Hardys: a new custom typeface.

kris's picture

Kia ora folks,

I've just finished a custom typeface for the Hardys wine range, owned by Constellation Wines Australia. You might be interested to see it, it's quite different to what I normally draw & what's currently fashionable. Your thoughts are welcome, as always!

—K

ebensorkin's picture

Kent, Agreed. But Bill, If you want to create that thread please feel free.

Miss Tiffany's picture

Yeah. I know. Sorry to be such a stick in the mud.

Stefan Seifert's picture

Hi William!

I am at work – so briefly.
I do like and share for myself (although I explain it in my theories in other words) the state that was made about the visual center. Think this hits the point. One of my most important words is rhythm. A thing that in the most digital faces is inexistent - to say it a bit provocative - because of the kerning work. I think a brillant typeface has to be designed in a way that it needs not to be kerned at all, at least in my eyes. It can work with a visual center.

Hear you
Stefan

Stefan Seifert's picture

PS

Than there is also another point I find important. That is the fact that for example in storic typefaces like Jensons the outlines of the letters aren’t so smooth. They offer the other letters points to attach themselves so that the rhythm is carried on more easily. Jensons spaces aren’t too perfect (and they are wide for todays opinion) but they work perfect! Nobody will dare to kern Jensons letters. I at least won’t.

salute
Stefan

k.l.'s picture

Stefan Seifert, wrong thread. Spacing discussion to be continued here.
And no, starting a new thread was not a good idea.  ;-)

William Berkson's picture

>And no, starting a new thread was not a good idea. ;-)

In general, I am all for continuing a thread even with change of topic. Typophile is like the Talmud--a record of discussions--in that many of the most interesting discussions have little or nothing to do with the original topic. That is fine with me.

However, in this case, this thread was mainly about honoring Kris's work. I felt badly about introducing a sour note, but I felt that the issue I raised was important enough to raise anyway. But I didn't want to go on too long about it.

Stefan, I think Kindersley would probably agree with you. In his scheme, all caps setting should ideally be 'tracked' widely enough that the R can get its full ideal advance width and spacing. If it has to be tighter, then it is just tracked closer, everything else should be kept the same, and it is better to overlap RA and KA, etc, rather than spacing them wider than the rest. But I think, contra Kindersley, it is questionable whether the best spacing stays the same at all tracking numbers.

Stefan Seifert's picture

Hi William,

though it is not recommended ;-) (Sorry Kris - your work sure is great!)
here another picture I made yesterday about spacing and ryhtm...

William Berkson's picture

Stephan, I continued the discussion of design and spacing here.

I don't understand what you are trying to show in your diagrams, which look interesting. Could you explain them?

dezcom's picture

Kris has made one sweet figure 8 in Hardy's! Love the transitions into the abreviated serifs, too.

ChrisL

William Berkson's picture

>Kris has made one sweet figure 8 in Hardy’s

Yes, there are a lot of details I love too. My favorite is the dynamic acute accent.

Looking again at the word "Sauvingon," maybe what disturbed me also is the tight kerning of the S to the a. I am finding now as I am kerning that caps look better when they stand off a bit from the lower case characters. They, being broader, want a little bit more space than the lower case letters, so the kerning needs to be a compromise between lc and upper case spacing. By now, Kris has more experience at this than I, but that's how it looks to me. (The C in Cuvee looks too tight to me also.)

dezcom's picture

"I am finding now as I am kerning that caps look better when they stand off a bit from the lower case characters. They, being broader, want a little bit more space than the lower case letters,"

That can be true with smaller x-height fonts or with caps that are much bolder than lower case but not so true in other cases. I think Kris has hit it spot on with Hardy's.

ChrisL

William Berkson's picture

>That can be true with smaller x-height fonts or with caps that are much bolder than lower case but not so true in other cases.

I'm sure you're right that this has an impact.

I've looked in Mac McGrew's American Metal Typefaces and saw these Latins:

So now I'm seeing something I think similar to what inspired Kris, and I'm getting a better picture. I don't like these 'Latins' either, as to me the proportions are ungainly, including the wide a. Kris's rendering of the style is a big improvement on these to my eyes. But I just don't like the style.

