Footnotes in M$ Word + Aldus PageMaker

AzizMostafa's picture

Dear Typophiles,
1. Is it possible to make footnotes in Aldus PageMaker? How?
2. Is it possible to format footnotes in 2+columns in M$ Word? How?
Thanks + Flowers

William Berkson's picture

I haven't used PageMaker for a while--it also has been owned by Adobe since 1994!

In MS Word go to format/columns and choose 2 columns. Then with your cursor at the place you want to put the footnote go to Format/Reference/Footnote and press enter.

Word will then put a footnote number both in your text and at the bottom of whatever column the cursor was in. You can format the footnote further by highlighting the text of the footnote and going again to the 'format' menu.

This works in English, I don't know about Arabic.

AzizMostafa's picture

Thanks W.B, but that does not yield in a 2+column footnotes?!
Neither in Arabic nor in English?!

William Berkson's picture

I am in Windows XP and with Word 2002. It works here. Do you have different versions?

AzizMostafa's picture

Dear William, I think you misunderstood me. I am not asking how to make a 2+column document, but how to make the footnotes themselves flow in 2+columns.

2. PageMaker was owned by Adobe since 1987.
And the first Windows version appeared in 1993.
I have been using it since 1987 and
still working on PageMaker5.5Me for windows 3.11.

Thanks once again with Flowers.

William Berkson's picture

What I described will put a footnote under each column where you insert a footnote number. I just tried it on one column, and after 8 lines it flowed to the second column automatically. Is that what you wanted?

It doesn't seem to go beyond the second column, but you can test for yourself.

For full control, you are going to need to use a page layout program, and do it custom for each note, I suspect. Then you can put in linked frames etc. and get whatever you want, but not automatically.

AzizMostafa's picture

William has confused Footnotes with Footnotes References?!
OK, it is better to be demonstrated with this Virtual layout where:
Above Separator = One-Col document
Below Separator = 2-Col Footnotes.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(1)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(2)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(3)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(4)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(4)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(5)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(5)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(6)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(6)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(8)
___________________________________ Footnotes Separator
(1)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |(5)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(2)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |(6)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(3)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |(7)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(4)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |(8)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
..............................................^..............................................
Dotted line just to centre the pointer to the line between the 2 cols.
Is this possible?

William Berkson's picture

Aziz, you asked for footnotes in two columns, and did not mention how many columns the text was in. I assumed that the text was also in two columns--in which case my suggestion will work.

The layout you explain now is unusual, and I doubt that MS Word can handle it. Word is set up to do common tasks automatically, and if you want to do anything else it is prohibitively difficult, in my experience.

So the only way to go is probably just to do it in PageMaker. There you can do it with two linked text frames, but it won't be automatic.

edit: I just checked and the new version of InDesign does automatic footnotes like Word. You can see it here:

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/video_workshop/index.html?id=vid0218

I don't know if it will do what you want though--and I don't know when the ME version is coming out. I have the first version of InDesign ME and it doesn't do automatic foot notes.

ps. According to this:

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pdfs/timeline.pdf

Adobe acquired Aldus and put out PageMaker under their brand in 1994.

Thomas Phinney's picture

Yes, Adobe acquired Aldus in late 1994. Before that is was "Aldus PageMaker." Adobe's Seattle offices were created by that acquisition, and a surprising number of my Adobe Seattle colleagues are former Aldus folks.

T

AzizMostafa's picture

Thanks William for the informative links.

1. According to PM5.5ME manual:
Developed by Aldus Corporation in 1985 + Copyrighted by Adobe in 1993.

2. Yes, it is possible to make footnotes in 2+columns with PageMaker manually. But not with 2 linked text frames. Here is how:

Assuming page size = 1, Top = Bottom margin = Zero
1. Make 2 separate files: footnotes-Only (F.pm) + Body-Only (B.pm).
2. Typeset the 2 files in the appropriate styles using the same page setup,
in such away that if B.pm uses G-Q then F.pm must use R-Z styles.
3. Find the F/B = Number of pages in F.pm/Number of pages in B.pm.
Then:
4. Make New.pm with same page setup + all the styles used in the 2 files.
5. Resize the page so that Bottom margin = 1-F/B and copy/autoflow B.pm
6. Resize the page so that Top margin = F/B and copy/autoflow F.pm.
7. Resize the page to back to 1.
8. Go pagemaking.

Have been doing it for the last 14 years with bulky books of lengthy footnotes.

mili's picture

InDesign CS2 was already able to deal with automatic footnotes. I love the feature when importing long texts from Word.

AzizMostafa's picture

> I love the feature when importing long texts from Word.
Page maker has no match
http://typophile.com/node/33157

William Berkson's picture

>Page maker has no match

Aziz, I think Adobe has largely abandoned further development of Page Maker, and is putting their effort into InDesign. InDesign CS 2, which Mili says has automatic footnotes is available in ME version, and here in the US they offer a free upgrade to CS 3 when it comes out. I found the transition from PageMaker to InDesign CS easy. InDesign is a more powerful program, though more expensive as well.

I think I understand your procedure for footnotes in PageMaker. But I don't see how you can get two columns without linked frames on each page in the footnote file you write about.

AzizMostafa's picture

> InDesign is a more powerful program, though more expensive as well.
... and requires more powerful + more expensive PC?!

