Straight from Israel: Raphael's Comments & Others too

gohebrew's picture

Can the kamatz katan, meteg, and shva-na be automatically inserted by a "smart" OpenType font?

David and Raphael say not. Israel says yes. John Hudson thinks maybe. William just thinks. :) Davis starting to think yes, too.

Is there any different between a kamatz katan, a chataf kamatz, and a chataf kamatz katan?

Raphael says no. Israel says yes. Prof. Dotan wonders. David didn't comment.

Join the fun, and express your opinion. Loser buys lunch. (watch out, I'm hungry)

gohebrew's picture

Raphael: Yes, but that is my point. With the furtive patach, you can encode it (if people actually want it is another question), but I still don’t see how you are going to even encode the kamatz katan. Even with our siddur we have made editorial decisions as to what is a kamatz katan or not based on various sources and changed our minds. How are you going to allow a person what to do?

I always cite the easy example of the Hebrew word for afternoon which the first kamatz is katan according to sefardim and gadol according to ashkenazim (and that’s an easy one). You have yet to address this problem.

gohebrew: I would make all the different forms of kamataz katan. People can chose which glyph they want.

Chocalate for chocalate lovers; vanilla for vanilla lovers; and even strawberry for those daring type.

If a GSUB routine can be written whereby ordinary kamatzes will be selectively replaced with one form of kataz katan, then so it shall be.

I then make three nearly identical versions of the font, each with a different default. If you pay extra, you get chocalate. If you pay extra, you get vanilla.

About kamatz katan for Ashkenazim, I was told by Israel-based kollel Hemdat HaAretz (the halachic decider for the OU) that even for them it is an issue, just not in recognizable pronunciation.

I think they mean on how it impacts the shva-na.

raphaelfreeman's picture

You are going to need more than 3 flavours of ice-cream.

Hemdat HaAretz is NOT the halachic decider for the OU. Please please please check such facts first.

Anyway, I'll tell you what. Try it. Create a font that does what you want and see if you succeed. If you do, you are right, if not, I am. :-)

raphaelfreeman's picture

BTW, slightly off-topic but I get to show off. The new Koren Siddur is going to be launched at the OU convention next week in Jerusalem. I have used a kamatz katan, shva na, furtive patach and meteg throughout and it uses the new digitised Koren font for the Kriyot with perfectly automatically font-encoded taamey mikra for the leyning at the back.

The ARCs come back from the printers tomorrow.

gohebrew's picture

I am almost very sure that I went to ou.com, filled out an ask the rabbi form. Later http://eretzhemdah.org/qna.asp?PageId=3 sent me a reply on OU's behalf.

gohebrew's picture

Yes, I confirmed it. It's their kollel of wise scholars.

http://www.ou.org/torah/rebbe

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gohebrew's picture

> I have used a kamatz katan, shva na, furtive patach and meteg throughout and it uses the new digitised Koren font for the Kriyot with perfectly automatically font-encoded taamey mikra for the leyning at the back.

Please post a few words with a kamatz katan, shva na, furtive patach and meteg.

Please post three verses of "perfectly automatically font-encoded taamey mikra for the leyning" for inspection.

But first wait for me to get out my loop.

raphaelfreeman's picture

Not going to go into the structure of the OU. I think it's off-topic.

How would you deal with the word צָהֱרָיִם?

how would you like me to post the taamey mikra?

raphaelfreeman's picture

Here is a page of the leyning demonstrating taamey mikra for an earlier draft:

http://tinyurl.com/5kexx4

david h's picture

> Is there any different between a kamatz katan, a chataf kamatz, and a chataf kamatz katan?

> Raphael says no. Israel says yes. Prof. Dotan wonders. David didn’t comment.

Raphael is right. About Prof. Dotan -- I Doubt It! You didn't understand him.

> Can the kamatz katan, meteg, and shva-na be automatically inserted by a “smart” OpenType font?

You can NOT do that till you'll solve ( I don't know how) the whole Halakha thing. Here's something new: The Yemenite tradition.

