Q. I can go to my local Wal-Mart and get 3000 fonts for $19.95. How come your stuff is so pricey?
A: You get what you pay for.
Q: Seriously, what’s the difference?
A: We have a dedicated staff of nine people whose sole purpose is to make fonts and artwork for you. We have families, bills, health insurance, etc. Most of our collections are developed over a period of 18 to 24 months, so we have a huge investment in time and effort in each typeface and each piece of artwork. Come down to the studio some time and we’ll show you.
What does my homepage have to do with anything ? I just nicely asked a question about finding a font that costs a lot of money for something so simple. No need to get all snippy. I’m sorry I tried to get help. It won’t happen again. Jeez. I thought that that was what forums were for. Guess I was wrong.
Think about this. Once bread becomes toast, you can’t make it back into bread.
Perhaps you misunderstand who the members of Typophile are? You do know that most of the type designers and foundries, the people whose jobs are dependant on creative work that “costs a lot of money for something so simple”, some who are barely scraping by because of people like you, are the primary component of Typophile?
Dan - I really appreciate how you put that. The French like to ask people what car they have, and then how about we come over and take it - for nothing. It gets lost in the translation.
Spottedfeather - your simile has very little meaning. So think about this - after you eat your piece of toast — just how are you going to earn money to buy another piece of bread - when everyone is stealing your paycheck?
Yes, $30 is a ridiculous price for a font. It should be more, but the market being what it is, that is probably the price point they feel they can maximize revenue with ... oh, wait ... did you think they spend hundred of hours building and perfecting that font so you could have it for free?
Further, its really a sad state of affairs when an industry has to start splitting its potential clientele into two groups: “thieves” and “not-thieves.” that’s usually an indication that prices are out of control.
Its the same problem the music industry has. Does anyone remember the first time they saw a $22.99 sticker for a music CD and then magically that very same season Napster erupted as a household name and then all the sudden millions of teenagers were “thieves” - it put the industry into a freefall.
Implying that a potential customer is a thief or somehow unscrupulous for asking if he could find a quality product within his budget (notice he didn’t say free, he just said $30 is ludicrous) is NOT good business.
designers of course deserve their due payment for their work, but the font liscencers are a little bit guilty of having a copyright monopoly - such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces. The problem is that they have control of virtually infinite copyrights - that guarantee out of proportion prices and lead to this sort of “sticker shock.”
the music company allowed downloads of single songs for $1 and all of the sudden everyone used itunes! If the type industry let you get unpackaged single fonts for a reasonable price (try $5) i think you’d see instant success. Especially for headline fonts. Who would ever use “Coop-Flaired-super-ultra-black-italic-monospaced” anyway??? - its the same as asking if anyone ever listens to more than the first track of a Wang Chung album. People would still buy the entire family for great fonts like Thesis and Scala. Personally I really don’t want all those other family members junking up my hard drive and slowing my computer down.
The fact that most graphic designers were weaned on Apple’s successful business model of top dollar, take it or leave it, probably influences some of the attitude.
It would be nice if there was a field at the retail sites telling how many hours were put into a font or set (broken down into categories like design, spacing/kerning, testing, etc). Even allowing for efficiency of work, we would then have some sort of guage at how ridiculous a price really is. There is probably a good chance some are even a bargain at $30.
Fontpla - i agree with the gist. I think part of my skepticism comes from the “man-hours” argument tho.
The fact is a font is not just a singular work of art - its also mass liscensed and mass distributed consumer design element, like a tube of paint. In that arena, the “man-hours” argument just doesnt work because its supply and demand - the supply is virtually infinite and the demand is large (as seen in the number of “thieves”. Fonts are NOT “limited edition” and therefore should not be sold at “limited edition” prices.
My argument is that if you package it better, in more managable increments, you’ll sell more and make more money and maybe even have the competition to make better product.
Perception of cheapness is relative. Certain fonts are certainly worth the money based on their merits alone. most are not, when you consider that in the long run, one font goes only so far for a designer. The entire helvetica font family retails for nearly the retail price of Indesign, and that’s just weird to me.
I just think that many times it get wrapped up in what they think a font “should cost” rather than thinking of how a foundry could sell more units and get more good design out there.
heh - I’m more interested in a “IKEA” for fonts than an “itunes” Great design, widely distributed, for less!
DanGayle’s attack is unfounded - don’t blame the customer!
A ballpoint pen is “simple.” with no infrastructure, a ballpoint pen would cost the equivalent of millions of dollars and thousands of manhours to reproduce. Even with the infrastructure, a ton of sweat and and work and design goes into a ballpoint pen. Yet a pen is 99 cents and is incredibly lucrative. With computers, just as many people potentially use fonts today as use pens. In a market economy, a font is in fact “simple.”
A font is like any other type of industrial design. A michael graves toaster from Target can be a legitimately amazing, beautiful piece of design and have all the soul and sweat and artistic achievement in the world, and still be dirt cheap.
The consumer’s expectations aren’t the problem...it’s usually the suppliers’ business model.
