[music] James Brown, 1933-2006

pattyfab's picture

I too saw the 60 minutes piece Jackie referred to; as that archive gradually gets explored and revealed a lot more stories will come to light.

Aziz: you better be careful - it's not clear from your posts what YOU actually believe. Holocaust denial is in fact a crime in many European countries. They take their history seriously. In fact Germany teaches students a very detailed history of their country's actions during WW 2. They have made a much more thorough and responsible examination of their culpability as a nation than most other countries, in the interest of history not repeating itself. I'd like to see the US do the same regarding our own treatment of native americans and african americans. Unfortunately anti-semitism is still rampant both in Europe and in the middle east, and not helped by the actions of the Israeli government. It's possible to be Jewish and not a zionist per se.

The Museum of Tolerance at the Simon Wiesenthal center in LA is a fascinating lesson on genocide and intolerance, placing the holocaust smack in the context of both past and present situations globally - I recommend anyone in LA go see it.

Again, happy new year, peace on earth.

William Berkson's picture

>as that archive gradually gets explored

Microfilm copies of many of the camp records are at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC.

For a friend who just completed a book on one of the camps, I spent four or five hours looking through these lists of thousands and thousands of individuals on those lists--many or most not Jewish on the particular lists I was looking at, but many thousands identified as Jewish. When I saw their names--almost all of them murdered--typed up neatly and noted as to their country of origin, age IIRC, and supposed 'crime' in neat German hand writing, it was pretty chilling and depressing.

pattyfab's picture

The Holocaust Museum is a chilling place. The train car made my hair stand on end. It didn't help that I was racing through it just before closing and kept hearing doors clang shut behind me.

AzizMostafa's picture

1. Does "if you say" mean "you said"?!

> The fact of the holocaust and the scale of it is not a matter of serious controversy in Europe, which is where it happened.

Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?

This is what Ahmadinejad said. What was inaccurate in what he said?

Jackie Frant's picture

Dear Aziz,

You seem to have a grasp of the English language, but because of your first question, I guess we can assume that it is not your native tongue. If "you say" is meaning - if one poses a question -- it doesn't mean that any one person said an exact sentence.

I would like to take this time to remind you, as I wrote earlier -- the concentration camps took the lives of 17 million. We hear all the time of the 6 million Jews whose lives were taken. But there were 11 millions others - they were intellects, Gypsies, Cheks, Rumanians, scientists, musicians, artists, thespians, Hungarians, Dutch, Germans, and of course, anyone who was caught being against the Nazi government.

We mourn the loss of all, not just in the holocaust - but in all wars. It is a waste of life. Sometimes it is necessary, and we all pray that good will overcome evil.

This is not a topic for a type board. And none of us want to be negative or antagonistic.

We cannot understand if you are just trying to achieve an open debate, or you are taking a stand -- of which, we are not sure on what side.

Iran's president clearly stated the denial of the holocaust. BWW, so did Austria and Russia right after the war. Austria taught a new history stating mostly Jewish propaganda. Russia just didn't teach anything about the war to its young. It wasn't until the Berlin wall fell, that Germany finally admit "guilt" and started with apologies and reparations. Large German manufacturers have apologized for using slave labor - even if it was with a grain of salt saying the Nazi regime made them do it.

But I don't want to really get off topic again. All I'm saying at his point - is Rest In Peace and we cannot forget. For if we do - history is bound to repeat itself. Look at Bosnia a few years ago -- fortunately the world stepped in to stop the genocide.

P.S. If I were a moderator of this forum -- I would either close this thread, or take it up with the powers that be to delete it. It really has nothing to do with type. There are sites for Brown and Holocausts.

William Berkson's picture

Aziz, the question of the legitimacy of the state of Israel is a different one from the question of the reality of the holocaust.

I personally think the state of Israel is a legitimate state, but I recognize that there is a legitimate debate about it. If you want to talk about the legitimacy of the state of Israel, fine, though I doubt this is the best forum. In my opinion, and in the opinion of almost all who know something of recent European history, there is no legitimate debate about whether the holocaust happened.

>Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?

I don't know what this statement is referring to, so I don't know how to respond. The facts are that on May 14, 1948 the National Council issued Israel's Declaration of Independence. This was declared in Tel Aviv, and reported around the world in the news. I'm sure it was reported in Europe as well as elsewhere.

blank's picture

This thread is an amazing testament to the civility of Typophile's membership. There are few corners of the internet where a thread can get derailed into discussions of holocaust denial and the legitimacy of Israel without devolving into a stew of vulgarities that even a sailor's son wouldn't deign to utter.