Deuteronomy 1:3

Shay La'mora -- sheva Na!

Yemenite chumash -- sheva Nach!


Deuteronomy 32:6

Dotan:

Shay Lamorah (and see the note):

Yemenite:

david h's picture

EDIT: not Deuteronomy 1:3; Deuteronomy 1:27

david h's picture

Raphael,

> Here is a page of the leyning demonstrating taamey mikra for an earlier draft:

I didn't see your link... :)

I see the sheva na; any text from the Bible is with cantillation?

raphaelfreeman's picture

No. Just the readings at the back of the siddur and the three paragraphs of the Shema.

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

Did you see the publisher Shay Lemorah's Chumash with the shvana marked.

This is from Vayikra - Lev.

raphaelfreeman's picture

my critique:
1. putting a football over a Hebrew letter isn't very typographically aesthetic imho
2. the chirik under the first lamed is too far to the firght.
3. the shva doesn't sit correctly under the resh.
4. The kadma over the nun needs to move to the left.
5. the mercha under the chaf is too far to the right.
6. The lower nikud in general are too close to the letters.
7. the lower taamim have been lowered for some reason. It looks odd to me.
8. The font needs to be kerned a little better. The vav and nun need to be closer together for example.

not exactly what I would call good typography, but that's just my opinion...

gohebrew's picture

My intention was not to show you an example of good typography.

You are a very good typesetter, sensitive to the nuances in the example.

I simply pointed out to you a grammatical issue: placement of a shvana symbol in Biblical text.

Although the SLM typesetter was lacking, the custom font used has the nikkudot at the hieght of three levels, then the group of lower taamim at the middle horizontal height and finally the meteg starts from the lowest vertical height.

Does Koren use this three leveled system?

raphaelfreeman's picture

absolutely not.

Firstly, I don't understand why the meteg is different from the other taamim.

Secondly the position of the taamim in Koren is according to each taam but in principle it's not lower from the nikud and I am confused as to why to employ such a system.

The taamim are tertiary to the nikud and therefore they are often designed to be lighter than the nikud as in Koren, but why should they go off the baseline?

Sorry for being confused. I thought this was a typography forum not a grammar forum. I apologise for thinking that's why you posted it here.

But then again, I'm still confused, why are you showing this awful bit of typesetting on such a forum?

gohebrew's picture

Tyography forum - what made you think that?

We share recipees about making good techina here.

(I make the very best techina- it's olive juice that's my secret, shh, don't tell anyone! Ask Natanyahu, he had some.)

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

So you hold that there are only nikkudot, which do not include metteg, and taamim, which do include metteg.

Though the function of metteg with nikudot is different than metteg with taamim.

Athough the metteg's graphical form is the same, their grammatical function differs.

You also think that Shai Lemora's symbol for shvana looks like a football.
Do you think Kehot's small asterish looks like a hotdog, or is OK?
Does ArtScroll's rafe-like horizontal line look like a pickle? Sometimes over a vov or even a gimmel it is wider than them, like a deflated blimp.
Do you really think bolding and/or enlargening the shva is better? At least, it only looks like an overweight shva.

david h's picture

Israel,

> Athough the metteg’s graphical form is the same, their grammatical function differs.

Yes (there's a thread... somewhere..... with sample from Kehot)

> looks like a hotdog, or is OK?

It's OK if the hotdog is Hebrew National.

gohebrew's picture

Chassidim do not eat HN.

Is HN O-U?

When I was a kid, HN had no kosher supervision, except for the word "kosher" in Hebrew.

Even when I was a teen. Twenties. Then, I became Chassidic.

I heard HN is now O-U.

raphaelfreeman's picture

personally I think the asterisk is also very tacky but not as tacky as a football.

Artscroll's use of a rafe is better although of course incorrect since a rafe has a different meaning, but personally that doesn't bother me. The problem with the rafe is that it gets in the way of taamey mikra.

