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Ellipsis style
Posted by black currant in
20 Feb 2008 — 8:23am
20 Feb 2008 — 8:23am
Hello All,
I work at a magazine and we're discussing our use of the ellipsis. Currently, we use period, full space, period, etc. and I find it makes me crazy. There's just way too much space. I suggested using period, thin space, period, etc. but a friend told me I should just use the glyph since that's what it's there for.
What type of ellipsis are people using these days?
Thanks!
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8 May 2010 — 6:02am
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8 May 2010 — 7:24am
I hope you guys don't mind me reviving this interesting oldie, but I have to add that it seems quite US-centric. To add an international perspective: Putting spaces of any kind into the 3 dot sequence is not commonly done over here – I would say not in continental Europe, but at least not in Switzerland. Perhaps as a consequence, the unspaced "..." sequence does not usually seem too tight to me.
So there is a cultural aspect to this, and one interesting thing that follows is that ellipses in American-designed fonts often seem looser to me than the ones in European fonts, and sometimes distractingly loose. When designing for an international market these regional differences might be interesting to consider.
15 Jan 2012 — 5:10am
Can anyone confirm that there was no “ellipsis character” before the advent of DTP as mentioned in one of the posts above? I saw what appears to be three dots on one key at a linotype keyboard (see http://www.flickr.com/photos/atoach/5944029870/, bottom right) -- but cannot say if that key is really for typing an ellipsis character (it has a different shape than the other keys).
16 Jan 2012 — 6:05am
First of all, I don’t think that’s a Linotype keyboard. Looks more like Monotype, and (as someone already pointed out there) it has a Monotype label.
Secondly, I believe that key is for a three-dot leader. If you look at the same position in the left hand compartment, below the period, you’ll also see a two-dot leader.
I suppose a three-dot leader (presumably three-to-em) could have been used in place of an ellipsis — I don’t know if that was common practice in Monotype composition or not. If so, then I suppose I’ll have to stand corrected.
18 Jan 2012 — 3:13pm
Kent, thanks for the idea with the dot leader (and for being with me helping revive “this interesting oldie”, as Nina put it above [back in 2010!]). Somewhere I came across this already, but I did not see its significance then. Maybe part of the aversion against using the ellipsis character is connected with the wideness of an em-wide dot leader that had been used on Monotype machines to avoid manual spacing (and several keystrokes). This makes sense, also when comparing different printed matter from the late 19th and early 20th century, where books with Monotype mentioned in the imprint do feature exceptionally wide ellipsis marks. I have yet to check that again, but wanted to share that possible connection between dot leaders and ellipses – or, rather, this confusion in the representation of two different functions.
2 Mar 2012 — 2:48am
Has anyone thought of using the text from spam forum posts as a source of lorem ipsum?
2 Mar 2012 — 4:15am
Cool idea for a typeface specimen actually. :)
13 Nov 2012 — 7:41pm
Speak of the devil, and, after a pregnant pause, he shall appear.
14 Nov 2012 — 2:57pm
I'm seriously considering an ellipsis with only 2 periods..
14 Nov 2012 — 4:17pm
Why, are you expecting another period soon?
14 Nov 2012 — 5:04pm
I just don't see the point in the third one.
14 Nov 2012 — 5:49pm
You need to distinguish between font design and writing system design.
hhp
14 Nov 2012 — 8:19pm
Oh, so it wasn't menopause, Ryan?
15 Nov 2012 — 4:08am
Well, now that the big spam post has been deleted, my previous comment doesn't make sense anymore.
15 Nov 2012 — 7:26am
Which is worse?
15 Nov 2012 — 1:45pm
Writing systems are not set in stone, or steel, or brass, or binary code.
15 Nov 2012 — 1:51pm
No, that would just be silly.
15 Nov 2012 — 2:12pm
Ryan, I'm a big fan of reforming writing systems (see my Alphabet Reform work). But you can't just remove a dot from an ellipsis in a font and think you're doing type design; you have to think deeply about strategy at the level of the writing system, and then make fonts based on such a foundation.
hhp
15 Nov 2012 — 3:13pm
Your method allows no innovation, Hrant. In a world where everyone abbreviates everything, and where they consistently uses new combinations of old symbols (smileys) to express themselves, shortening an ellipsis from 3 periods to 2 strikes me as not only unradical, but inevitable.
15 Nov 2012 — 3:35pm
I love innovation, but it either has to be subtle enough to escape conscious rejection, or it has to be in-your-face. And most of all -like I said- it has to be on the correct level (writing system versus font).
hhp
15 Nov 2012 — 4:16pm
My 2 period ellipsis is both subtle and in your face.
To the average person it is subtle. To the average type designer, it is in your face.
15 Nov 2012 — 5:18pm
In casual writing like emails and text messages, most folks use a series of periods to create an ellipsis, and the number of periods will vary depending on their mood and how fast they're typing. So I don't think using 2 instead of 3 would even be noticed.
In printed pieces, one problem with a 2-period ellipsis is that it may just look like a typo, a double period.
15 Nov 2012 — 5:35pm
Yup, two is not enough.
hhp
15 Nov 2012 — 5:47pm
What is so tough about using 3 periods? What is gained by only using 2?
16 Nov 2012 — 2:33am
How long until someone decides to repurpose the Unicode two-dot leader as a brand-spanking new two-dot ellipsis?
16 Nov 2012 — 5:53pm
Ryan: Your two-stop ellipsis is a fine abbreviation. As an abbreviation, however, it needs to be followed by a period.
- Herb
16 Nov 2012 — 5:56pm
ha ha! God catch, HVB!
17 Nov 2012 — 8:20am
Have any of you made a face that uses opentype substitutions to replace three periods in a row with an ellipsis?
24 Nov 2012 — 3:55am
Speaking of two-dot ellipses, that is not a completely new idea.
German poet Stefan George used that at the turn to the 20th century to distinguish his way of keeping his verse open in a more “closed” way, famously mocked by Theodor W. Adorno in his essay “Satzzeichen”.
A digitised version of the font George had made in order to keep his poetry in line with his stylized “handwriting”, and including a two-dot ellipsis, is available from the Institut für Textkritik, Heidelberg (and another one, with serious flaws, from IHOF/P22, for a discussion of said flaws, see my critique [German]) .