Sam, your analogies are false – fonts do not become obsolete, they might go out of fashion or be rarely used but within their intended environments they don’t stop working and if they should they can be reinstalled. You seem to imagine a cartel operates among foundries, but the consumer has a choice that ranges from free to eye-watering and nearly every taste and pocket is catered for.
There may also be a coolness factor that took some marketing to achieve. Marketing takes money.
I remember in the ’70s that the communists would have us believe it was OK to steal anything as long as you muttered “For the people!” while stealing it, which is the logical extention of telling people what they can sell their unique product for, or it will be stolen.
If the product isn’t that unique, then why not use something else?
People have a right to charge what the market will bear. If they are going for an exclusive clientele, they have that right.
There are millions? of font choices, and if you can’t manage to create something nice using a lower costing alternative, than that doesn’t say much for your design ability.
Bottom line, art, in general, is not supported as most artists would like. But if an artist can make a decent living for themselves and maybe employ others too, then rock on!
Tim, Your point is well taken - but i think you’re thinking of a font as an end-product and not as a design resource. A font going out of style is essentially the same as a font going obsolete in an industry based on trends. If a font can’t be used to make money, it is useless. Designers for the most part won’t pay for fonts they don’t intend to use in their business.
Caveat emptor, if one buys a font as part of a trend then one takes that risk and builds the cost into a job or spreads it over several jobs for a client, how long before that font has paid off the cost and is earning (or subsidising less successful speculative purchases)?
Fontpla, you’re absolutely right - and as a designer i agree.
But i also think that much of copyright law is based on shaky logic and is rigged against the normal laws of ’people paying what the market will bear.’ After all “charging whatever we want just because we can” is on its face unethical.
...its really a sad state of affairs when an industry has to start splitting its potential clientele into two groups: “thieves” and “not-thieves.” that’s usually an indication that prices are out of control.
No, it’s not that simple. You make that polarization, not us.
Its the same problem the music industry has.
No it is not.
...the font liscencers are a little bit guilty of having a copyright monopoly - such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces.
Absolute twaddle. We have no “copyright monopoly”. Copyright ’law’ in the U.S practically undermines the very principal of copyright. Font prices are set by supply and demand. The market pays what it thinks fonts are worth—-the price(s) they sell for.
The problem is that they have control of virtually infinite copyrights - that guarantee out of proportion prices and lead to this sort of “sticker shock.”
Nope. It is obvious in the extreme to myself and other type professionals here that you have a very slim grasp of how the font industry really works and how prices are determined. The only “sticker shock” is experienced by unprofessional designers and unprofessional font users whose expectations of price are unrealistic, and unprofessional.
...i think you’d see instant success.
The type industry is quite successful the way things are, thankyou. What makes you think there is a lack of success?
The fact is a font is not just a singular work of art - its also mass liscensed and mass distributed consumer design element, like a tube of paint.
Fonts are not mass-consumed. In the case of commercial fonts they are commercially consumed, but not en masse the way music and films are.
I’m more interested in a “IKEA” for fonts than an “itunes” Great design, widely distributed, for less!
If you think IKEA furniture is great design you need to discover real furniture.
A font is like any other type of industrial design.
No.
It.
Is.
Not.
Fonts are not mass-consumed like toasters and the same market economics do not apply.
In your view fonts are preposterously-priced, but possibly you are forgetting that both large foundries and independents give away at least one high quality font for free, as an incentive to customers. It’s also a nice way of showing that we’re not consumed with making a buck or obsessed with control of our intellectual property.
Going back to the iTunes thing. A buck a track is less than half price from the $22.99 album price (assuming an average of 12 tracks per album). That is a far shorter price cut than going from $30 to $5.
Maybe it is just because I remember when a filmstrip for a Comp II used to cost the same as my weekly salary. And that was one font: bold or italic with regular, but not both. And this would wear out, if not from use over a few years, then through obsolence when the machines were updated every four or five years. I still have PC fonts from 1988.
I think we are getting a good deal for what we pay. People who want free fonts can get them from the free collections. It doesn’t bother me when they have to spend hours cleaning their font lists when some crude freebie crashes Photoshop. My quality fonts will never do that.
woah, didn’t mean to annoy. your points are well taken and i was just being general and defending somebody who was getting harrassed.
Youre right, i don’t have a good knowledge of how well the industry is doing. I’m just making casual observations based on personal experience. I don’t like the way fonts are sold, i’d buy more if it was different.
IKEA is a good design business model. So is target. I’m no snob.
“The only “sticker shock” is experienced by unprofessional designers and unprofessional font users whose expectations of price are unrealistic, and unprofessional.”
I wouldn’t say that. Some fonts are very expensive. Many project are not large budgets. So, sticker shock isn’t that rare of an event.
Not that there’s nothing wrong with selling one’s fonts at a premium.
“If you think IKEA furniture is great design you need to discover real furniture.”
As a piece of commercial design, meeting price points that appeal to the consumer is a major factor of the success of the design.
There seems to be room for premium priced fonts and more mass market fonts. Both can and do seem to exist side by side just fine.
Can one sell more than 10 times the units if they sell a font at $10 rather than $100? I have no idea.