Jackie Frant's picture

>Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?
>

I did mean to address this statement. It shows that one has not been following or learning the history of the world. The brief statement for this was Europe didn't want the displaced Jewish population. Many Jews did not want to go back to their "homelands" were they suffered at the hands of their "neighbors." The UK had a problem. They had taken position of Palestine at the end of the Great War - handed over to them by the defunct League of Nations. The Europeans Jews wanted a homeland, and in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem. The UK had a constant battle - not only didn't the Palestines want them on the land - but the displaced Jews who were resettling there -- were also fighting the Brits. The new United Nations turned the land over to the displaced Jews - the first and only Jewish state on this planet. The Brits left - and the Jews did everything they could to make their new homeland tolerable.

I've left out much - I'm trying to keep it simple and easy to understand. This became their homeland with the blessings of a world council -- and the irrigated and worked the land. They took a desert and made it an oasis. The world was to watch over, happy with the knowledge all Jews would be "there" -- and no where else.

Jewish people are not loved by everyone. Some are scared of them and would believe to this day that they have horns on their heads. There is the myth they hold all the world power, and oh, let's just not go there.

Simple - They didn't want to be in Europe - Europe didn't want them. UK had a large problem with Palestine - and the UN gave the problem to the Jews. The End.

And while we are on this discussion - I always wondered, if Israel lost the 6-Day War - would the world have asked the new Palestine to return the land to them?

AzizMostafa's picture

So far, there is no misunderstanding between us in that:
1. The Holocaust crimes were committed by European against European Jews and Christians as well. May All the Murdered rest in peace.
2. There was no Israel before 1948.
3. The proclamation of Israel had nothing to do with Holocaust.
______________________________
Please, Correct me if I am wrong.

dezcom's picture

May the new year bring peace and understanding among all peoples of the World. May we forgive eachother our past prejudices and wrong doing and begin life again with no ill will.

ChrisL

Dan Weaver's picture

Chris the people who hate will always hate they don't care anything about any other people. What if they were endangered specicies of animimals would they care for them?

AzizMostafa's picture

> The Europeans Jews wanted a homeland, and in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem.

1. The same Mesiah recognized by Christians. Or a different One?
2. Are they preparing for his noble (re)appearance in Jerusalem?

> Jewish people are not loved by everyone. Some are scared of them and would believe to this day that they have horns on their heads.

But thousands of Jews live peacefuly in Iran, mainly in Tehran+Isfahan.
They do have their own shops, schools, temples and restaurants.
And they are represented in the Iranian Consultative+Experts Assemblies. And, they do play a constructive role in building+ defending their homeland.

William Berkson's picture

>1. The Holocaust crimes were committed by European against European Jews and Christians as well. May All the Murdered rest in peace.
>2. There was no Israel before 1948.
>3. The proclamation of Israel had nothing to do with Holocaust.

1. This is correct. But it gives a fuller picture if you add that it was Nazis leading the murdering, and that they targeted specific groups: Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who criticized their regime, amongst others.

2. Not quite right. There was a Jewish state in ancient times, which was at its largest under King Solomon, around the year 1000 BCE. It was ended in 576 BCE by Bablyonian conquest, and exile. Jews returned to the land of Israel 70 years later, and eventually there was a second Jewish state from 164 BCE until about the first century C.E. After that, for 1900 years Jews in dispersion preserved their unique culture and Hebrew language, and every day prayed for return to the land of Israel. There was also, with with some exceptions, a continuous small Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. Present day Israel, from 1948, is the third Jewish commonwealth.

3. No, the proclamation of Israel was very much influenced by the holocaust. What I said is that the question of whether the holocaust happened, and the question of the legitimacy of the founding of the State of Israel are two different questions.

There is actually no honest question as to whether the holocaust happened, as it was a huge event in the 20th century, very well documented and still remembered today by people who experienced it. By questioning it Ahmadinejad simply made himself look foolish or crazy or wicked in the eyes of all Europeans and Americans. Other Iranian leaders have acknowledged its reality, as they haven't wanted to look so foolish.