Making the shva larger is pretty ugly, however it became popular after making the kamatz katan larger too. It works graphically much better than a football or an asterisk.

If there are no taamim, then a rafe also works graphically because a horizontal line fits with the letters (eg a patach).

Regarding the meteg. There is no meteg in nikud. However, traditionally just as Artscroll "incorrectly" use a rafe to indicate a shva na, the meteg was used "incorrectly" to indicate a mileil.

It's like Rinat Yisrael who use an ole to indicate a mileil on commonly mispronounced words or a zarka for milra. It doesn't turn the taamim into nikud!

Also you don't address the bizarre vertical placement of the taamim.

gohebrew's picture

I think the use of a rafe horizontal bar is not proper, because letters have different widths, from narrow to wide.

If the rafe bar is one size fits all, over narrow letters its too wide, and over wide letters its too narrow.

Using a round symbol like an asterisk is suitable for different widths.

Your rejecting the Kehot asterisk or Shay Kemora's "football" ib favor of ArtScroll's rafe symbol, or the over emphasized extra bold shva is simply an issue of taam verayach - personal preference, with no logic. I like it this way; I don't like it the other way.

Such lack of logic and reason is not convincing at all.

For example, the elongated kamatz katan is hardly similar in bold emplasis like the highlighted shva. Are you a graphic artist?

The one is weighted like the other nikkud, but shaped differently. The other is very very differently that any other nikkud, and draws way too much attention to itself.

The small asterisk doesn't fraw any extra attention. Furthermore, according to the Minchat Shai's definition of shvana, it never occurs when there is a upper taam in its place. I checked.

Now, this seems to imply that there is a relationship between thr tules of shvana and the taamim, even though we don't know what is yet.

I think Rabbi Shmuel Yehuda Winefeld of Shay Lemora chose the football=like asterisk inside a circle to distinguish his Minchat Shai-based shvana symbol from Kehot's Rav Henna (Hanau)'s asterisk shvana symbol.

So, in conclusion, ArtScroll's rafe symbol is illogical while Kehot's asterisk symbol is not.

In my view as a professional graphic artist, there is nothing wrong with the current depiction of the kamatz katan.

Regarding the meteg's widespread usage in non-taamim text, "go fight city hall" if you think that it will change. It ain't gonna happen.

raphaelfreeman's picture

I think the use of a rafe horizontal bar is not proper, because letters have different widths, from narrow to wide.

If the rafe bar is one size fits all, over narrow letters its too wide, and over wide letters its too narrow.

Using a round symbol like an asterisk is suitable for different widths.

okay, I see your logic, but then again, do you make the patach longer or shorter depending on the letter?


Your rejecting the Kehot asterisk or Shay Kemora’s “football” ib favor of ArtScroll’s rafe symbol, or the over emphasized extra bold shva is simply an issue of taam verayach - personal preference, with no logic. I like it this way; I don’t like it the other way.

Such lack of logic and reason is not convincing at all.

I gave my opinion. I gave my logic. Why is my logic lacking. You don't have to agree. That's okay. But I would point out that most siddurim that I've seen in Israel that mark the shva na do so by making it larger thus kind of creating a standard. The asterisk is normally used to indicate a note and therefore I find it somewhat disturbing in it's position. The football is just daft.

For example, the elongated kamatz katan is hardly similar in bold emplasis like the highlighted shva. Are you a graphic artist?

Isn't it? I think it is. Are you a typographer? typesetter? doctor? lawyer? I'm confused. Your thoughts are all over the place and I don't understand what you are saying.

The one is weighted like the other nikkud, but shaped differently. The other is very very differently that any other nikkud, and draws way too much attention to itself.

Huh? which one is what? Which one draws too much attention? please clarify this point because I think this is interesting.

The small asterisk doesn’t fraw any extra attention. Furthermore, according to the Minchat Shai’s definition of shvana, it never occurs when there is a upper taam in its place. I checked.

Doesn't it? Who says? I personally find it extremely distracting. It's a personal thing.

