting an indestructible enemy and never having freedom in the land they occupied or death after which there is no respite.

P.S. My postings here are addressed neither to the manipulative nor to those
who skip my questions and throw unrelated comments here+there.

http://typophile.com/node/53099?page=3#comment-322052

Down with Zionists. Down with Taliban. Long Live Hamas.

Saad Abulhab's picture

Throughout history, criminals have never admitted their atrocities and crimes against humanity except when it is late. There are those criminals who do the killings and those who cover up for them through silence (like media and press)

I do not like to *discuss* crimes against humanities and atrocities since there is NOTHING to discuss, I only condemn these acts REGARDLESS, and like to remind the criminals that they shall never win, and their place eventually will be in history's garbage. This is exactly how Michael Heart felt. Listen to his song about Gaza along with pictures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHy1T-tao9w

http://www.tropismes.org/post/462

-Saad

William Berkson's picture

Saad, do you also condemn Hamas using women and children as human shields, as they are now doing in the current war?

Do you also condemn the continuation of rocket attacks against Israel even after it left Gaza?

I'm afraid that at the root of this 60 year war is, as I recently read, that the Palestinian nationalist movement most of the time has been much more interested in destroying Israel than in building up its own people. If Hamas were truly interested in the welfare of people in Gaza, they would not have provoked a suicidal war.

Aziz, your view that every violent act against Israel is a win, no matter the human suffering on both sides, reminds me of the Zealots in the Jewish wars. They thought the same way about killing Romans, and the result was the death of something like half the Jewish population and a 2000 year exile. Your view of the value of violence in my opinion is the height of self-destructive folly, as was the view of the Jewish Zealots in the first century.

The sooner Muslim Arabs accept the reality of the state of Israel--and very many do--and resolve to cooperate for the benefit of Arab and Jew alike, the sooner the middle east will be peaceful and prosperous.

david h's picture

> Can you see that a Palestinian’s life is not any less valuable than an Israeli’s?

Nina,

Good question.

A speech by Fathi Hammad, Hamas, Al-Aqsa TV, 2008:

The enemies of Allah do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its methods of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Lebanon -- LBC TV, 2009; Lebanese journalists May Chidiac & ‘Uqab Saqr:

Chidiac: Are our children worth less than [Israeli] children?
Saqr: The question is why their blood is worth more than ours, and the answer, to be frank, is that they value human life more than we do. We have no respect for human life in our society – you see this in our jails, in the crimes we commit against one another. Look back a little, and see what happened between Fatah and Hamas. The Israeli newspapers wrote that there were massacres, and some Fatah members fled to Israel for fear of Hamas.

------------
Hamas Attacks Against Fatah Kill 14 and Add to Gaza Chaos
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/world/middleeast/16gaza.html?_r=1

------------

CIVILIANS PAYING PRICE
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLB264011

Fatma, a Gaza resident, said by telephone.....:
"People are in a state of shock and carry a lot of hatred for Hamas," she said. "Civilians are dying. My house was bombed, why wasn't (Hamas leader) Ismail Haniyeh's house bombed?"

--------------

Gaza Strip attack on Fatah loyalists by Hamas gunmen kills 11

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4454082.ece

....Shadi Hilles, a 22-year-old former member of the Fatah security forces in Gaza, said that he wanted to stay in Israel and would be arrested and beaten by Hamas if he was forced to return. “I don't know what will happen. If I go back they are sure to get me,” he told The Times, lying with a foot wound in an Israeli hospital in Ashqelon.....

-------------------

Edit:
Bill, I didn't see your post.

Good questions:
Saad, do you also condemn Hamas using women and children as human shields, as they are now doing in the current war?

Do you also condemn the continuation of rocket attacks against Israel even after it left Gaza?

------------------

Saad Abulhab's picture

William Berkson wrote:

>>The sooner Muslim Arabs accept the reality of the state of Israel

I personally accept fully the reality of the people of Israel and their human needs and rights to live in Palestine, but just as the black people of South Africa had never accepted the reality of South Africa under Apartheid system, I personally would NEVER accept the reality of Israel under Zionist system.