The holocaust created a huge problem of Jewish refugees. This fueled further Jewish immigration to the land of Israel, and made the world, including the UN and the USA, sympathetic to the cause of a Jewish homeland and place of refuge in the site of the ancient Jewish states. And the holocaust is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence of Israel.

The question of whether the founding of the Jewish state was legitimate is a reasonable question. As I said, I think the answer is 'yes', but I recognize that there are arguments on both sides.

On your more recent questions I will post later.

William Berkson's picture

>in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem.

This is not historically accurate. The twelve tribes ceased after the fall of the Northern kingdom, in 722 BCE. However, the idea of a messiah only appears in Judaism after 164 BCE, during the second Jewish state. It is mainly post-biblical and appears in the Bible only in the latest passages, such as in the Book of Daniel, and even there it is not clear.

Also the establishment of the Jewish state was done primarily not by religious Jews, but by secular socialists who wanted a homeland for the Jews as an ethnic group, and not to fulfill religious hopes.

>1. The same Mesiah recognized by Christians. Or a different One?
>2. Are they preparing for his noble (re)appearance in Jerusalem?

1. The Jewish concept of the messiah is not entirely clear, but it is clear at least that the messiah will not be a God, but a person who will re-establish the Jewish state and usher in a reign of peace in the world. This is decisively different from the Christian concept.

2. Traditionally, the only preparation for the coming of the messiah is the doing of good deeds. Prayers for the coming of the messiah, soon, is part of the traditional Jewish daily prayers (which were formulated in the the second century CE).

AzizMostafa's picture

> The holocaust created a huge problem of Jewish refugees. This fueled further Jewish immigration to the land of Israel, and made the world, including the UN and the USA, sympathetic to the cause of a Jewish homeland and place of refuge in the site of the ancient Jewish states.

1. The Jews were travellers from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers.
Why Jerusalem was chosen for their settlements? Why not Jordan for example? UN+USA were supposed to respect All religions, not only Jews?! But by doing that, UN+USA extinguished fire in Europe to fuel bigger fire in the middle east?!

2. How did the Jews re-settlement take place in the land of Israel?
Was that land inhabited? Was it a barren desert?
Or was mistakenly known by the land of Fig and Olive?
Were they welcomed by the inhabitants? Or they were sent with weapons?

3. To which ethnic group did the European Jews belong?
Did their grandfathers migrate from the land of Israel to Europe?
When and why?

> Also the establishment of the Jewish state was done primarily not by religious Jews, but by secular socialists who wanted a homeland for
the Jews as an ethnic group, and not to fulfill religious hopes.

Can I take it that the Jewish National Council that proclaimed the state of Israel were Secular Socialists?!

Jackie Frant's picture

Aziz,

Honestly most of what you ask is over my head. I can only add that the land was inhabited by others, and that others still live within the borders of Israel. Many Arabs are proud to have been born and raised in TelAviv and Jerusalem. (I met quite a few in Manhattan over the years...)

But your questions bring up another question I've always had - and maybe someone can answer it for both of us -- There is a Jewish custom of raising a glass and saying, "Next year in Jerusalem." I've always wondered about it's historical meaning....

Anyone?

david h's picture

> I’ve always wondered about it’s historical meaning….

Next year in Jerusalem

pattyfab's picture

I wonder what James Brown would think of the way this thread has been hijacked!

If any of you have ever been to Jerusalem you'd know that in a matter of a few square blocks lie the site of the ancient Jewish temple (the walls are still there, the Jews still pray at them), the Dome of the Rock from which Mohammed ascended (you can touch this spot with your hand), the Via Dolorosa (stages of the cross) and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which was built on the site of Jesus's crucifixion. It is impossible to grasp the proximity of these holy sites without actually being there. The Dome of the Rock - which is heartbreakingly beautiful - is actually built on the former site of the Jewish temple. Yes, the Jews were there first. This spot will always be a site of contention. Nothing short of tearing it all down and perhaps turning it into some sort of multi-denominational site of worship with no national or religious jurisdiction will solve this conflict. And yet this solution would anger everyone. It's like Solomon tearing the child in half.

It is frustrating beyond belief that nobody seems to be able to rise above self interest, take the high road and come up with a peaceful solution, which is (I believe) what the vast majority of Jews and Palestinians want. Everybody is acting like the child who only wants the toy because his brother wants it too.