Now, this seems to imply that there is a relationship between thr tules of shvana and the taamim, even though we don’t know what is yet.

huh? Again I'm lost. To what are you referring?

I think Rabbi Shmuel Yehuda Winefeld of Shay Lemora chose the football=like asterisk inside a circle to distinguish his Minchat Shai-based shvana symbol from Kehot’s Rav Henna (Hanau)’s asterisk shvana symbol.

why? if the asterisk was so good, why create yet another symbol? Did Chabad copyright the asterisk?

So, in conclusion, ArtScroll’s rafe symbol is illogical while Kehot’s asterisk symbol is not.

Hey, I got 100% in logic at University and I'm completely failing to see the logic of yours. Both symbols have other purposes. The asterisk is probably more well-known than that of the rafe. Also the rafe is actually a taam whereas the asterisk has no basis in Bible typography. I think according to that logic, the rafe is far superior choice than that of an asterisk. But that's just my logic.

In my view as a professional graphic artist, there is nothing wrong with the current depiction of the kamatz katan.

Thank G-d. I will inform typesetters all over the world that we have Scott's approval on the symbol that has been used now in hundreds of thousands of siddur world-wide for over 50 years. People will be so relieved.

Regarding the meteg’s widespread usage in non-taamim text, “go fight city hall” if you think that it will change. It ain’t gonna happen.

Huh? What are you talking about. I have no objection to the meteg being used at all. I had it added to the new Koren Siddur that I produced. I think it's an excellent way of indicated mileil. Why would I "fight city hall".

I just pointed out that it isn't a nikud. The same way that the zarka and ole that is used by Rinat Yisrael are not nikud either. They are taamey mikra. They are used "incorrectly" in both instances, but who cares. They solve a problem very nicely.

david h's picture

1. Meteg & Modern Hebrew -- Dictionary: Milel

2. Meteg & Modern Hebrew -- Grammar books (this one is Milra):

And That's It! No poems, novels, magazines....!!!

3. > Furthermore, according to the Minchat Shai’s definition of shvana, it never occurs when there is a upper taam in its place. I checked.

Where's that definition? page?
Shay La'morah -- Numbers 21:


gohebrew's picture

David,

What are you saying here?

>>> Furthermore, according to the Minchat Shai’s definition of shvana, it never occurs when there is a upper taam in its place. I checked.

> Where’s that definition? page?
> Shay La’morah — Numbers 21:

Your examples support this. They of appear above and below other letters in the verb, but NOT NEVER, NO NO NEVER, above the same letter with an upper taam!

david h's picture

Israel,

I'm saying:

> but NOT NEVER...
1. double negative is positive

> above the same letter with an upper taam!
2. every week or two you're changing your questions. now is "above the same letter". well, not just sheva but also chataf (with lower or upper taam); because they can't "hold","carry" the melody. but this is 100% pure cantillation grammar, and no point to talk about that right now.

3 .> according to the Minchat Shai’s definition of shvana
again, where’s that definition? page?

4. the football thing
Winefeld is from Jerusalem; and Jerusalem is yellow; you know...Uri Malmilian, Dani Noyman... :^)

gohebrew's picture

David,

I only appear to be saying:

1. Poetic license: not be taken literally. (I was quoting Shirley Temple. Anyway, it's not "no never" but: "no, no, never" - it's a triple nagative: still negative!)

2. hmmm. From day one, I'm suggesting this ("A shvana symbol never occus above a letter that has an upper taam", never!).
Currently, I'm weak in "cantillation grammar" and its melody. But, watch out, David.

3. Evidence is from Shay Lemora's relatively recent chumash, which R' Winefeld suggesats is based upon Minchat Shai's rules.

4. Only Winefeld is Chassidic, and wears a yellow frock coat on the Sabbath; he's yellow (and never served in the IDF, those chassidim. The others were in the IDF; they're not yellow.

But they all eat 'yerushalmi kugel' - sweet baked spaghetti cakes, even if its not the Sabbath. Just becuz it's yummy!