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
C. Attacking an innocent “troller” is both pompous and childish, both signs of insecurity.
Wang Chung have been treated unfairly in this discussion. There are many good Wang Chung songs. Sure, they had a dreck #2 hit in ’86 but “Dance Hall Days” was a solid new-wave classic track (especially the 12 inch) and “Isn’t It About Time We Were on TV” is thought provoking and wobbly. The “Points on the Curve” album was rather piss-poor, mind you. The first couple of albums are a good for more than a few spins.
Better examples: Tommy Tutone, Lipps Inc, Toni Basil, Haysi Fantayzee, Pseudo Echo . . .
such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces.
Don’t expect market forces to work “correctly” under virtual monopolistic circumstances.
If Apple, Adobe and Microsoft didn’t bundle hundreds of fonts for free with their apps, there might be the kind of mass market where indie font manufacturers could reduce prices to a few dollars, because we would be shifting tens of thousands of font licences, rather than hundreds.
However, don’t expect things to remain the same either. It may be possible for reputable independent foundries to develop high volume, low price marketing models, as the industry progresses. After all, as a retail phenomenon, the indie font business only really got started in around 1999, with e-commerce, and is still gathering steam. Note the low price of some impressively stacked Opentype fonts in the Myfonts best-sellers; a lot of value there.
copyright monopoly
That doesn’t have much to do with it (see above).
However, copyright protection is probably a bit too long. William St Clair found that when it was 12-24 years (for literary works), that produced the most dynamic cultural effects (in his book The Reading Nation in the Romantic Period).
With a controlled market and long copyright protection, St Clair found a situation where the dominant businesses produced new material at high prices, allowing them to milk their legacy assets, in various price brackets geared to different levels of purchaser, for long periods of time. I’m not quite sure how that compares with fonts. It’s hard to compare intellectual property for physical and digital products, and I haven’t finished his book yet, let alone tried to figure out how it fully relates to fonts.
You can always tell which people have never designed, or attempted to design a typeface. They are usually the ones who moan and bleat about type being ’too expensive’ and say ’more people would buy it if it were cheaper’.
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
Oh my god! This is a truly ignorant statement! You are one funny dude, Koppa. Luckily this world is can handle more than 10 fine printing ’artists’.
Koppa, are you F**ked in the head? really, I mean come on, that is mental!
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
Oooh, your saying it to get attention... I get it now. Because, really, that is insane.
C. Attacking an innocent “troller” is both pompous and childish
Like your design work, which is atrocious, I mean come on, I’m so sick of bad design and people who are all talk, why can’t you back yourself up? those logos are so BAD! come ON! its so insane that people could even contemplate paying for these... god! I can’t say enough of how bad they are!
Your work is truly like eating at McDonalds... but your comments on type designers are a lot worse.
Nick- you said what i was trying to say in a much better and more precise way.
also, tommy tutone would have been a much better example. The internet so reduces my communication skills.
I certainly don’t downplay how much work it takes to design a font. It takes a huge amount of work to design anything the right way. This isn’t about what fonts should cost. its about what fonts could cost if potential markets were tapped.
All i can say is that design is super-hip right now. Vastly, astoundingly HIP. You just have to teach a certain market segment to care about something that is quite opaque (like where their font folder is hidden on their cute little macbook.)
I definetly agree about the Adobe, Mac, Microsoft monopoly. However, i think the fact that if you google “font” half of what comes up is THOUSANDS OF FREE FONTS!!! FREE FREE FREE!!!! is even worse for business. People want to pay and are dubious of the choice between free and expensive. I think it would be better to convince them to sell their fonts for even the tiniest amount. I’d really like to see a middle ground, a “student grade” so to speak.
Holy cow, have I ever been hammered on my earlier comments. Mostly I’m glad someone called me funny. Okay, to some, my logos suck, and I’m a terrible designer, and I guess that very well could be true...subjectively, anyway. I’m not saying nobody can design a decent type face, I’m sure there are plenty of you out there who can. No...I KNOW there are plenty of people out there who can. All I’m saying is that there are lots of good ones out there already, and with the world going to hell the way it is, maybe sooner or later we (including me) should all concentrate on something else. Is that really so ignorant? But that’s not type talk, and maybe you’re right, maybe I am just an attention getting ego-maniac. I like to think of it as stirring the pot. Peace to you all, honestly.
Wang Chung have been treated unfairly in this discussion. There are many good Wang Chung songs. ...
Ray’s comment from left field on the justification of the Wang Chung example wins.
I do understand that premium fonts often come with premium prices, but it seems more like there isn’t really a mid-level market of typefaces.
I see the font market much like the market for buying sunglasses. You can get the cheap-o $5 sunglasses at any drug store, the $30 sunglasses at a department store, the $120 sunglasses at a boutique, or blow $600 for the custom designer shades at a fancy shop in a world-class city. But what if you want to pay something like $75? The options become much more limited at that mid-level price.
And yet, they’re still just sunglasses - stylish pieces of plastic to protect your eyes from the sun. You could look through the stadium bleachers for a free lost pair if you had the time and patience for such a thing (and the willingness to put up with many a broken pair).