> Adobe has largely abandoned further development of Page Maker,
> and is putting their effort into InDesign.

Sadly and largely because of M$-Induction. Pagemaker 5.5ME
• does runs well on windows 3.11.
• runs on Windows 98 with interruptions.
• does not run at all on windows 2000 + XP

> I don’t see how you can get two columns without linked frames
> on each page in the footnote file you write about.

Where's the difficulty:
1. In making 1+column B.pm and/or F.pm? Or,
2. in linking the 1+col footnotes with the 1+col body text?

1. Formatting is carried out separately+independently, as with any other file.
2. With eyes+fingers? That is why I am looking for alternative ways?!

William Berkson's picture

I don't know the last version of PageMaker ME, but Winsoft,, which produces the ME versions of Adobe products, seems to sell only InDesign now. I'm afraid you've got an orphaned program or at least version...

And yes, the only way to make footnoting automatic, which is what you are looking for if I understand you, you have to go to InDesign 2 or 3.

AzizMostafa's picture

> I’m afraid you’ve got an orphaned program or at least version…

Not only version 5.5ME
• does runs well on windows 3.11.
• runs on Windows 98 with interruptions.
• does not run at all on windows 2000 + XP
but the English versions 4 and 5 too.

> you have to go to InDesign 2 or 3.
Thanks, I do not need them, my eyes and fingers are faster on PM5.5

AzizMostafa's picture

Ever visited this site?
http://www.fontworld.com/
Adobe ME Softwares + Fonts

Si_Daniels's picture

>http://www.fontworld.com/

It's wonderful to see that Adobe enforces minimum design standards on its resellers web sites ;-)

William Berkson's picture

FontWorld is where I got my InDesign CS ME.

The English versions page maker I think 6 and surely 6.5, and 7.0, which Adobe still sells work on windows XP.

>my eyes and fingers are faster on PM5.5

Aziz, have you ever actually used InDesign? I believe you will find you can use the same work flow, but do more than PageMaker--particularly as far as typography.

Si: yes, that FontWorld site is an embarassment. And it's the only place to buy InDesign ME in the US, I think.

DTY's picture

And it’s the only place to buy InDesign ME in the US, I think.

There are a few others as well, like aramedia.com, worldlanguage.com, and linguistical.com (might be some others too that I've forgotten) and there might be ways of importing it from sellers in Israel. These sites don't give you quite the same impression of design sophistication as FontWorld, but some of them have a certain "individuality" of their own. Be wary of which version they're really offering, though! - when I was pricing it for a client a year ago I remember seeing a site with both 2.0 and CS2 for sale, the former at a slight discount :)

AzizMostafa's picture

> Aziz, have you ever actually used InDesign?
William, the only advantage over pagemaker is the support of Opentype.
I will switch to it as soon as useful Opentype Arabic fonts are developed. So far, no good news.

2 I see no advantage of XP versions of PageMaker over PM5.
Making searchable+linear Acrobat Files is no better than before
But making acrobat files out of PM5.5 is not possible.
So I do the preliminary typesetting on windows 3.11 then
finalize the project on the Arabic edition of windows 98.
Fortunately the codepages are the same.

Thanks+Flowers

dezcom's picture

"InDesign ME"

What does the "ME" part mean? How is it different than the usuall version?

ChrisL

William Berkson's picture

>the “ME” part

That means InDesign Middle East, and it does right to left languages--Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew. It turns out that the left to right coding is down at the bottom of the program, so the whole thing has to be rebuilt to do both r-to-l and l-to-r text. This is done by the French company Winsoft.

John Hudson, who is a position to know, has said here on Typophile that it is very well done and stable.

Aziz, as far as typography, for European languages InDesign has not only Open Type processing, but also things like the paragraph composer and hanging indentation in the margins, which I don't believe exist in PageMaker. I don't know whether these are of any use for Arabic typesetting.

AzizMostafa's picture

Thanks William, re-exploring the Middle Eastern version of Adobe InDesign,
I have found this exclusive tool....
It is only $50,000 per copy, a bit more or less what my Font+Flowers pay?!
I will buy Adobe Indesign+New computer+WinSoft-Tasmeem shortly.

billtroop's picture

William, there are excellent reasons still to use PageMaker; for example, by default, it automatically tracks type according to point size, a useful trick neither Quark nor InDesign yet have -- inexplicably. I personally find it a much easier and more useful program to run. Whereas I would probably not set a book in it today, I would not dream of importing the workflows I already have in PageMaker to another program. Although it is tottering towards the grave, it still performs wonderfully well; in fact I gave it a special 'iWard' in MacDirectory last year. I know several designers who have every program there is, and no financial problems, who still use PageMaker for preference. It's a great program!

InDesign's 'fine typography' features, such as hanging indents, paragraph composition, and 'optical kerning' are so badly implemented, still, after all these years, that they cannot, still, be recommended for fine typesetting. Even Ventura does hanging punctuation better.

I had some hopes that CS3 would bring some substantial improvements in this regard but from what I hear so far, my hopes are to be dashed. It's really a pity that Adobe has not considered it worthwhile to improve these important features, but it is abundantly clear that nobody outside of the type design community is interested in them. That's just as well, since they don't work as they should.

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