Have you ever tasted some? Bet ya can't eat one!

gohebrew's picture

David,

From studying patterns, I noticed that whenever the second letter was a shva, following a hei hayedi'ah, a hei with a patach, then the shva of the second letter was always na and not nach.

In your two examples, you see that too.

I posted other examples.

I am certain that there is a different grammatical rule that these examples fall under.

But, remember, David, I am seeking to define context based rules. At first, Prof. Dotan got emotional, and insisted that this was impossible. Then, he though out it for a long time, and concluded it was possible.

When I asked R' Rabin in Toronto, he though long and hard about this, and concluded that it would take a lot of "sorting out", but it was in deed possible. But according Rav Henna (Hanau), it was most difficult, but was also possible.

I think the key lies in old Kehot prayerbook which provides over a thousand examples of Rav Henna's system, and Shay Lemora's books which provides over a thousand examples of Minchat Shai's system.

Where would I best read and analyze the significance of the seguence of the nikkud, and how one nikkud which precedes another nikkud 'influences' it. Where is the inter-relationship of different nikkud discussed?

In a different type of thought, we see that each taam has a dual function in (a) cantillation grammar and (b) melody. Where is it discussed the interelationship between these two factors and each kind of taam?

And where is each kind of taam appearing together with each kind of nikkud discussed?

raphaelfreeman's picture

Okay, let's just say, just for fun, that it was possible to encode it into a font. So you spend 100s of hours researching it (you must have spent that easily on these forums), you spend 100s if not 1000s of hours programming into a font.

Now tell me, after all that R&D how much you going to sell the font for? $50? $5,000? Just curious to know if you've thought this through to the business side. I certainly wouln't spend all that money on a typeface. It would cheaper for me to hire a proofreader...

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

I'm a BT. If I thought only practical 'bout things, like money, I'd be in California some place, with more money to "piss off", and a few girl friends to... um.... hmmm.

But at age 22 or 23, I changed, and became a Chabadnik.

I gave up a scholarship at Spertus College (they thought I'd be the next Elie Wiesel), a gifted sports car, and a stipend to go out with girls every week. Plus I'd be invited for Shabbat every week by a dozen Conservatives. All they wanted in return to stay from those "stinky Lubavs".

Pretty good deal, huh?

But, I must have been really dumb. I picked those "stinky Lubavs". I ended going to yeshiva for years, getting married, having 8 kids, and the grandkids keep popping out...

I learned type design after a rav told me to stay away from safrut (because of my being left-handed, with strength in my right).

Now, I graduated to master OpenType thanks to Diane Collier and John Hudson. With a little more help from my friends (Rabbi Rabin, Prof. Dotan, David Hanuel, and others), I'll get this shvana, kamatz katan, meteg stuff mastered too (G-d made these things to figure out and master)...

Money is not my motivation.

A person needs money to live. But living is not for money. It's only to make a living.

My goal is restore Jewish understanding of this grammar stuff to where it was before there were maskilim, and Jewish people began to lose knowledge of it, like today when 99.9% don't know the grammar of their own language.

I will spend less than a 1,000 hours researching it, and less than a hundred hours programming it. OpenType/Volt is brain intersive, not heavy in time consumtion - that's why I think you made a big mistake picking Tvika.)

My goal anyway is to earn money not from this mainly, but from other ventures, as seen as www.gotalmud.org and www.gohebrew.com.

[Btw, "harbs" disappointed me a great deal. You made him out to be really great, but he seems at best run of the mill - I would not buy anything from PrintIsrael. I see that www.fontworld.com is a much better source. Nothing Harbs claimed could be substantiated. Also, Kesofsky knows of your work and talents, and respects you highly.]

raphaelfreeman's picture

Re making money. Okay. Cool in fact. Not sure if creating a grammar-correct font will increase understanding but I don't know if that's important.

Re Tzvika. Why was he a mistake. He drew Koren perfectly. The font is stunning on screen and even more so when printed. Tzvika didn't program it in Volt, he just drew the font. I have my own programmer for the programming.