So this may be part of my own antipathy to a lot of Victorian styles. With a lot of exceptions I tend to feel: 18th century--good. 19th Century--bad. 20th century first half--good. 20th century second half, pre-digital--not so good.

dezcom's picture

I guess we will need another thread for that discussion since Kris's thread is in danger of being hijacked a 3rd time.

ChrisL

William Berkson's picture

>hijacked

Arrrgh matey, me be Pirate Bill, rough and tough I be :)

eeblet's picture

Here's one more post continuing the lovefest for this typeface! I wish I could buy it now.... My eye is maybe 2% as keen as, say, Kent's, but given how much I've enjoyed working with Feijoa, I trust Kris' craftmanship a whole lot.

(And Kris, Scream Sorbet will be making a Feijoa flavor when they come into season again in Northern Cali. None of our customers will get the nerdy thrill that I do, but hey.)

---
eeblet.com

kentlew's picture

Bill, matey, you might want a different appellation than that P-word ;-) Aargh.

Sorry I never got back to those samples. Looks like you dug up your own. I was reluctant to derail the thread, but since the damage has already been done and you've already gone there, here is the Stephenson Blake Lining Booklet face that I was referring to. Another example of the genre.

I can understand your dislike. Victorian-era styles are an acquired taste. I didn't used to like this sort of Latin thing. Now I find them fascinating.

-- Kent.

William Berkson's picture

>Now I find them fascinating.

Victoriana-R virus--highly infectious and dangerous.

symptoms: In the male, initial symptoms include the sufferer declaring that portraits of the young Queen are 'hot'.

Design afflictions follow, involving curls :)

concrete's picture

@Kris: "it’s quite different to what I normally draw & what’s currently fashionable." Kris I think you are setting the fashion.

what is with the private party above???

Stefan Seifert's picture

Guess thats what the ‘V’ is for ;-)

Stefan

Stefan Seifert's picture

Hi William,

I tried to show with my pictures effects that letters show if they were looked upon with an out of focus. It becomes clearer what is meant by the optical ‘center’ of a letter. Or a thing that I call ryhtm. If the ‘a’ in the example (its design intuitively decentered to the right as we all do it day by day) is put out of focusand then used a filter that interpolates the remaining colour other forms come to the surface like these elliptical ones on the second picture. In theory the fields A an B have to have the same amount of blackness.
Second we see the optical center of the new curves pushed to the right almost simmetrical to the center line. So when we slightly may close our eyes over a text this is what has to remain as rythm giving parts. But I see its too much explaining for a thing that has to be done in design by intuition..
But I found it curious to see nevertheless.
Finally we have to be aware that when we design our curves we design also these hidden ones as well, don’t we?

Ciao William
see you in some other thread!

Stefan

kentlew's picture

Bill -- LOL. But I don't think curls are in the offing ;-)

Miss Tiffany's picture

@Kent: That is LOVELY!!

William Berkson's picture

>That is LOVELY!!

It does look much better than the ones I found in Mac McGrew. It is interesting that this more monoline version seems to work better with the stretched letter forms.

Now that I think of it, a lot of Marian Bantje's stuff, which I adore, also uses monoline curls...

AndrewSipe's picture

One question Kris, how much wine are you getting out of this deal?

dezcom's picture

I hope Kris is getting a golden key to the whole vinyard out of the deal for his fine piece of work.

ChrisL

kentlew's picture

Bill --

Here's the ATF version of the Latin Antique. Not much different from the BB&S version, but this showing looks a little nicer to me than the McGrew sample, and does the style a little more justice.

William Berkson's picture

That ATF version is better, but but the lower case still looks awkward to me.

I think that your earlier posted Lining Booklet face pulls it off better. Somehow the way the curl on the "a" makes the counter on the top of the a smaller, so it visually fits better, in spite of being over-wide. Similarly, the top of the "e" has the side arches pulled in, making it look narrower on top, and visually fit better. I still feel the Lining Booklet has problems, but the way the curls are handled generally give the face a jolly mood, without being saccharine, and that is distinctive and nice.

But I wouldn't be surprised if there are other faces from that era, such as the silent film title faces, which have the curls with a similar mood, but more well proportioned, and work better.

William Berkson's picture

Minah is a contemporary face with curls that somehow echoes the early 20th century feeling, but still looks contemporary and really charming.

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