Masthead for a newspaper

pablohoney77's picture

Formatting Error

The formatting code png_alreadyuploaded_t does not exist or cannot be used in this context.

dan's picture

Sounds like this site doesn't support png, try jpg or gif formats.

pablohoney77's picture

okay, i'll try this again...
our staff here at the Winslow Mail is in the process of giving our paper a facelift and i've been assigned the task of giving some guidance to this transformation. (that's kinda scary)
First on our list is to rework the mast head, the current one is pretty atrocious, i'll post it for you.
Current masthead
So my publisher wanted me to come up with several designs that we'll let our readers choose from to be the final nameplate. I was looking through old editions and found that the paper's header kept going back and forth between different blackletter designs and a more simple, serif design, lemme show you what i mean...Header from 1913
Nameplate from 1930
I really like this blackletter and am thinking of cleaning it up for one of my designs, another blackletter face i'd like to see head our paper is Agincourt (http://www.myfonts.com/Search?searchtext=agincourt) , but i'm worried that that may be a bit too fussy, but i'm a sucker for blackletter, so i need a more balanced opinion. For some other designs i need a face that's classy, simple, clean, but still has some personality. Any suggestions are welcome.
Evenutally i'm hoping we'll change our body type and the type for headers and would appreciate any suggestions there as well. I took a look at fontbureau's fonts for newspapers last nite and none of them really grabbed me and that's about as far as i've researched thus far. Anyhow, thanks for your interest and any suggestions/feedback.

beejay's picture

paul - this thread might be informative.

http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/13368.html

Also, if you go the blackletter route, take a look at the work of Jim Parkinson.

www.typedesign.com/

you can learn quite a bit by looking at the before
and after of some of his blackletter nameplate restorations.

And if Jim sees this of course, he can give you
some specific suggestions.

bj

hrant's picture

Some questions:
1) What is the target demographic of the paper?
2) What are the body and headline fonts in use?
3) Do you have authority to redo the whole typography, or just the masthead?

BTW, since this isn't a "big-city" paper, I wouldn't discount the not-classy but certainly comfy Cheltenham (in that 1913 masthead).

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

yeah i was looking at jim's work yesterday as a source of inspiration. thnx for pointing me in the right direction for a text face, any bright ideas on a good face for a the faceplate tho?

pablohoney77's picture

i knew i could count on you to pull though for me, hrant. lemme see if i can answer your questions adequately:
1) Our target demographic is the residents of Winslow, AZ and perhaps reaching into Joseph City (my hometown, yay!) Winslow is an old railroad town and i guess most of the citizenship either be classified as bluecollar or small business owners (in my estimation).
2) Currently our whole paper is set in Times (shudder!) and i think it's time that be remedied. Lemme upload this week's front page for ya.


application/x-stuffitThis week's front page
01 02-04-04.pdf.sit (1207.3 k)


3) abt the authority, we're a small operation here in Winslow. currently i work doing ad design for the Winslow Mail and our sister publication, the Reminder. but our editor (who currently does ALL the layout) is moving back to TX and there is some chance that i may become responsible for layout of the paper. No matter what happens, though, i'm adamant that we sever our ties with Times and find something fresh.
I kinda like the Cheltenham (thanks for the ID) mast myself, but would like to see something with a bit more sophistication. We are, however, trying to become "the paper for the people" and want it to have more of a hometown feel, so i don't want to do something too far removed from the people we're trying to reach. (did i put in enough inconsistencies there?) anyhow all suggestions are welcome. Thnx again!

dan's picture

The New York Times did a redesign using Cheltenham for the heads and subheads. I remember listening to the designer talk about the redesign on NPR this last summer. I think you need to divide the projects into small parts and address the biggest problem first. Don't try to fix everything at once or politics will rear its ugly head. Just some advice

hrant's picture

First of all, Paul, I really don't know jack. Stuff I say is based on observation and theory - I have no actual experience in this stuff. So be careful!

--

I couldn't load up the PDF. My system (Win-XP) can normally expand Stuff-It files, but it choked on this one - maybe just place the PDF as is.

What's making Cheltenham a little bit too small-town for your tastes might be the pudgy serifs. So guys, what's a font like Cheltenham with sharper serifs? Paul, what's your budget? In any case, I'd still suggest something honest, sturdy and generous like Cheltenham.