Spottedfeather> As much everyone in this thread thinks they know you, they don’t. WE DON’T KNOW YOUR SITUATION. If $30 (or the $255 you’ll have to pay to actually get Coop Flaired) is too much for you to pay- that’s fine. There are alternatives of similar stylization that might interest you.
Yes these fonts are for-pay, but 12.99 surely beats the 200 plus you have to put out. As for me I would not even spend 2 cents on Coop- its the ugliest thing in the world. That’s me. But House Industries- the foundry- makes a quality product. This means that the metrics (letter spacing), glyph design, hinting (how well it looks on screen) is virtually perfect. And that’ where the higher price come from.
That’s not to say all quality fonts are well priced- Device Fonts (cute but pricey) , Gary Munch’s Really, and everything by Red Rooster is stupidly priced!
But anyway- I hope I have helped you. And don’t listen to the goons in this thread. Typophile can be a great resource- use it to your advantage.
I think there are a few threads on Typophile right now that are moments away from becoming insult-fests. It is ok for someone not to be able to afford a $30 font. I think it is far better that the person is making an effort to rightfully license a font that they can afford rather than trolling with the pirates looking for a copy of Coop to use without proper licensing.
At the end of the day it is what is done with the font that matters not the original cost (or quality) of the font.
Let’s keep it above board and not go around insulting anyone.
Agreed with the recent comment by Miss Tiffany, and crazily this was on my mind last night. I want apologize myself for the comments I made that ruffled a few feathers. I used an exaggerated number for effect, the point being that with the digital age, there are now a LOT of cooks in the kitchen, and while we many of us deserve to be paid like professionals, we cannot demand it, or whine about it when it doesn’t happen. Which is why I work for peanuts within my small rural community (population 4,335), and often give my services away to folks that cannot afford to pay for anything. Please, all, understand that I personally appreciate all of your efforts in making this a more graphically beautiful world.
there’s a hand-full of you whose comments brought our office to loud Hurrahs (as I read aloud this article in particular)
I’d like to add my own comments on this subject:
1) there was a time when my pay-rate was such that it was worth it to my boss to pay for the 10+ hours of font fixing required with free (usually un-tested) fonts. Incidentally I was recently flattered when I was presented with a company credit card specifically for font buying (whooda thunk it) ... I don’t say this to brag (much) only to explain that as far as business models go it matters what’s worth more, time or money. At this point in our firm’s history, so-called “luxury high-priced” fonts are a money now VS money later decision ...
2) the sad truth of the matter is that for every one of US there are forty or so for whom there exists less than a dozen fonts (Arial and TimesNR being the MVP’s)and all the others are considered artsy fluff suitable for kindergarten teachers who want to gussy up their classroom. I get depressed just thinking about it.
3)No one will care as much about a font as it’s creator (save in certain cases where there’s some idol worship involved [helvetica]), but this won’t stop people from pouring their hearts into great design even at the risk of having their work summed up as “such a simple thing”. (personally, going back to the “IKEA” model, if I were to have some fantastic, useful, mass-marketed-high-design artifact that I designed referred to as “such a simple thing” I believe it would be a point of great pride ... but that’s neither here nor there)
that is all ... thank you for bearing with my verbosity
-Pablo
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6.Aug.2007 5.45pm
Where are you finding it for $30 ? It is only available as part of the Typography of Coop package at House Industries.
6.Aug.2007 6.08pm
Here I refer to the House Industries FAQ:
Q. I can go to my local Wal-Mart and get 3000 fonts for $19.95. How come your stuff is so pricey?
A: You get what you pay for.
Q: Seriously, what’s the difference?
A: We have a dedicated staff of nine people whose sole purpose is to make fonts and artwork for you. We have families, bills, health insurance, etc. Most of our collections are developed over a period of 18 to 24 months, so we have a huge investment in time and effort in each typeface and each piece of artwork. Come down to the studio some time and we’ll show you.
6.Aug.2007 6.55pm
Are we actually having this conversation on typophile?
yikes.
6.Aug.2007 6.57pm
Take a look at his home page—I’m pretty sure that this one is just a troll.
6.Aug.2007 10.20pm
What does my homepage have to do with anything ? I just nicely asked a question about finding a font that costs a lot of money for something so simple. No need to get all snippy. I’m sorry I tried to get help. It won’t happen again. Jeez. I thought that that was what forums were for. Guess I was wrong.
Think about this. Once bread becomes toast, you can’t make it back into bread.
7.Aug.2007 1.04am
Perhaps you misunderstand who the members of Typophile are? You do know that most of the type designers and foundries, the people whose jobs are dependant on creative work that “costs a lot of money for something so simple”, some who are barely scraping by because of people like you, are the primary component of Typophile?
7.Aug.2007 5.01am
Dan - I really appreciate how you put that. The French like to ask people what car they have, and then how about we come over and take it - for nothing. It gets lost in the translation.
Spottedfeather - your simile has very little meaning. So think about this - after you eat your piece of toast — just how are you going to earn money to buy another piece of bread - when everyone is stealing your paycheck?
7.Aug.2007 6.43am
Think about this. Once bread becomes toast, you can’t make it back into bread.
But consider: Martha Stewert could probably make a decent bread pudding with it.