I second the suggestion that the moderators close this thread. We have indeed stayed civilized so far - amazing considering how flame-y some other threads have gotten.

William Berkson's picture

>stayed civilized so far - amazing considering how flame-y some other threads have gotten.

I suspect this is because Aziz is actually open minded, and I would like to think I am too.

The problem with addressing all your questions, Aziz, is that they would take a book--actually many books--to answer them in depth. Because so much history is involved, rather than trying to cite it all, let me just give you my own general view, and if you like I can cite references later.

>1. The Jews were travellers from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers.
Why Jerusalem was chosen for their settlements? Why not Jordan for example?

If you start with Abraham, in maybe 1700 BCE,his family came from Ur, which is maybe not so far from your house. The story goes from the Euphrates to the Nile, and then back to the land of present day Israel & Palestine, which is where it was for the longest period.

With Abraham you are talking about a family or small clan. The history of the Jews as a whole people with their own religion really starts in a way that is trackable after the Exodus from Egypt in about 1300 BCE. There they come into the hill country west of the Jordan river, largely in the current West Bank territories.

King David united the 12 tribes under him as King, and made his capital Jerusalem (which was central within the various tribal areas) in around 1000 BCE. Though a city did exist before that, for the next thousand years (with the exception of 70 years exile in Bablyonia) it was a Jewish city. David's son Solomon built the ancient Jewish Temple there, and that was the center of Jewish worship for the next thousand years also, until the Roman destruction in 70 CE. After 70, there was a Jewish presence in Jerusalem basically whenever it wasn't prevented under pain of death.

In the Jewish psalms, there are praises of Jerusalem while the Jews were in exile in Babylonia. (These pre-date Islam by 1000 years). And after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, the daily prayers contained longing to return to Jerusalem ever since. And of course Jews traditional pray in the direction of Jerusalem, and within Israel toward the Temple mount--all of which predates Islam by hundreds of years.

I should add that the Hebrew language is in the view of most derived from the language of the Caananites, and so the language of the Jews is pretty much native to Jerusalem. Arabic, which is the language of conquerers from Arabia, is also a Semitic language, but not so local in origin.

As far as genetic background, the Jews were a "mixed multitude" even when they came out of Egypt, and today Jews and Israelis come from practically every racial type. Still, a majority (including me) look to me like cousins to Lebanese and Syrians.

The basic point I am making is that the Jews have a very long and strong claim to being people from the land which is currently Israel, and specifically Jerusalem.

I know that one can argue about this, but so too one can argue about the claim of Islam on Jerusalem as a holy site, as you can read in the wikipedia article on this issue.

Now I don't think that either the historic or religious Jewish or Islamic claims to Jerusalem are the most important things in the current situation. But I just mention some of the Jewish ties--and a lot more can be said--as by your question you don't seem to be aware of them.

To me more important than the historical, religious and emotional ties of either Jews or Muslims to Jerusalem is a settlement of the current state of war that will lead to peace and a good future for both Israeli and Palestinian communities.

I'll turn to other of your questions in a later posting.

AzizMostafa's picture

> ... the Dome of the Rock from which Mohammed ascended...

This is a common mistake even among Muslims?! The Dome of the Rock was built after the death of Mohammed by a so-called Muslim Ruler
(2nd after Mohammed) just to lessen the importance of Masjid Al-Aqsa (Remote Mosque) to which Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in mecca) and from there through the 7 heavens to God's presence. Remote Mosque It is still standing nearby but sadly not given the attention as the Dome of the Rock. Have you ever visited it Pattyfab?

AzizMostafa's picture

> David’s son Solomon built the ancient Jewish Temple there, and that was the center of Jewish worship for the next thousand years also

That's right:
To this very place, Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in Mecca),
From this very place (Remote Mosque) through the 7 heavens to God’s presence.
Towards this very place , Moslem were turning face in prayers (Qibla).
Then after 16 months in Madina, Mohammed was instructed to change Qibla from Jerusalem to Kaaba.

AzizMostafa's picture

Very Strange! For the last 2 days, I have been able to post but not to edit nor Insert Images. Testing, I am posting these 2 pictures.
Thanking you and apologizing for any grammatical and spelling errors.


William Berkson's picture

>UN+USA were supposed to respect All religions, not only Jews?! But by doing that, UN+USA distinguished fire in Europe to fuel bigger fire in the middle east?!