Re Harbs. Sorry it didn't work out for you. He has been absolutely invaluable to my work and has given hundreds of hours of help to me as well as the few scripts that I've commissioned from him to make our Siddur and Tanakh projects work. He has come through for me time and time again.

Re Fontworld. Great. I'm glad you have a source that works for you.

Re Kesofsky. Thanks for the compliment. May I ask who he is?

david h's picture

Israel,

> From studying patterns,

I'm studying patterns; end of the week my quilt is ready.

> 3. Evidence is from Shay Lemora’s

Evidence? are you writing a novel of mystery? CSI?

4 months -- soon 5 -- and the subject is the same: sheva; you have one book and a half -- Seow + Chomsky; and you want to "restore Jewish understanding of this grammar stuff... when 99.9% don’t know the grammar of their own language." ?
By the time that you're done with the vowels (1 vowel = 5 months) I'm going to write 7 books.

gohebrew's picture

David,

> I’m going to write 7 books.

Where can I get them? BandN.com? half.com? Amazon...

> Shay Lemora

I refuse to a part of your making fun of R' S.Y.W. He's a fellow Lubavtcher. Have respect. Btw, are you his age?

> end of the week my quilt is ready

Ready? Where it's going? I thought in California, they banned quilts when Reagan was governor.

Where in sunny Calif. are you? Smoggy LA, or foggy SF, or Apple Cupertino? I grew up in Santa Barbara when it was really an old fashioned town. Had Split Pea soup in Buelton before I saw a piece of pork winking at me.

Did you know pig tail's will go counter-clockwise after moshiach arrives?

John Hudson's picture

Raphael: putting a football over a Hebrew letter isn’t very typographically aesthetic

Goal!

gohebrew's picture

Does Winefeld's football have pig skin? Maybe, someone should tell him that it's not kosher.

Well, if it has the Rabinute hechsher maybe it's kosher. Just for Rav Landau, it's not kosher.

raphaelfreeman's picture

er, not to be too pedantic, but the only prohibition when it comes to pigs is eating them... nothing wrong with a pig-skin football.

gohebrew's picture

did you see my pig-skin shoes, suit, or piggy pets?

they're so cute. how could you eat 'em?

oink-oink.

did you hear the news? rabbi raphael saves rabbi winefeld's pig-skin football?

"it's kosher, i say" declares raphael. "i don't care what those heredim say."

yes, raphael takes on benei brak.

"10% off every koren bible, if you shout out loud on rabbi akiva street that pig-skin footballs are kosher. yes, they are."

great marketing trick, raphael.

raphaelfreeman's picture

I'm confused. Why are you being so rude to me. Was I rude to you?

gohebrew's picture

I'm sorry. I did not think I was being rude. I only respect you, and value your comments, though I disagree with some.

I believe if placement of shvana, kamatz katan, and maybe even meteg, is automatic, then there is hope that knowledge and use of it will increase a lot.

Do I lme my cool if David makes fun of me. No. So, don't over-sensitive.

After what happened in India, people should feel hurt by others, or feel like getting upset at somebody else.

We have enough enemies.

raphaelfreeman's picture

I believe if placement of shvana, kamatz katan, and maybe even meteg, is automatic, then there is hope that knowledge and use of it will increase a lot.

We just launched the new Koren Siddur at the OU convention. It was very interesting. There must have 200-300 men on shul on shabbat. A lot of black hats. A lot of Rabbis from America.

You know what? Despite the fact that they were using a siddur which had a shva na and a meteg (I'm ignoring the kamatz katan because this crowd didn't do Israeli pronunciation), the ba'aley tfilla who were a combination of prominent Rabbis and Chazanim still managed to mispronounce every word. Even the ba'al koreh was awful and not a single person corrected him.

All the siddurim put in a meteg, Artscroll has a very prominent line and some siddurim have footballs, yet nobody notices. I just wonder if literally millions of siddurim mark this already (some for over 100 years) but this has had no impact on the supposedly knowledgeable public...