The Israeli people must reverse the crimes of there past and present leaders and accept living in Palestine/Israel with ALL the Palestinian people, in peace.

-Saad

Typedog's picture

timd

Sorry comrade, I am free to express my feelings anyway possible.
Long live California and Texas!

gohebrew

I hardly think Mexico wants AzizMostafa , what would the Mexican Jews say!

AzizMostafa

die happily and gain martyrdom----> Sound's like the words Hamas feeds its human bombs. Well Aziz at least we agree on Down with Taliban.

typerror's picture

You guys seem to believe this will be solved in a chat room... There is not a smiley emoticon big enough to express the humour of that assumption!

Back to type, right Hrant?

Michael

aluminum's picture

You guys seem to believe this will be solved.

;o)

Typedog's picture

Never, and your right back to type

William Berkson's picture

Michael, I am not so naive as to think we are going to solving anything here. This is an unusual opportunity for me, at least, to discuss the issue with people around the world. I find it very interesting, if depressing. Of course the situation is still more depressing.

Saad, are you saying that any Jewish state is illegitimate, and that there should be no peace between the Palestinians and Israel, but only wiping out of the Jewish state?

I concede that there has been injustice and cruelty of Israel against the Palestinians. Are you prepared to concede that there has been Palestinian cruelty and injustice against the Jews?

You analogy to South Africa is wrong, because Israel has had a majority Jewish population ever since the Arab countries failed to wipe it out in 1948. Two generations have passed, and it is time to create a peace that reflect the current reality of two peoples on separate lands.

timd's picture

>Sorry comrade, I am free to express my feelings anyway possible.
Long live California and Texas!

Citizen Typedog,
I appreciate the irony, hope you can.

As for solving it, I refer you to my first contribution. However, like William, I value the variety and foci of the contributions.

Tim

typerror's picture

You are better off finishing your long awaited Caslon, William : )

Michael

AzizMostafa's picture

William, there is no pointing repeating the same questions+answers:
http://typophile.com/node/30209?page=1#comment-175307

Israel was founded on lies. Non-Arab Jews were sent with arms to take over
the land by the British by attacking Muslims as All are witnessing today.
And the rest of the Jews were cheated to leave their homes to the Promised land?!
Jews were not immigrants but invaders. Two generations have passed,
and it is time to leave. Israel does not fit in the Arab Jigsaw.
Back to type: how many immigrant Jews can speak+write Arabic today?!

Saad Abulhab's picture

Dear William Berkson

I understand and appreciate your curiosity, but I am not interested in political debates, or in use of propaganda slogans.

The Palestinian problem and facts are well documented from the first day the British army occupied Palestine in 1917 and opened its doors *illegally and criminally* to European settlers despite the will of its inhabitants (90 % Muslims and Christians). Millions of Palestinian refugees (Muslims and Christians)) still carry the keys to their homes that they were terrorized to leave behind. Israel acting as an Apartheid Regime (Jimmy Carter's words) shall NEVER live in peace.

Period!

-Saad

Typedog's picture

timd

Agreed

david h's picture

About Hamas, Around the World:

Arabs turn against 'megalomaniac' Hamas
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24860529-15084,00.html

Responsibility for the war in Gaza, and for the Palestinian fatalities there, was placed squarely on Hamas by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.
"We called the leaders of Hamas and told them, 'Please, do not end the truce'," he said. [1] Hamas ended a six-month truce with Israel two weeks before the Israeli attack.
An Abbas aide, Nimr Hammad, termed the rocket fire into Israel reckless. "The one responsible for the massacre is Hamas," he said. "Hamas should not have given the Israelis a pretext." [2]
Bassam Abu-Sumayyah, a columnist for the daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, accused Hamas of megalomania and said it had acted without even a little bit of political and security sense. It had behaved like a superpower. [3]

[1]. when he was in Egypt

[2]. quoted from the paper in Lebanon Al-Akhbar (http://www.al-akhbar.com/): "The one responsible for the massacres is Hamas, and not the Zionist entity, which in its own view reacted to the firing of Palestinian missiles. Hamas needs to stop treating the blood of Palestinians lightly. They should not give the Israelis a pretext."

