Hello,
I'm looking for some help with a dissertation I'm doing on the design of the road sign. If anybody has any info on books, websites, articles, etc. that might be of use to me, please throw them in here.
Thanks.
Have you looked at the MUTCD? (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices) its a mega tomb and not very modern but it does describe what is currently in place on the Federal Roadscape. Don Meeker, my partner in the Clearview project has developed a proportional grid design system he is currently trying to get the Feds to adopt. I know the system is very modular and basically sends a good portion of the MUTCD to the waste bin.
There may be some useful information on our Clearview web site:
Thanks for all the replys.
To be more specific, I'm looking at :
-the history of the road sign-where the designs came from,
-the road signs in Ireland-European and Irish rules and regulations regarding the road sign,
-Readability and legibility of the signs-how they're affected by speed, size, positioning, colours, etc.
-Problems for road users
-Technological developments that coould help to communicate with the road user
Thanks again for all the replys. I'll have to get to reading them all now. If anyone has anything else to offer throw it in.
Have a root around for Jock Kinnear & The Worboys committee for information on the implementation of British Road signs. I'm at work at the moment so can't help you much more but there are some articles in my bibliography that may help you.
I don't know what else can be said about ClearviewHwy. Articles on it have appeared in Print, Creative Review, Wired, The New York Times, The New York Times Sunday Magazine, among others. But if you think there is more to say, I can be reached a jm at terminaldesign dot com.
The name of the typeface in long-term use on the U.S roadscape is Standard Highway Alphabet Series B, C, D, E, and EModified. Series B and C are for regulatory and street name signs. Series D for secondary roads E Modified for Limited Access Highways. Series E has fallen out of wide use. Highway Gothic is a name that is sometimes used for these fonts.
On a somewhat related topic, is anyone aware of objective published research that supports the idea that letters with tall x-heights, large counters and wide apertures are easier to read than smaller counters? I’m looking for articles other than the articles about Clearview, and for writing that is specific to type, as opposed to articles about psychology/cognition that can be interpreted for type.
This is an important part of my thesis, which I will post more about this weekend. Anyway, one of the judges I presented to today pointed out that these features, which typographers today have a tendency to treat as established fact, might very well be just a bunch of BS, in the same way that the notion of Helvetica and Univers being neutral didn’t really hold up after Swiss design dissipated.
"... is anyone aware of objective published research that supports the idea that letters with tall x-heights, large counters and wide apertures are easier to read than smaller counters"
Not I. But the statement you make is but a subset of "the idea", dangerously cartooned in my opinion, in a way that can easily lead to brain freeze. The size of everything matters relative to the expected use of a type design for a given tone of voice...the typographic world around you should seem at least locally objective "published" proof...no?
"...might very well be just a bunch of BS..."
You planning to print anything for this judge? ah kin halp ;-)
the typographic world around you should seem at least locally objective “published” proof...no?
But that’s the problem—just looking around us and drawing conclusions provides us with anecdotal support, there’s a big difference between that and the way the Clearview team produced signs, tested them on a track, and published the results. The audience for my thesis work is organizational leaders—the sort of people who would be a lot more receptive to a designer’s anecdotes if they’re backed up by “science.”
You planning to print anything for this judge? ah kin halp ;-)
Oh, the things I am planning to do for this project… I’ll put up a big post about my thesis work soon, because I need better feedback than the suggestions I got. I’m pretty sure the Typophile crowd can do better than ”What about drawing some italics” or ”Get Matthew Carter to mentor you!”
James, my impression is that the state of research on what fonts are most readable is very shaky, However, the research done on Clearview seems to be some of the best, in that it is solid and not BS.
It is limited in applicability, though. The tests were for maximizing legibility for a certain number of words on certain sizes of sign. And the emphasis was on what works at night, with lights shining on the words, which are reflective, with cars speeding toward the signs. And they were comparing existing fonts to specifically proposed new ones. From what I read, their results seem pretty solid for their limited brief.
Generalizing beyond this to what is readable in text on paper or on screen is problematic, but I don't think the researchers attempted any such generalization or made any claims about it.
There are a lot of problems with research in this area, but you can be too cynical too.
"From what I read, their results seem pretty solid for their limited brief."
You are joking right? "cars speeding toward the signs" where? The tests I read only included truckers and trucks.:)
"comparing existing fonts to specifically proposed new ones" where? the test I read only included old sign vs. new sign. :)
"Have you looked at the MUTCD?" did you James, study this document thoroughly before making the CV fonts?
"...my partner in the Clearview project has developed a proportional grid design system he is currently trying to get the Feds to adopt."