7.Aug.2007 8.33am
Yes, $30 is a ridiculous price for a font. It should be more, but the market being what it is, that is probably the price point they feel they can maximize revenue with ... oh, wait ... did you think they spend hundred of hours building and perfecting that font so you could have it for free?
8.Aug.2007 6.58am
Further, its really a sad state of affairs when an industry has to start splitting its potential clientele into two groups: “thieves” and “not-thieves.” that’s usually an indication that prices are out of control.
Its the same problem the music industry has. Does anyone remember the first time they saw a $22.99 sticker for a music CD and then magically that very same season Napster erupted as a household name and then all the sudden millions of teenagers were “thieves” - it put the industry into a freefall.
Implying that a potential customer is a thief or somehow unscrupulous for asking if he could find a quality product within his budget (notice he didn’t say free, he just said $30 is ludicrous) is NOT good business.
8.Aug.2007 8.03am
designers of course deserve their due payment for their work, but the font liscencers are a little bit guilty of having a copyright monopoly - such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces. The problem is that they have control of virtually infinite copyrights - that guarantee out of proportion prices and lead to this sort of “sticker shock.”
8.Aug.2007 8.05am
the music company allowed downloads of single songs for $1 and all of the sudden everyone used itunes! If the type industry let you get unpackaged single fonts for a reasonable price (try $5) i think you’d see instant success. Especially for headline fonts. Who would ever use “Coop-Flaired-super-ultra-black-italic-monospaced” anyway??? - its the same as asking if anyone ever listens to more than the first track of a Wang Chung album. People would still buy the entire family for great fonts like Thesis and Scala. Personally I really don’t want all those other family members junking up my hard drive and slowing my computer down.
8.Aug.2007 8.20am
sorry to be ranty. i edited down my posts to try to be less of a jerk. Also sorry to compare any typeface to Wang Chung. altho that is a good song.
8.Aug.2007 8.20am
The fact that most graphic designers were weaned on Apple’s successful business model of top dollar, take it or leave it, probably influences some of the attitude.
It would be nice if there was a field at the retail sites telling how many hours were put into a font or set (broken down into categories like design, spacing/kerning, testing, etc). Even allowing for efficiency of work, we would then have some sort of guage at how ridiculous a price really is. There is probably a good chance some are even a bargain at $30.
8.Aug.2007 8.28am
Fontpla - i agree with the gist. I think part of my skepticism comes from the “man-hours” argument tho.
The fact is a font is not just a singular work of art - its also mass liscensed and mass distributed consumer design element, like a tube of paint. In that arena, the “man-hours” argument just doesnt work because its supply and demand - the supply is virtually infinite and the demand is large (as seen in the number of “thieves”. Fonts are NOT “limited edition” and therefore should not be sold at “limited edition” prices.
My argument is that if you package it better, in more managable increments, you’ll sell more and make more money and maybe even have the competition to make better product.
8.Aug.2007 8.38am
Interesting idea, Sam...iTunes for fonts.
And I agree, $30 is a crazy price to pay for toast.
Though a $30 font sounds pretty damn cheap.
8.Aug.2007 8.55am
Perception of cheapness is relative. Certain fonts are certainly worth the money based on their merits alone. most are not, when you consider that in the long run, one font goes only so far for a designer. The entire helvetica font family retails for nearly the retail price of Indesign, and that’s just weird to me.
I just think that many times it get wrapped up in what they think a font “should cost” rather than thinking of how a foundry could sell more units and get more good design out there.
heh - I’m more interested in a “IKEA” for fonts than an “itunes” Great design, widely distributed, for less!
8.Aug.2007 9.58am
DanGayle’s attack is unfounded - don’t blame the customer!
A ballpoint pen is “simple.” with no infrastructure, a ballpoint pen would cost the equivalent of millions of dollars and thousands of manhours to reproduce. Even with the infrastructure, a ton of sweat and and work and design goes into a ballpoint pen. Yet a pen is 99 cents and is incredibly lucrative. With computers, just as many people potentially use fonts today as use pens. In a market economy, a font is in fact “simple.”
A font is like any other type of industrial design. A michael graves toaster from Target can be a legitimately amazing, beautiful piece of design and have all the soul and sweat and artistic achievement in the world, and still be dirt cheap.
The consumer’s expectations aren’t the problem...it’s usually the suppliers’ business model.
8.Aug.2007 12.06pm
Sam, your analogies are false – fonts do not become obsolete, they might go out of fashion or be rarely used but within their intended environments they don’t stop working and if they should they can be reinstalled. You seem to imagine a cartel operates among foundries, but the consumer has a choice that ranges from free to eye-watering and nearly every taste and pocket is catered for.
Tim
8.Aug.2007 12.29pm
There may also be a coolness factor that took some marketing to achieve. Marketing takes money.
I remember in the ’70s that the communists would have us believe it was OK to steal anything as long as you muttered “For the people!” while stealing it, which is the logical extention of telling people what they can sell their unique product for, or it will be stolen.
If the product isn’t that unique, then why not use something else?
People have a right to charge what the market will bear. If they are going for an exclusive clientele, they have that right.