[3]. quoted from the paper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (The new life, the official paper of the Palestinian National Authority; http://www.alhayat-j.com/): "They should have had even a little bit of political and security sense, and not left the people wandering, and losing their way, getting killed and injured. It is clear that Hamas was struck by megalomania since they took over Gaza, which blinded them so they would not listen to any advice. Hamas behaved like a superpower, as if they have weapons and means like Hizbullah in Lebanon..."

------------------

Asharq Al-Awsat:The Arab Vote Against Hamas
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=2&id=14879

-----------------

Muslims Against Hamas
Israel isn't the only side to blame
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154855613269959.html

-----------------

Typedog's picture

AzizMostafa

Give it up and find something else to do stop being so ignorant.

Guerrizmo+Design

AzizMostafa's picture

> Give it up and find something else to do stop being so ignorant.

At your service, I have:
1. given up.
2. found something else.
http://vho.org/Intro/GB/Flyer.html
3. felt sorry for being so ignorant
______________________________________
Flowers to VHO

William Berkson's picture

>British army occupied Palestine in 1917 and opened its doors *illegally and criminally* to European settlers

That's not what I read. What I read is that with very rare exceptions, the Jews who moved into Palestine bought land properly and legally. They also brought European knowledge and skills that enabled them to develop the economy, so that there was large Arab immigration into and near where the Jews have settled.

Sitting here in America, and knowing my family's history for the last century, I just don't see why the Arab population couldn't have been tolerant and cooperative if they wanted to be. For the past 25 years, I have lived in a cluster of about 50 townhouses, and my next door neighbor, with whom I share a common wall, is Egyptian and Muslim. We've never had any problems and it would be unthinkable and criminal if anyone were to harm his property or family, although he's the only Muslim in a majority Christian neighborhood. And I think others would have the same view if some in the majority culture would come and try to expel me, a Jew, from my house.

Now I don't deny that there are intolerant people in the US. In the early 20th century there was a lot of anti-semitism. And now, with the huge Hispanic immigration, there are some who are equally intolerant. But I glad to say that the voices of tolerance have generally prevailed.

What I read went on is that people like Amin Al-Husseini whipped up fear and hatred of the Jews for their own interests. And, as I said they against their wishes help create a separate Jewish state because Jews felt that otherwise they would be attacked--as they had been in riots led by Al-Husseini.

I am very familiar with this tactic of demagoguery. I have seen it done by US Southern demagogues like George Wallace, who whipped up anti-black feeling for their own gain. And recently to my sorrow George W. Bush got re-elected by whipping up fear of radical Islam.

If you don't want to participate, I understand, but know that there is certainly not agreement in the West on your version of the history. If you have references in English I can read, from actual scholars, I'd be interested in the other side of the history.

As to keeping the keys to your houses, like it or not, the Jews have in effect been keeping the keys for 2000 years, reciting every year at Passover 'next year in Jerusalem'. And they kept alive the Hebrew language, which is the native Caananite language, and not Arabic, which was not spoken in those lands until the Arab conquest. The Jewish claim of connection to the land of Israel is very real and historical.

Aziz, your holocaust denial is grotesque, ugly, and absurd. I know from personal family stories, and a survivor of Auschwitz who is a friend today, as well as from libraries of histories, that it was all too real.

Saad Abulhab's picture

Dear William Berkson

>>That’s not what I read. What I read is that with very rare exceptions, the Jews who moved into Palestine bought land properly and legally.

Many did, but then used acquired lands as military bases to to steel more lands illegally.

>>Sitting here in America, and knowing my family’s history for the last century, I just don’t see why the Arab population couldn’t have been tolerant and cooperative if they wanted to be.

The Arab population was very tolerant and only revolted after settlers started talking about a "Jewish Homeland". If Egyptian emigrants in your town start talking and acting violently to create an "Egyptian state" where you would not allowed to live in or would be treated as a second class citizen, you would do the same.

>>As to keeping the keys to your houses, like it or not, the Jews have in effect been keeping the keys for 2000 years, reciting every year at Passover ’next year in Jerusalem’.