This was done first in the Highway Gothic development, as a thinking typeman would expect. ;)
"...the system is very modular and basically sends a good portion of the MUTCD to the waste bin."
lol, What I think James is trying to say, is that the MUTCD included important guides for the modular use of Highway Gothic. Lacking such a document, Clearview can hardly live up to its name. The next interesting question, is "will having such a document beg changes to the fonts"...:)
David, you have a good point that they were testing specific signs, and if the spacing is messed up enough on others, it might affect the results.
What I found convincing is their conclusion that Clearview, with its medium weight and larger, more open counters is more legible under night conditions--with halation--than the heavier weight and more closed counters of the original highway gothic series E modified that they were comparing it to.
"I’m looking for articles other than the articles about Clearview, and for writing that is specific to type, as opposed to articles about psychology/cognition that can be interpreted for type."
Hi James, what is the difference between studies about type and studies about psychology? The authors of the Clearview research were psychologists.
Hi James, what is the difference between studies about type and studies about psychology?
Writings that aren’t specific to type but can apply to type would end up requiring too much explanation within the context of my work. I am working on an undergraduate thesis with a very limited written component, so I need to keep things unambiguous, short, direct and not open myself up to arguments along the lines of “…you’re a design student, what the hell do you know about applying cognitive psychology research to letters?”
"Is this study about type or about psychology?"
You take 10 people (10), put their chins in a cup, slam them into a 147 dpi screen and ask them to identify typefaces that have not been evened out to present the same size l.c. ...I think you get sqaut. Can Commerce be an answer?
The signage on the moterway etc are in a certain font. In the UK, they are in (is it Helvetica or Gillsans?) They are in that certain typeface for a reason. Clarity and no fuss. So when you are speeding past,t he information is taken in our brains at such a speed, we are able to decode it and read it. We would not be able to if it was in a script font. Alot of angry drivers on the roads i would assume. Also look at connotations and colour connotations. Red means love, passion but also blood, agression and many other things. So colour psychology is required too to decode a message i.e. a symbol or sign.
I'm mainly looking at motorway signage. Transport or Transport Heavy is used in the UK, is it not? According to the article by Phil Baines in Eye that James pointed out to me, the choice of colour for the motorway signage was 'In part an aesthetic choice, in part it was suggested by the use of reflective materials and their costs...The blue chosen was the American Standard Interstate Blue Colour, which stood out from the countryside as well as giving good contrast to the whiter type.'
Would I be correct in saying that the following are used in each country;
Germany DIN 1451
Switzerland Frutiger
United Kingdoom Transport
Ireland Transport
Sweden Tratex
United States FHWA Series
Anyone have info on other countries? Is Transport used in Australia, New Zealand and other places?
25 Oct 2007 — 1:26pm
Didn't read it but very usefull information. At least to start the search:
Visual Function: An Introduction to Information Design
By Paul Mijksenaar
See it at
http://books.google.com/books?id=-j7JcB2al7sC&pg=PP1&ots=7zkuczWIME&dq=Visual+Function:+An+Introduction+to+Information+Design&sig=naIYHnWqIrb_2dcW2tf8pwM630A#PPA26,M1
António
25 Oct 2007 — 2:01pm
Massive topic...can you be more specific?
25 Oct 2007 — 2:03pm
As far as font legibilty etc is concerned...
http://typophile.com/node/14300
25 Oct 2007 — 2:15pm
Bit more history here.
25 Oct 2007 — 2:21pm
There's always Wikipedia.
Sorry these are very British. James M has got to be your man in the States.
25 Oct 2007 — 3:26pm
Have you looked at the MUTCD? (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices) its a mega tomb and not very modern but it does describe what is currently in place on the Federal Roadscape. Don Meeker, my partner in the Clearview project has developed a proportional grid design system he is currently trying to get the Feds to adopt. I know the system is very modular and basically sends a good portion of the MUTCD to the waste bin.
There may be some useful information on our Clearview web site:
http://www.clearviewhwy.com
25 Oct 2007 — 3:46pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_sign
Ireland has a Traffic Signs Manual, but I can't find the complete manual online in a quick search. A new Chapter 8 is here.
The UK:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/publicationoftrafficsignsma....
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/trafficsigns.pdf
http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol8
The Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals; a PDF version is here, but may be out of date; a Wikipedia article.
These are specific to the United States:
Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD)
Standard Highway Signs
MUTCD publications
MUTCD home page
25 Oct 2007 — 9:35pm
I recently asked a similar question and got plenty of great responses, have a look.
26 Oct 2007 — 5:46am
Thanks for all the replys.
To be more specific, I'm looking at :
-the history of the road sign-where the designs came from,
-the road signs in Ireland-European and Irish rules and regulations regarding the road sign,
-Readability and legibility of the signs-how they're affected by speed, size, positioning, colours, etc.
-Problems for road users
-Technological developments that coould help to communicate with the road user
Thanks again for all the replys. I'll have to get to reading them all now. If anyone has anything else to offer throw it in.
26 Oct 2007 — 11:29am
its a mega tomb
That's pretty grave, James.