There are millions? of font choices, and if you can’t manage to create something nice using a lower costing alternative, than that doesn’t say much for your design ability.
Bottom line, art, in general, is not supported as most artists would like. But if an artist can make a decent living for themselves and maybe employ others too, then rock on!
8.Aug.2007 12.45pm
Tim, Your point is well taken - but i think you’re thinking of a font as an end-product and not as a design resource. A font going out of style is essentially the same as a font going obsolete in an industry based on trends. If a font can’t be used to make money, it is useless. Designers for the most part won’t pay for fonts they don’t intend to use in their business.
8.Aug.2007 1.05pm
Caveat emptor, if one buys a font as part of a trend then one takes that risk and builds the cost into a job or spreads it over several jobs for a client, how long before that font has paid off the cost and is earning (or subsidising less successful speculative purchases)?
Tim
8.Aug.2007 1.25pm
Fontpla, you’re absolutely right - and as a designer i agree.
But i also think that much of copyright law is based on shaky logic and is rigged against the normal laws of ’people paying what the market will bear.’ After all “charging whatever we want just because we can” is on its face unethical.
8.Aug.2007 1.26pm
...its really a sad state of affairs when an industry has to start splitting its potential clientele into two groups: “thieves” and “not-thieves.” that’s usually an indication that prices are out of control.
No, it’s not that simple. You make that polarization, not us.
Its the same problem the music industry has.
No it is not.
...the font liscencers are a little bit guilty of having a copyright monopoly - such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces.
Absolute twaddle. We have no “copyright monopoly”. Copyright ’law’ in the U.S practically undermines the very principal of copyright. Font prices are set by supply and demand. The market pays what it thinks fonts are worth—-the price(s) they sell for.
The problem is that they have control of virtually infinite copyrights - that guarantee out of proportion prices and lead to this sort of “sticker shock.”
Nope. It is obvious in the extreme to myself and other type professionals here that you have a very slim grasp of how the font industry really works and how prices are determined. The only “sticker shock” is experienced by unprofessional designers and unprofessional font users whose expectations of price are unrealistic, and unprofessional.
...i think you’d see instant success.
The type industry is quite successful the way things are, thankyou. What makes you think there is a lack of success?
The fact is a font is not just a singular work of art - its also mass liscensed and mass distributed consumer design element, like a tube of paint.
Fonts are not mass-consumed. In the case of commercial fonts they are commercially consumed, but not en masse the way music and films are.
I’m more interested in a “IKEA” for fonts than an “itunes” Great design, widely distributed, for less!
If you think IKEA furniture is great design you need to discover real furniture.
A font is like any other type of industrial design.
No.
It.
Is.
Not.
Fonts are not mass-consumed like toasters and the same market economics do not apply.
In your view fonts are preposterously-priced, but possibly you are forgetting that both large foundries and independents give away at least one high quality font for free, as an incentive to customers. It’s also a nice way of showing that we’re not consumed with making a buck or obsessed with control of our intellectual property.
j a m e s
8.Aug.2007 1.28pm
Going back to the iTunes thing. A buck a track is less than half price from the $22.99 album price (assuming an average of 12 tracks per album). That is a far shorter price cut than going from $30 to $5.
Maybe it is just because I remember when a filmstrip for a Comp II used to cost the same as my weekly salary. And that was one font: bold or italic with regular, but not both. And this would wear out, if not from use over a few years, then through obsolence when the machines were updated every four or five years. I still have PC fonts from 1988.
I think we are getting a good deal for what we pay. People who want free fonts can get them from the free collections. It doesn’t bother me when they have to spend hours cleaning their font lists when some crude freebie crashes Photoshop. My quality fonts will never do that.
8.Aug.2007 2.23pm
woah, didn’t mean to annoy. your points are well taken and i was just being general and defending somebody who was getting harrassed.
Youre right, i don’t have a good knowledge of how well the industry is doing. I’m just making casual observations based on personal experience. I don’t like the way fonts are sold, i’d buy more if it was different.
IKEA is a good design business model. So is target. I’m no snob.
S
8.Aug.2007 2.34pm
“The only “sticker shock” is experienced by unprofessional designers and unprofessional font users whose expectations of price are unrealistic, and unprofessional.”
I wouldn’t say that. Some fonts are very expensive. Many project are not large budgets. So, sticker shock isn’t that rare of an event.
Not that there’s nothing wrong with selling one’s fonts at a premium.
“If you think IKEA furniture is great design you need to discover real furniture.”
As a piece of commercial design, meeting price points that appeal to the consumer is a major factor of the success of the design.
There seems to be room for premium priced fonts and more mass market fonts. Both can and do seem to exist side by side just fine.
Can one sell more than 10 times the units if they sell a font at $10 rather than $100? I have no idea.
8.Aug.2007 2.40pm
A. Coop Flared is ugly. Coop Light is nice.
B. Does the world need any more fonts? No.
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
C. Attacking an innocent “troller” is both pompous and childish, both signs of insecurity.
8.Aug.2007 3.11pm
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby...
Well, there you have it. You are all flailing at windmills.