Jews according to both bibles did not come to an empty land when they crossed the Sinai desert. Eventually they became one of the groups living in that land along with many others. But if they do feel that they belong there and have kept Jerusalem in their hearts for 2000 years, I really respect that and wish that they all come in to live SIDE BY SIDE ALL people in Palestine and neighboring lands. The Jewish religion teachings never included displacing and killing the non Jewish populations of Palestine. After all, having all Jews of the world (20 Millions) living next to their cousins the Arabs (200 millions) can only benefit both.

-Saad

AzizMostafa's picture

> ... my next door neighbor... is Egyptian and Muslim.

What is the difference between A+B?
__________________________A__________________________
Thousands out of Millions oppressed Egyptian Muslims carefully-filtered out
by US-immigration just to escape Zionist-backed Mobarak+live peacefully in US.
In one word: Legal immigrants accepted+governed by US-Rules.
__________________________B__________________________
Thousands non-Arab Jews armed by Zionists sent to kill thousands of Palestinians, imprison thousands and corner the rest of them into 10% of their land?
In 1 word: Illegal immigrants sent+backed by Zionists to take over+rule.
__________________________C__________________________
1. Did the no-Arab Jews apply for migration to Palestine?
2. Were they sent to live peacefully or to take over the land?
... by hook or by crook?
3. Will the Zionists allow the Muslims to rule US?
__________________________D__________________________
The Zionist Crimes in Gaza are beyond description.
They are cursed+condemned world-wide save by Zionists of course.

typerror's picture

Walk away William. Caslon is calling : )

Michael

William Berkson's picture

I hear you Michael :)

James Arboghast's picture

Thanks and kudos to everone who participated in this discussion. Now that the Gaza conflict is over we are seeing the extent of destruction and the human toll.

As the Prussian military genius Karl von Klausewitz observed, War is an extension of politics. Perhaps if the politics at work in the Gaza strip can be resolved, even by a small amount, future violent physical extensions of those politics won't be so harsh and destructive.

j a m e s

AzizMostafa's picture

To view all pages as a single page, click:
http://typophile.com/node/53099?from=0&comments_per_page=5000
Flowers to all Peace-loving Typophiles

aszszelp's picture

@gohebrew

I' started reading this thread, but after about two dozens of your comments filled with hatred I ceasted to continue. However, I'd like to give you just a minor detail to think about.

You claim consistently to put it bluntly, that killing anyone, who could (not *will*, *could*) ever harm you, before they can, is the ultimate strategy, which you attribute "your peoples" success to.

You also write:
"In an ideal world, we can turn another cheek, like Jesus taught, and Gandhi practiced.

But we live in a cruel world. Therefore, the Jewish Bible teaches us to be realistic. There are Bin Ladens and Hamas hypocrites. It teaches to destroy the enemy before they destroy us."

Well, we all _do_ agree that we live in a less than perfect world, notwithstanding, explain me pleas:
How come then, that there are more than a billion Indians now, thanks to the politics of Ghandi. How come, there are more than a billion Christians now following the teachings of Jesus, and how come there are barely a handful of million Jews, besieged in Israel and hated in wide parts of the world?

Just think of it. And rethink your position, whether it is _kindness_ or it is _vengence_ that leads to peace and prosperity.

Also I'd like to point your attention to your use of "goy", "goyim" in your text. Using this word instead of standard English 'non-Jew(s)' as it would be appropriate in this discussion equals to use the (German) term 'Jud' instead of jew(s) in the very same text. I believe we all agree this would be very rude. Further using the quotation marks as you did implies a derogative intonation if it was used in speech, as it is often used by nationalistic and zionistic Israelis. (Goy/im per se is said not to be offensive in Ivrit context, unless it is indicated to be so by derogatory intonation).

You really should reflect on yourself.

aszszelp's picture

@James:

Sorry, I started reading the thread from the beginning, and posted when I was halfway through it. I only noticed now, that you de-facto closed this thread. Sorry for opening it again. I no way wanted to be a grave-digger. (Actually, it must have been your closing post that brought it up in the Tracker again, making me read it).

Just disregard my previous message, no need to go on.

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