>2. How did the Jews re-settlement take place in the land of Israel?
Was that land inhabited? Was it a barren desert?
Or was mistakenly known by the land of Fig and Olive?
Were they welcomed by the inhabitants? Or they were sent with weapons?

>3. To which ethnic group did the European Jews belong?
Did their grandfathers migrate from the land of Israel to Europe?
When and why?

Specific, detailed answers to these questions would take books to answer. Let me just recommend to you, if you are interested in seeing another side to the story from what you usually hear, this Jewish web site and the extensive History of Israel by Howard Sachar.

Overall, my view is the following. Whatever the wisdom of the UN partition in 1948, had the Arab countries accepted it (as the Jews did) they would have soon had an Arab majority in Israel. Instead they publicly declared their intent to massacre all the Jews. In the resulting war 70% of the Arab population fled. The Arab countries refused to negotiate over refugees (until 1992 I believe), and an movement of roughly equal numbers of Jewish refugees from the hostile Arab countries into Israel took place. At the same time, Arab countries tried repeatedly to crush Israel, and conducted terror raids, murdering innocent men, women and children over a period of more than fifty years, as well as conducting a series of unsuccessful wars against Israel.

So whatever the wisdom of the partition, the murderous goals and actions of the Arab countries, the exchange of refugees, and the successful defence of the Jewish state at great cost to Jewish lives in my view legitimates the Jewish state.

So to me the question of returning Israel to Muslim rule is now similar to the question of whether southern Spain should be returned to Muslim rule. In my view, only if you accept the premises of religious fanatics--who, in every religion are the enemies of peace and prosperity--is Israel illegitimate.

pattyfab's picture

>This is a common mistake even among Muslims?! The Dome of the Rock was built after the death of Mohammed by a so-called Muslim Ruler
(2nd after Mohammed) just to lessen the importance of Masjid Al-Aqsa (Remote Mosque) to which Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in mecca) and from there through the 7 heavens to God’s presence. Remote Mosque It is still standing nearby but sadly not given the attention as the Dome of the Rock. Have you ever visited it Pattyfab?

I'm not sure, Aziz - when I toured the Dome of the Rock I was told (by a muslim guide) that it was from that point that Mohammed ascended. Further evidence here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhrah

You will also see from this article that the rock itself also holds great significance in Jewish tradition. And interesting to read this note at the top of the wikipedia article on Al Aqsa
"The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." I fear there is no neutrality where this conflict is concerned.

And I honestly can't remember if I went inside Al Aqsa. I was in Israel over 20 years ago. I know that non-muslims can't enter now, but have no idea if that was the case when I went. I was there shortly after the Camp David accord which was a very joyful time in Israel.

William Berkson's picture

The wikipedia article on Al-Aqsa says that the whole area around the Mosque is referred to as "Al-Aqsa", as well as the Mosque itself, so that would presumably include the Dome of the Rock.

The article is interesting in that it contains a lot of contradictory information, obviously from different hands, and was closed because of controversy. The article includes the controversy over whether 'Al-Aqsa' in the Quran actually refers to a location in Jerusalem.

pattyfab's picture

>the whole area around the Mosque

a.k.a. the temple mount

AzizMostafa's picture

Thanks William Berkson+pattyfab for your understanding and open-mindedness.

> So to me the question of returning Israel to Muslim rule is now similar to the question of whether southern Spain should be returned to Muslim rule

To me, both were unjustified Occupations. Neither Israel is a Jewsish state, nor Spain was ruled by Muslims.

> So whatever the wisdom of the partition, the murderous goals and actions of the Arab countries, the exchange of refugees, and the successful defence of the Jewish state at great cost to Jewish lives in my view legitimates the Jewish state.

So whatever the wisdom of the UN(US+UK) partition, the murderous goals and actions of Israel, the exchange of missiles, and the successful defence of Lebanon at great cost to Muslim+Christian lives in my view legitimates the Resistance of Hizbullah.

> In my view, only if you accept the premises of religious fanatics—who, in every religion are the enemies of peace and prosperity—is Israel illegitimate.

In my view, only if you accept the premises of Secular fanatics—who, in every region are the enemies of peace+justice(religion)—Israel is legitimate.

With due respect to All the True Jews wherever they are.

AzizMostafa's picture

> If any of you have ever been to Jerusalem you’d know that in a matter of a few square blocks lie the site of the ancient Jewish temple (the walls are still there, the Jews still pray at them), ... and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which was built on the site of Jesus’s crucifixion.