; )
8.Aug.2007 3.39pm
Wang Chung have been treated unfairly in this discussion. There are many good Wang Chung songs. Sure, they had a dreck #2 hit in ’86 but “Dance Hall Days” was a solid new-wave classic track (especially the 12 inch) and “Isn’t It About Time We Were on TV” is thought provoking and wobbly. The “Points on the Curve” album was rather piss-poor, mind you. The first couple of albums are a good for more than a few spins.
Better examples: Tommy Tutone, Lipps Inc, Toni Basil, Haysi Fantayzee, Pseudo Echo . . .
8.Aug.2007 4.32pm
such that prices aren’t competitively brought down by market forces.
Don’t expect market forces to work “correctly” under virtual monopolistic circumstances.
If Apple, Adobe and Microsoft didn’t bundle hundreds of fonts for free with their apps, there might be the kind of mass market where indie font manufacturers could reduce prices to a few dollars, because we would be shifting tens of thousands of font licences, rather than hundreds.
However, don’t expect things to remain the same either. It may be possible for reputable independent foundries to develop high volume, low price marketing models, as the industry progresses. After all, as a retail phenomenon, the indie font business only really got started in around 1999, with e-commerce, and is still gathering steam. Note the low price of some impressively stacked Opentype fonts in the Myfonts best-sellers; a lot of value there.
copyright monopoly
That doesn’t have much to do with it (see above).
However, copyright protection is probably a bit too long. William St Clair found that when it was 12-24 years (for literary works), that produced the most dynamic cultural effects (in his book The Reading Nation in the Romantic Period).
With a controlled market and long copyright protection, St Clair found a situation where the dominant businesses produced new material at high prices, allowing them to milk their legacy assets, in various price brackets geared to different levels of purchaser, for long periods of time. I’m not quite sure how that compares with fonts. It’s hard to compare intellectual property for physical and digital products, and I haven’t finished his book yet, let alone tried to figure out how it fully relates to fonts.
8.Aug.2007 4.48pm
As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers.
The rest of you, out of the water! (who gets to decide which 10 get to enter the kingdom of designers? ...whoever passes out the most FontBooks?)
8.Aug.2007 6.19pm
You can always tell which people have never designed, or attempted to design a typeface. They are usually the ones who moan and bleat about type being ’too expensive’ and say ’more people would buy it if it were cheaper’.
Blah blah blah.
B. Does the world need any more fonts? No.
Does the world need any more terrible designers assaulting my eyeballs with terrible logos? No.
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
Oh my god! This is a truly ignorant statement! You are one funny dude, Koppa. Luckily this world is can handle more than 10 fine printing ’artists’.
—K
8.Aug.2007 10.22pm
B. Does the world need any more fonts? No.
Koppa, are you F**ked in the head? really, I mean come on, that is mental!
At this stage in the game, type design is, at best, a hobby, regardless of how many of you are professionals. As far as I’m concerned, there’s room in this world for about 10 professional type designers. There are much bigger fish to fry these days.
Oooh, your saying it to get attention... I get it now. Because, really, that is insane.
C. Attacking an innocent “troller” is both pompous and childish
Like your design work, which is atrocious, I mean come on, I’m so sick of bad design and people who are all talk, why can’t you back yourself up? those logos are so BAD! come ON! its so insane that people could even contemplate paying for these... god! I can’t say enough of how bad they are!
Your work is truly like eating at McDonalds... but your comments on type designers are a lot worse.
ST
9.Aug.2007 6.36am
Nick- you said what i was trying to say in a much better and more precise way.
also, tommy tutone would have been a much better example. The internet so reduces my communication skills.
I certainly don’t downplay how much work it takes to design a font. It takes a huge amount of work to design anything the right way. This isn’t about what fonts should cost. its about what fonts could cost if potential markets were tapped.
All i can say is that design is super-hip right now. Vastly, astoundingly HIP. You just have to teach a certain market segment to care about something that is quite opaque (like where their font folder is hidden on their cute little macbook.)
I definetly agree about the Adobe, Mac, Microsoft monopoly. However, i think the fact that if you google “font” half of what comes up is THOUSANDS OF FREE FONTS!!! FREE FREE FREE!!!! is even worse for business. People want to pay and are dubious of the choice between free and expensive. I think it would be better to convince them to sell their fonts for even the tiniest amount. I’d really like to see a middle ground, a “student grade” so to speak.
9.Aug.2007 8.42am
Holy cow, have I ever been hammered on my earlier comments. Mostly I’m glad someone called me funny. Okay, to some, my logos suck, and I’m a terrible designer, and I guess that very well could be true...subjectively, anyway. I’m not saying nobody can design a decent type face, I’m sure there are plenty of you out there who can. No...I KNOW there are plenty of people out there who can. All I’m saying is that there are lots of good ones out there already, and with the world going to hell the way it is, maybe sooner or later we (including me) should all concentrate on something else. Is that really so ignorant? But that’s not type talk, and maybe you’re right, maybe I am just an attention getting ego-maniac. I like to think of it as stirring the pot. Peace to you all, honestly.
9.Aug.2007 9.16am
I like to think of it as stirring the pot.
One of my favorite pastimes. However, I have found this pot can easily boil over when stirred too vigorously. Peace and all that.