26 Oct 2007 — 2:03pm
OK so its a mega tome. But it still should be buried in a mega tomb
30 Oct 2007 — 11:15am
Anybody have any more recommendations for books, articles, or websites I should look at? Thanks for all the help.
31 Oct 2007 — 12:29am
Ole Lund
‘The public debate on Jock Kinneir’s road sign alphabet’
in:
Typography papers 5, 2003
pp 103-126
http://www.rdg.ac.uk/typography/home.html?publications/typo_papers/index...
2 Nov 2007 — 5:00am
I recently completed a dissertation on Street name signs in England... looked into legibility etc as part of this... have a look at http://www.richard-small.co.uk/projects/dissertation/ for the full document.
Have a root around for Jock Kinnear & The Worboys committee for information on the implementation of British Road signs. I'm at work at the moment so can't help you much more but there are some articles in my bibliography that may help you.
good luck
Rich
5 Nov 2007 — 6:34am
Cheers for that Rich. I'll have a read of that alright. I might be able to get that article in one of the college librarys, thanks Wolfgang.
9 Nov 2007 — 2:41am
James Montalbano-I'm going to be writing a piece about ClearviewHwy. Can I get in contact with you if I have some questions?
11 Nov 2007 — 7:28am
I don't know what else can be said about ClearviewHwy. Articles on it have appeared in Print, Creative Review, Wired, The New York Times, The New York Times Sunday Magazine, among others. But if you think there is more to say, I can be reached a jm at terminaldesign dot com.
13 Nov 2007 — 8:16am
Is the typeface currently in use on most American Highway signs FHWA Series E Modified? Is Highway Gothic a different name for the same typefaces?
13 Nov 2007 — 2:16pm
The name of the typeface in long-term use on the U.S roadscape is Standard Highway Alphabet Series B, C, D, E, and EModified. Series B and C are for regulatory and street name signs. Series D for secondary roads E Modified for Limited Access Highways. Series E has fallen out of wide use. Highway Gothic is a name that is sometimes used for these fonts.
14 Nov 2007 — 8:55pm
On a somewhat related topic, is anyone aware of objective published research that supports the idea that letters with tall x-heights, large counters and wide apertures are easier to read than smaller counters? I’m looking for articles other than the articles about Clearview, and for writing that is specific to type, as opposed to articles about psychology/cognition that can be interpreted for type.
This is an important part of my thesis, which I will post more about this weekend. Anyway, one of the judges I presented to today pointed out that these features, which typographers today have a tendency to treat as established fact, might very well be just a bunch of BS, in the same way that the notion of Helvetica and Univers being neutral didn’t really hold up after Swiss design dissipated.
15 Nov 2007 — 6:24am
"... is anyone aware of objective published research that supports the idea that letters with tall x-heights, large counters and wide apertures are easier to read than smaller counters"
Not I. But the statement you make is but a subset of "the idea", dangerously cartooned in my opinion, in a way that can easily lead to brain freeze. The size of everything matters relative to the expected use of a type design for a given tone of voice...the typographic world around you should seem at least locally objective "published" proof...no?
"...might very well be just a bunch of BS..."
You planning to print anything for this judge? ah kin halp ;-)
Cheers!
15 Nov 2007 — 10:05am
the typographic world around you should seem at least locally objective “published” proof...no?
But that’s the problem—just looking around us and drawing conclusions provides us with anecdotal support, there’s a big difference between that and the way the Clearview team produced signs, tested them on a track, and published the results. The audience for my thesis work is organizational leaders—the sort of people who would be a lot more receptive to a designer’s anecdotes if they’re backed up by “science.”
You planning to print anything for this judge? ah kin halp ;-)
Oh, the things I am planning to do for this project… I’ll put up a big post about my thesis work soon, because I need better feedback than the suggestions I got. I’m pretty sure the Typophile crowd can do better than ”What about drawing some italics” or ”Get Matthew Carter to mentor you!”
15 Nov 2007 — 10:51am
James, my impression is that the state of research on what fonts are most readable is very shaky, However, the research done on Clearview seems to be some of the best, in that it is solid and not BS.
It is limited in applicability, though. The tests were for maximizing legibility for a certain number of words on certain sizes of sign. And the emphasis was on what works at night, with lights shining on the words, which are reflective, with cars speeding toward the signs. And they were comparing existing fonts to specifically proposed new ones. From what I read, their results seem pretty solid for their limited brief.
Generalizing beyond this to what is readable in text on paper or on screen is problematic, but I don't think the researchers attempted any such generalization or made any claims about it.
There are a lot of problems with research in this area, but you can be too cynical too.
16 Nov 2007 — 6:03am
"From what I read, their results seem pretty solid for their limited brief."
