Print help, always off either too small, too big by a few inches.

battlefield's picture

Anybody know a source/tips of different papers measures to work with for print?
Somehow i alway end up having the spreads(of a magazine, newspaper (a4, A3)) a few inches too wide or too small. Caused me lots of headaches.

Thanks!

pattyfab's picture

I don't understand your question. These sizes are standard, and if you google "standard paper sizes" you find tons of sites with this info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size for example.

How do you end up inches off???

aluminum's picture

Are you trying to calculate page creep? I was under the impression that most prepress shops can handle that via their software for you.

pattyfab's picture

Page creep isn't inches. And yes, the designer shouldn't have to deal with that.

Bert Vanderveen's picture

Designers do not have to deal with creep. But they do have to take care that creep doesn't compromise the design (by clipping essential parts of it).

timd's picture

http://www.code-line.com/software/artdirectorstoolkit.html

This software can help with paper sizes (and more).

Tim

battlefield's picture

Thanks people,
I'm an InDesign user, previously Quark(for two years orso)
I've been getting complaints from these printshops saying the document size is off by a few mm's (not inches, sorry) including bleeding.
I felt like their messing with me, i had it with 3 printshops now.
Very very confusing, cause the other says its too much or too little.

Anyway, thank you for sharing, i will look in to those sources provided.

Jackie Frant's picture

In the print dialogue - just click on FIT PAGE SIZE - you'll be fine.

battlefield's picture

By the way, what exactly is the "creep"? and how does this effect my print work?
I read something about it sometime ago was a bit confusing.

i mean print work for the print-shops, just want to make it almost print ready for them so they don't bounce it back.

pattyfab's picture

Better to use the correct page size from the start. In fact some softwares (Quark being one) has some standard page sizes in the dialogue box when you open a new file.

battlefield's picture

yes, that i know, so does inDesign i believe.

aluminum's picture

Well, what do you mean off my a few MM? Is the page size you set up the same as the page size you are having printed? The software shouldn't be off by anything. It sounds perhaps more like a communication issue between you and the printer.

As for page creep, when you saddle stitch a publication, due to the thickness of the paper, the insise pages 'creep' out away frm the spine more so than the outside/cover pages. This is called the creep, and is trimmed off at the end. If you don't account for it, you will notice your page margins shrinking as you get to the center of the magazine/book. Technically, the signature in the center is going to be narrower than the signature used for the cover.

battlefield's picture

Off by a few millimeters, i don't understand it either(why this kept happening).
after I'm done designing a catalog or one time a business card
i get a call the next morning saying the size is not correct by a few millimeters.

I couldnt afford to blame the printshop they might deliver something stretched out or something the risk is too much and i think they take this to account too.

thanks for the info on creep aluminum!

timd's picture

To demonstrate creep for yourself staple several pages of gash paper in the centre and fold to make a book then trim it to a size, then dismantle it and measure the middle spread against the cover, depending on the stock there can be a surprising amount of difference, it frequently affects page numbering or running heads since they are more often toward the outside edges.
How are you providing the artwork to the printers in pdf format or InDesign files?
Tim

dezcom's picture

"...or one time a business card"

A business card? How can that be? Check the preferences to see what measuring system you are using. Perhaps you have it set to picas and think it is mm?

ChrisL

pattyfab's picture

There shouldn't be creep on a business card!

If there is doubt, have the printer provide a template. I often have publishing clients send me dummy books to measure for the jacket, I refuse to do that and insist on a dimension chart from the printer to make sure I'm following their guidelines for turn, bleed, etc. If there's a mistake let it be on their end, not mine.

Also be SURE you're clear whether or not the client wants bleed included in the file size or outside the trim (I prefer to do the latter). That may be the source of the discrepancy.

Miss Tiffany's picture

I don't understand. If the client gives you the dimensions in the beginning how does it end up being off? Has there always been a dimension agreed upon?

battlefield's picture

Miss Tiffany
Dimensions from the client, wow that i never had or ever came to mind.
I always did that extra work, and then it was only me and the printer.

pattyfab
I know there shouldn't and aren't creep on business card. i was just saying i had one returned, that the measurements didn't meet(? their printing templates perhaps?).
these printshops are usually very cheap, it could be that their inexperienced or my lack of technical print design.

dezcom
Checked, I Always work within MM's.
I'll purchase that book you mentioned earlier looks very interesting.

timd
Thanks for the tip, i will definitely have a look-see.

--
Things should be different from now on, i love you guys! :D
Thanks for your inputs!

pattyfab's picture

Dimensions from the client, or from the printer, it's the same.

I'm still puzzled by this thread. It's not rocket science. There are standard page sizes, if you use those there shouldn't be any discrepancy. If the job requires a size that isn't standard you should be working with dimensions provided either by the client or the printer.

As I said in the earlier post above, make sure not to include the bleed (usually 1/8", 9 points, or 3 mm) in the trim unless directed to do so.

Furthermore, is there no proof stage? The jobs go straight to press without anybody checking them?

Miss Tiffany's picture

Here's a crazy idea prompted by what Patty just said. If you output the job and forget to tell it to include bleed, or if the designer doesn't include bleed, then the job could indeed be incorrect size. I remember, maybe 10 years ago, digital prepress was still young, people forgetting to design to include bleed and then the press would turn around and blame the prepress people and the prepress people would turn around and blame the designer.

pattyfab's picture

Yes, and this should be part of Design 101. It is furthermore why you need templates or dimension charts from your client/printer, not to mention guidelines for setting up the job (which most printers have, either on the web or in pdf form). There should be no guessing games about this. Most printers charge a hefty hourly wage to fix simple design mistakes like forgetting the bleed, supplying art as RGB instead of CMYK, not setting up your process colors properly, etc.

dezcom's picture

That is why printers just love billing for AAs.

ChrisL

aluminum's picture

The key element we don't know is how you are submitting these files. If you are submitting the actual DTP file, then the printer should be receiving the same thing.

However, if you are post processing and exporting to a different format or making a PDF, perhaps that's where the problem is springing up.

Also, as someone mentioned, perhaps there's a confusion between the dimensions of the stock and the trimmed piece?

battlefield's picture

They usually request a PDF file, but 'some' printshops ask for the PostScript file, which works very good for most of them. but a lot of those smaller printshops ask for a PDF which is also good, but always have it coming back. well i dont know, i could indeed be that there are some confusion tween the stock and trimmed piece.

however for now on the client should provide the dimensions for the work.

Thx

pattyfab's picture

You have the option when making a pdf file, of including crop marks. That should avoid confusion re bleed.

Bert Vanderveen's picture

Could be a problem with the PPD. Maybe that takes in account a certain margin that wont print. Could also be that the printer wrongly assumes you have included bleed. Could be a lot of things.

To be sure, always communicate what you expect the end result to be — on paper, preferably. At least mention dimension(s) of the end product, paper stock, number of colours to be printed (and their designations), print run, delivery date.

Bert Vanderveen's picture

Could be a problem with the PPD. Maybe that takes in account a certain margin that wont print. Could also be that the printer wrongly assumes you have included bleed. Could be a lot of things.

To be sure, always communicate what you expect the end result to be — on paper, preferably. At least mention dimension(s) of the end product, paper stock, number of colours to be printed (and their designations), print run, delivery date.

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