Pattyfab, I asked a Jew from Holland I met in KL/Malaysia in 1989 and
I need to confirm the answer to the same question here again. My question was:
It is not hard to conclude that Jesus’s crucifixion happened few square blocks from the Jewish temple. Needless to say that the Jews rejected Jesus Prophethood, but did they witness his crucifixion?
> Temple was closed that day; Otherwise they would surely stop Jesus crucifixion, He replied.
Of course from the angle of enjoying the good and forbidding evil, I commented and he nodded his head.
________________________
True? If not, could you clarify a bit please?

William Berkson's picture

>nor Spain was ruled by Muslims.

Aziz, you are sending me back to the history books--which are very interesting to me.

Parts of present day Spain were ruled by Muslims from 711 to 1492, nearly 800 years. When Spain was first conquered by Islamic armies, it had been Christian for some time.

When present day Israel was conquered by Muslim armies from Arabia, it had also been Christian for hundreds of years. It had been briefly conquered by the Persians, and then the Arab conquest came in 640, establishing Islam. The Arabs were not invited, but conquered by the sword and give people the choice of conversion, death or--in the special case of Christians and Jews--dhimmi (second class) status. The Muslim rulers were in turn re-conquered 450 years later by Christian Crusaders, who ruled for two hundred years, from 1099 to 1291--with the exception of a period when Saladin briefly returned the land to Muslim control (and invited Jews back to Jerusalem).

After that Muslims from Egypt (Mamluks) regained control, until they were conquered by the Turks, also Muslim, in 1517. The Turks were conquered by European allies in WWI, and the land of Israel was taken over by the British, who were Christian. Like Saladin, they invited the Jews back. (Jews did not re-settle by an aggressive war.)

My point in recounting this history is that to figure out the rights and wrongs of every conquest and ruler you would take a lifetime of studying history.

And the bottom line is that if you are a Muslim fanatic, like Osama bin Ladin, you will want to reconquer Spain by force of arms as soon as possible. If you are a Christian fanatic, like the Crusaders, you will want right away to return all once-Christian lands to Christian rule. If you are a Jewish fanatic, you will want to expand the Jewish state to the size of the state of King Solomon.

By the way I shouldn't have said that religious fanaticism is the enemy of peace and prosperity, I should have said that fanaticism, period, is the enemy of peace and prosperity. Communist fanaticism in the 20th century was responsible for great slaughter of people, and it was anti-religious.

So if you want to kill people over their beliefs I think this is the enemy of peace and prosperity. If you want to be tolerant and let people raise their families in peace, worship as they choose, grow food, heal the sick, write poetry and music--and do type and calligraphy!--then I think you are on the right path.

William Berkson's picture

>> Temple was closed that day; Otherwise they would surely stop Jesus crucifixion,

The Dutch Jew you spoke didn't know the history so well. Jesus was crucified by the Romans, who were in power in Judea, as they saw Jesus as a threat to their power. The Jews could not stop the Romans from doing what they wanted. Jews tried to resume political power by armed rebellions against Rome in 70 CE and in 135 CE and were crushed both times.

[Some passages in the Christian Bible portray the Jews as to some degree complicit in the Roman execution of Jesus. This is a matter of great controversy and bitterness. The late Pope John Paul II clearly rejected the interpretation of Jewish responsibilty for Jesus' death.]

The traditional Jewish view is that prophesy ended after the return from exile in Babylonia (576 BCE). After that religious leaders were called scribes or teachers (rabbis). There was never a question about Jesus perhaps being a prophet, either for Jews or Christians. For Christians Jesus is the son of God. Jews and later Muslims rejected this fundamental point of Christianity. Muslims regard Jesus as a Prophet, but this is neither a Jewish nor a Christian view.