You are joking right? "cars speeding toward the signs" where? The tests I read only included truckers and trucks.:)
"comparing existing fonts to specifically proposed new ones" where? the test I read only included old sign vs. new sign. :)
"Have you looked at the MUTCD?" did you James, study this document thoroughly before making the CV fonts?
"...my partner in the Clearview project has developed a proportional grid design system he is currently trying to get the Feds to adopt."
This was done first in the Highway Gothic development, as a thinking typeman would expect. ;)
"...the system is very modular and basically sends a good portion of the MUTCD to the waste bin."
lol, What I think James is trying to say, is that the MUTCD included important guides for the modular use of Highway Gothic. Lacking such a document, Clearview can hardly live up to its name. The next interesting question, is "will having such a document beg changes to the fonts"...:)
Cheers!
16 Nov 2007 — 10:26am
Look into signs, symbols and icons.
17 Nov 2007 — 3:34pm
David, you have a good point that they were testing specific signs, and if the spacing is messed up enough on others, it might affect the results.
What I found convincing is their conclusion that Clearview, with its medium weight and larger, more open counters is more legible under night conditions--with halation--than the heavier weight and more closed counters of the original highway gothic series E modified that they were comparing it to.
18 Nov 2007 — 5:46am
"...their conclusion that Clearview, with its [agate proportions] is more legible under night conditions..."
Yes, I see that. Once you (they) have led this Push-Me-Pull-You 100 yards down the road, has it really traveled 100 yards? ;)
Cheers!
19 Nov 2007 — 10:24am
"I’m looking for articles other than the articles about Clearview, and for writing that is specific to type, as opposed to articles about psychology/cognition that can be interpreted for type."
Hi James, what is the difference between studies about type and studies about psychology? The authors of the Clearview research were psychologists.
19 Nov 2007 — 10:37am
Hi James, what is the difference between studies about type and studies about psychology?
Writings that aren’t specific to type but can apply to type would end up requiring too much explanation within the context of my work. I am working on an undergraduate thesis with a very limited written component, so I need to keep things unambiguous, short, direct and not open myself up to arguments along the lines of “…you’re a design student, what the hell do you know about applying cognitive psychology research to letters?”
20 Nov 2007 — 7:40am
Is this study about type or about psychology?
http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/92/legibility.htm
Cheers, Kevin
26 Nov 2007 — 5:12am
Anybody know where I can get some information on Jock Kinnear and The Worboys Committee? I haven't been able to find all that much so far.
26 Nov 2007 — 6:49am
eye 34, winter 1999, has an great article about Kinnear, Calvert, and the Worboys committee.
27 Nov 2007 — 4:39am
"Is this study about type or about psychology?"
You take 10 people (10), put their chins in a cup, slam them into a 147 dpi screen and ask them to identify typefaces that have not been evened out to present the same size l.c. ...I think you get sqaut. Can Commerce be an answer?
Cheers!
27 Nov 2007 — 12:13pm
Worboys Committee here.
27 Nov 2007 — 12:16pm
Jock Kinneir and Margaret Calvert here.
27 Nov 2007 — 12:20pm
Article on Designing a system for Britains road signs here.
27 Nov 2007 — 12:34pm
Thanks for those James and Nick. The cbrd.co.uk website seems to be down at the moment but I was looking at it before.
27 Nov 2007 — 2:57pm
The signage on the moterway etc are in a certain font. In the UK, they are in (is it Helvetica or Gillsans?) They are in that certain typeface for a reason. Clarity and no fuss. So when you are speeding past,t he information is taken in our brains at such a speed, we are able to decode it and read it. We would not be able to if it was in a script font. Alot of angry drivers on the roads i would assume. Also look at connotations and colour connotations. Red means love, passion but also blood, agression and many other things. So colour psychology is required too to decode a message i.e. a symbol or sign.
28 Nov 2007 — 10:21am
I'm mainly looking at motorway signage. Transport or Transport Heavy is used in the UK, is it not? According to the article by Phil Baines in Eye that James pointed out to me, the choice of colour for the motorway signage was 'In part an aesthetic choice, in part it was suggested by the use of reflective materials and their costs...The blue chosen was the American Standard Interstate Blue Colour, which stood out from the countryside as well as giving good contrast to the whiter type.'
5 Dec 2007 — 6:45am
Would I be correct in saying that the following are used in each country;
Germany DIN 1451
Switzerland Frutiger
United Kingdoom Transport
Ireland Transport
Sweden Tratex
United States FHWA Series
Anyone have info on other countries? Is Transport used in Australia, New Zealand and other places?
Sorry, just saw this now: http://typophile.com/node/39661
10 Mar 2008 — 12:51pm
Thanks to everyone for all the help. I handed in the thesis. Thanks again.
14 Mar 2008 — 6:08am
Well done! Hope you get a good mark for it.
14 Mar 2008 — 6:44am
You aren’t going to post it for us to read?