William Berkson's picture

Just out of curiousity, Raphael, how were they "mispronouncing" the prayers? I put that in quotes because according to the essay by William Chomsky on the shva that came up in these discussions, it is very questionable whether the "correct pronunciation" was ever correct. He says that historically the current views on the correct places to pronounce the shva have their origin in the views of David Kimchi, also known as RaDaK. But if I read him rightly--and I am a novice at this--these were conjectural attempts to make sense of the Tiberian system of nikkud, and are of doubtful value.

He says that within living memory both Ashkenazi and Sfaradi speakers of Hebrew have followed much simpler spoken rules. These have been: 1. Pronounce a shva if it is under a prepositional prefix or a conjunctive vav. 2. Pronounce it if it is under the first letter, and the first letter is a 'liquid consonant'--yod, mem, nun, lamed, and resh. 3. It is the second of two successive shvas. (I suppose the rule about two successive letters, eg hallelujah, applies also.)

So, for example in k'tana and g'dola (little and big, feminine) the shva at the beginning is a shva nach, contrary to the 'right' rules which say that it is sounded.

So if ignoring the supposed 'right' rules for the shva na is all they are doing 'wrong' my feeling is: "if this is wrong, I don't wanna be right", to paraphrase a country song.

gohebrew's picture

Raphael,

Although the OU has ascended in broad respectabilty among heredim in the USA, the ignorance about even basic issues is still widespread, evcen among those dress like heredim.

This only proofs the desperate need to increase awareness and educate.

I believe an automatic feature will increase awareness and educate. A teacher simply applies GHB FrankReuhl A to show before, and then GHB FrankReuhl B for after. Then, he or she explains the difference.

I believe in a generation or two, things will improve.

raphaelfreeman's picture

Aha! you assume that the teacher will teach this? Okay, let's go with that. How does programming this into a font going to translate to a Cheder Teacher a) using the font, b) understanding that it exists in the font and c) teach this?

Also, regarding the "fact" that a taam never falls on a shva na. Well the tlisha ktana, being a prepositive taam will fall on it regularly whenever you have a word which starts with a shva. Also you will face collision problems in many faces with a lamed shva combination.

gohebrew's picture

The last place is the heredim cheder.

my guess is that reform conservative and christian bible schools are first.
then after a few years, progressive orthodox schools will come around.
the heredim will be last, if ever.

***

about the tlisha ktana, as you say, no shay lmora shvana symbol collided. please quote one place.

if it does, it's easy to program a gpos for thatcombination, if it really exists.

gohebrew's picture

many people think half empty.
it'll never work.
very neative.

i think half full.
it might work.
very positive.

get it?

raphaelfreeman's picture

Re collisions. Okay. Just thought about it off the top of my head.

Re empty. Okay. It might. Not arguing that. Still don't get the point of it, but that's just me :-)

david h's picture

@ Telishah: This is Telishah Gedolah and not Ketanah.

When the stress is on the first syllable, you're going to see only one telishah (short words-- two letters); when the stress is on the second syllable (red arrow), then a second telishah gedolah is above the accented letter. However, this is an aid; to help the reader;
there's always a second telisha with any word with sheva na, or chataf; that said, sheva na, or chataf can't "hold" the melody.

@ Shay La'morah: we said million times -- Weinfeld does not mark every sheva na!

raphaelfreeman's picture

Oops. you are quite right. Of course I meant tlisha gdola. I was very tired when I wrote that.

gohebrew's picture

Most everybody places a graphic symbol over a shvana in the middle of a word. Hardly nobody these days marks the first letter which has a shva.

The issue of collision ONLY pertains to a shvana in the middle of a word.

Please, David, cite a single example. Just one.

18 million dollars in a golden poot. Yes, it could be yours. Or mie. Who gets it? Mr. Money Bags wants to know. Plus I'll pizza (he he).

gohebrew's picture

Raphael, you could be in on the bet, too. But I'm hungry.

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