AzizMostafa's picture

Still investigating the Well-documented Holocaust,
1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?
2. What kind of Gas was used? Still unknown?
3. Were there gas-generating laboratories near the camps?
4. How was the gas pumped into the camps? Through Pipes.
5. How did the gassing take place?
6. How many mass graves discovered so far?
7. How well Camps were sealed to prevent gas leak out?
Accurate answers please.

dezcom's picture

The task of going back through history to find the numerous conquering, enslavements, murders, and reconquerings is far easier and less fruitful than the task of forgiving each-other our many heinous acts (their are many on all sides among all peoples in history). Pointing the finger of blame has been proven futile for centuries. The real job is what do we do now to stop all the senseless hatred and killing. Every retaliation begets another retaliation. This will never stop. Too often peoples perform murderous acts in the name of whatever god or religion they profess. This somehow helps them shed blame for their horrible deeds and absolve them of guilt.
We are all guilty, all to blame, not so much for the acts of our ancestors but for the acts yet to be committed which we do nothing to prevent. Isn't it time to stop all this? Have we learned nothing from the World's bloodstained history? Instead of pointing the finger of guilt, let us lift a finger to help stop all of this insanity.

Happy New Year.

ChrisL

pattyfab's picture

I REALLY don't think this forum is the appropriate place for this discussion. Aziz, if these questions really interest you I'm sure you can find the answers you're looking for either on line or in a library. William and others have already provided you with some links.

The gas was Zyklon B.
All Jews are true Jews (except IMO the so-called Jews for Jesus).

I'm done with this thread.

Peace on earth.

timd's picture

2. What kind of Gas was used? Still unknown?

http://www.answers.com/topic/zyklon-b

http://www.degussa-history.com/geschichte/en/predecessors/degussa_in_the...

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001

This is a pretty repellent investigation Aziz, but nothing you couldn't discover for yourself without taking this thread so far off-topic.
Tim

William Berkson's picture

>Accurate answers please.

There is a limit to the precision of the answers anyone has, but there is no doubt that massive numbers were murdered by gas. Massive numbers were also shot.

If you are interested in the details--and there is a great deal of detailed documentation--you can read any of the huge library of books on the subject.

You can also find a lot on the internet, but of course there is also a lot of hate-filled rubbish on the internet also.

Some good internet sites are:
http://www.ushmm.org/holocaust/ and
http://www.holocaust-history.org/

dan_reynolds's picture

>1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?

The number of those killed by being shot, or by other means than gas chambers in concentration camps, should not be minimized. The German army, as it advanced through Eastern Europe into the Soviet Union, was followed by the SS. The Germans organized militias in many of the occupied countries to assit their killing as well. All of this is well documented by the German government (even by the old East German government) and I suspect by the present-day governments of the respective countries involved, too. Certainly in Poland and in Russia, there are records.

Aziz, the line of questioning you put forth feels to me to be undermined by a misunderstanding of European history. For at least a thousand years, Europe was not the tolerant, open environment it is today. Wars and killings were common throughout its history, even its modern history. In seventy years, for instance, between 1870 and 1940, Germany invaded France three times.

Visit virtually any city center in Central Europe. Signs commenorate mass killings and burings throughout the past several centuries — not just of Jews but of too many minority groups. The first victims of the Crusades, just to mention one example, were not Muslims or Arabs or Turks or even Greeks (all of whom would eventually be terribly attacked over the centuries-long campaigns), but Jews living in Christian cities along the Rheinland. As the first crusading armies moved out of France along their way to Jerusalem, they decided to kill all enemies they could find, even the ones on their doorsteps, and their neighbors in their own cities!

The history of Europe is tragic and violent. Fortunately for us in the present and in the future, it was at least well documented. Trying to discredit the whole of history by nitpicking at details is distastefull, and it makes my heart sad to witness it.

dan_reynolds's picture

Also Aziz, the answers to all of your questions from your last post can be found in the testimonies given at the Nuremburg trials, and other trials conducted by the Allies after the conclusion of the war. The German governments, and the governments of their neighboring countries (West and East) also held trials for decades after the war's end. (In France, Klaus Barbie did not even come to trial until 1984; more info here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie)

Many of the defendants in these trials did not contest their actions in the war, the government, or the holocaust. Rather, they contested whether wat they had done was actually wrong (and occasionally whether or not the courts were valid). Examine the proceeds of these cases, and you will find your answers.

pattyfab's picture

Klaus Barbie died on the same day as Dr. Seuss. I remember they each had a full page obit in the Times, on facing pages. Good :: Evil.

Now I really am done with this thread!

AzizMostafa's picture

> My point in recounting this history is that to figure out the rights and wrongs of every conquest and ruler you would take a lifetime of studying history.