; )
9.Aug.2007 9.27am
half of what comes up is THOUSANDS OF FREE FONTS!!! FREE FREE FREE!!!!
And if you click them, about 75% lead you to Monotype’s fonts.com.
It’s like when record companies seed “pre-release” albums with tracks full of only static to the file-sharing networks.
I wonder who’s strategy that was and whether it is successful?
9.Aug.2007 3.58pm
Wang Chung have been treated unfairly in this discussion. There are many good Wang Chung songs. ...
Ray’s comment from left field on the justification of the Wang Chung example wins.
I do understand that premium fonts often come with premium prices, but it seems more like there isn’t really a mid-level market of typefaces.
I see the font market much like the market for buying sunglasses. You can get the cheap-o $5 sunglasses at any drug store, the $30 sunglasses at a department store, the $120 sunglasses at a boutique, or blow $600 for the custom designer shades at a fancy shop in a world-class city. But what if you want to pay something like $75? The options become much more limited at that mid-level price.
And yet, they’re still just sunglasses - stylish pieces of plastic to protect your eyes from the sun. You could look through the stadium bleachers for a free lost pair if you had the time and patience for such a thing (and the willingness to put up with many a broken pair).
9.Aug.2007 4.35pm
But what if you want to pay something like $75?
You buy the ShadeMaker XXL pack of knock-offs in every color for $29.95 and pocket the difference?
9.Aug.2007 6.39pm
Hi there:
Spottedfeather> As much everyone in this thread thinks they know you, they don’t. WE DON’T KNOW YOUR SITUATION. If $30 (or the $255 you’ll have to pay to actually get Coop Flaired) is too much for you to pay- that’s fine. There are alternatives of similar stylization that might interest you.
Browse this foundrys’ listings
http://www.myfonts.com/browse/foundry/btn/
Specifically:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/btn/grilled-cheese-btn/
and
The bold weight of this font is very close to Coop Flaired
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/btn/hawaiian-aloha-btn/
or
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/btn/roller-world-btn/
Yes these fonts are for-pay, but 12.99 surely beats the 200 plus you have to put out. As for me I would not even spend 2 cents on Coop- its the ugliest thing in the world. That’s me. But House Industries- the foundry- makes a quality product. This means that the metrics (letter spacing), glyph design, hinting (how well it looks on screen) is virtually perfect. And that’ where the higher price come from.
That’s not to say all quality fonts are well priced- Device Fonts (cute but pricey) , Gary Munch’s Really, and everything by Red Rooster is stupidly priced!
But anyway- I hope I have helped you. And don’t listen to the goons in this thread. Typophile can be a great resource- use it to your advantage.
All my best to you,
Mike Diaz :-)
9.Aug.2007 8.03pm
I think there are a few threads on Typophile right now that are moments away from becoming insult-fests. It is ok for someone not to be able to afford a $30 font. I think it is far better that the person is making an effort to rightfully license a font that they can afford rather than trolling with the pirates looking for a copy of Coop to use without proper licensing.
At the end of the day it is what is done with the font that matters not the original cost (or quality) of the font.
Let’s keep it above board and not go around insulting anyone.
10.Aug.2007 9.52am
Agreed with the recent comment by Miss Tiffany, and crazily this was on my mind last night. I want apologize myself for the comments I made that ruffled a few feathers. I used an exaggerated number for effect, the point being that with the digital age, there are now a LOT of cooks in the kitchen, and while we many of us deserve to be paid like professionals, we cannot demand it, or whine about it when it doesn’t happen. Which is why I work for peanuts within my small rural community (population 4,335), and often give my services away to folks that cannot afford to pay for anything. Please, all, understand that I personally appreciate all of your efforts in making this a more graphically beautiful world.
10.Aug.2007 1.41pm
First off ... I love you all
Just because you care
there’s a hand-full of you whose comments brought our office to loud Hurrahs (as I read aloud this article in particular)
I’d like to add my own comments on this subject:
1) there was a time when my pay-rate was such that it was worth it to my boss to pay for the 10+ hours of font fixing required with free (usually un-tested) fonts. Incidentally I was recently flattered when I was presented with a company credit card specifically for font buying (whooda thunk it) ... I don’t say this to brag (much) only to explain that as far as business models go it matters what’s worth more, time or money. At this point in our firm’s history, so-called “luxury high-priced” fonts are a money now VS money later decision ...
2) the sad truth of the matter is that for every one of US there are forty or so for whom there exists less than a dozen fonts (Arial and TimesNR being the MVP’s)and all the others are considered artsy fluff suitable for kindergarten teachers who want to gussy up their classroom. I get depressed just thinking about it.
3)No one will care as much about a font as it’s creator (save in certain cases where there’s some idol worship involved [helvetica]), but this won’t stop people from pouring their hearts into great design even at the risk of having their work summed up as “such a simple thing”. (personally, going back to the “IKEA” model, if I were to have some fantastic, useful, mass-marketed-high-design artifact that I designed referred to as “such a simple thing” I believe it would be a point of great pride ... but that’s neither here nor there)
that is all ... thank you for bearing with my verbosity
-Pablo