But we — Shia Moslems— see All the rulers you mentioned were on the wrong path because we declare the Oneness of God, reject any partners for Him; any personification (of Him) and any son (for Him). Every type of deviation from this, we condemn emphatically to destruction, like attributing partners, idolatry and the worship of man by man.

As such, we believe that God is Unique. He is the Creator of All existence. Due to this, believe only good and righteousness is created in the universe and it is man who at times misuses these means and potential. Therefore, man is the cause of evil and the source of deviation.

We believe that God is without a body or matter; rather He is far elevated above matter and material. According to this, He has no need
for a place or locality. Surely, He is in every place and cognizant of everything. He is closer to us that our own jugular vein. He sees
everything and hears every sound. In addition to that, there is no place for Him nor any habitat. He sees things and hears sounds not with the extremities on the eye nor the ear as we see and hear.

(We believe) that the past and the future, the near and the remote are the same for Him. That everything is present in his knowledge
without exception. The apparent and unknown are before him without exception, therefore. He even knows our thoughts and our intentions.

He encompasses (the Knowledge) of that which troubles our hearts, (that which) passes through our minds and hearts absolutely.

(We believe) that He is Unique in all of these perspectives. He has no Compositional parts, even His attributes, like Capability and Knowledge are the same as His Essence.

There is no beginning for His existence nor any end. He is eternally existing, therefore, His existence is infinite from all perspectives. His attributes never resemble the attributes of creation because man's attributes like ability and knowledge are limited. He is ever far exalted in His unlimited attributes.

In His power, (and in) non-other besides Him, is forgiveness of the sins of His servants. There is no intercession of anyone for anyone, even the Messenger of God except by His permission.

We believe that God never does any injustice to anyone of his servants. (We believe) the injustice of another either stems from ignorance or springs forth from impotence and God Glorified is He, is knowledgeable of all things and capable of all things. We believe in accordance with that that all of mankind is free in their will, not compelled to obedience or disobedience. (we believe) that their destinies are in their hands. They will decide for themselves without compulsion and He does not bear blame for the sin of another nor does anyone bear the sin or the error of another. Nor is man punished for the crimes of another.

William Berkson's picture

>were on the wrong path

Aziz, I'm afraid I haven't communicated my point to you. My point is that what is most important is not what people believe, but what they do.

Many people, and that includes rulers,ordinary people, Christians, Jews, Muslims--Shia and Sunni--and atheists have done beautiful, heroic deeds bettering the lives of those around them. And many people, Christians, Jews and Muslims and atheists have done vicious and wicked things.

No one should be punished or rewarded for his beliefs, but for his deeds. This principle allows us in Europe and the US to have tolerant societies in which Jew and Christian, Sunni and Shia can and do live side by side in peace.

By the way, everything in your statement of faith is consistent with Judaism, except perhaps where you say "Every type of deviation from this, we condemn emphatically to destruction". If you are talking about the hope that people will abandon what you regard as false beliefs, that is fine. If you are talking about killing people who disagree with you, I think it is a principle of intolerance, death and poverty.

Just to be clear, the tolerance I am advocating is a product of no religion, but of people fed up with religious wars, who created the European Enlightenment.

AzizMostafa's picture

The task of going back through history to find the numerous conquering, enslavements, murders, and reconquerings is far easier and less fruitful than the task of forgiving each-other our many heinous acts (their are many on all sides among all peoples in history). Pointing the finger of blame has been proven futile for centuries. The real job is what do we do now to stop all the senseless hatred and killing. Every retaliation begets another retaliation. This will never stop. Too often peoples perform murderous acts in the name of whatever god or religion they profess. This somehow helps them shed blame for their horrible deeds and absolve them of guilt.
We are all guilty, all to blame, not so much for the acts of our ancestors but for the acts yet to be committed which we do nothing to prevent. Isn’t it time to stop all this? Have we learned nothing from the World’s bloodstained history? Instead of pointing the finger of guilt, let us lift a finger to help stop all of this insanity.
___________________________________
I'm sure that is a very good idea. I have found that such debates, by their very nature, lead to nothing but ill feeling.
Surely by now, the human race should be smart enough to raise itself above such issues.
Hope that people will abandon false beliefs+stop creating false enemies.
Happy New Year and Special Thanks to ChrisL

gohebrew's picture

Very well said, Aziz.

As they say. "More power to you".

Typedog's picture

Peace Be With You!

Guerrizmo+Design

Syndicate content Syndicate content