Replacing Times: Check out FontBureau's selection.

--

That NYT thing was puzzling: as much as I like Cheltenham, and as much as I realize how much that paper has relied on it in the past, it's really too provincial for NY. I think they didn't have the balls to break with the past.

BTW, I'd follow Daniel's advice on the piecemeal approach.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

the big problem here hrant is that i don't know jack either! ha ha
lemme just post the pdf, here goes...


application/pdfThis week's front page
FrontPage.pdf (1215.9 k)


as you can see, it just needs a total revamp: layout, fonts, headings, cutlines, subheads, ad nauseum...
The great thing is that we're a small operation and politics won't come into play too much (I HOPE!) as there are only 6-7 of us who actually are involved in putting out the paper (8-12 pages on average once a week) and unfortunately i don't think many of them care as much as i do about the finer details.
I don't know if we even have a budget to add typefaces to our library, but if worse came to worse, i'd seriously contemplate doing it piecemeal out of my own pocket. if so my budget would be very limited indeed (but i still think it'd be a good investment!)
I checked out fontbureau last nite and nothing really grabbed me, but maybe that was just because i was tired at the end of the day. i'll peruse their library again. thnx again

dan's picture

Paul, rather than a PDF make it into a gif or jpg, the PDF just isn't working.

Check out Font Bureau's Type Specimens Third Edition, you probably can find it at a local library. Its one thing to look at specimens online and definately a different experience seeing blocks of copy printed on paper.

I also suggest visiting newspaper sites online, like The New York Times, The New York Post. It could give you some ideas.

pablohoney77's picture

That's odd. I just downloaded the pdf with no problems. i'm just being plagued with technical difficulties on this string!
so hrant, were you suggesting Cheltenham for the nameplate or for body text or headlines or what? I looked at a lot of faces last night and the more I looked the more i felt that Cheltenham might be right for body copy or maybe even the nameplate (but my publisher balked when i showed here the 1913 nameplate maybe I could whip something up that makes her change her mind tho)
anyhow if you can't load the pdf, i'm sorry, but it's not essential, it just illustrated my point of how tired a paper looks with everything set in Times *yech!*
Winslow's library probably doesn't have any type specimen books, but i'll check. I'll try to find something somehwhere!
i'm starting to realize that this is going to be a lot of work! i can see the wisdom in breaking things down. thnx again for all yer help.

dan's picture

Paul, one more thought, don't use your own money for a company project. Write a proposal outlining the costs in terms of outside expenses (type) and internal expenses (your time). Place a dollar value on your time (be generious) and double the amount of time you think the project will take. This will place value on your project, plus it will show how little the cost of the type licenses really are.

pablohoney77's picture

i can understand the logic behind that one daniel, but i'm afraid i'd become a laughing stock (or worse yet) be stuck with a paper full of Times forever.

dan's picture

A proposal would show your editor and management you are serious about the redesign and might keep others from medaling with your ideas. I haven't met the designer yet that didn't have a client who suggested a logo his wife thought up while at the dinning room table.

aquatoad's picture

Hi Paul.

I will start with the familiar disclaimer that I've never designed a newspaper.

Some questions to ask: Is it a small town paper? Should it look like a small town paper? Do readers want it to look like a small town paper?

The implications of this are many. For example, the NYT doesn't have any advertising on the font cover. Should that be a priority? Even if there must be ads on the front page, I would lobby hard to remove them from the masthead.

On the masthead: You are dealing with people who are comfortable with 3D photoshopped type, a waving american flag, a local statue (i assume), and a big 50 cent. So moving back to a purely typographic masthead may be a stretch for them. I'd definitly loose the flag. And the large 50 cent (everyone in winslow knows that). If the statue is in fact a Winslow landmark, I would consider keeping it (or some other town landmark) and using it in a Winslow (statue) Mail configuration. Make it an engraved or scratchboard looking illustration, not a photograph

hrant's picture

I loaded the PDF fine.

> my publisher balked

What exactly was her objection? Maybe she wants to think she lives in The Big City instead of a small town... In which case show her the NYT with its Cheltenham! :-) If she's gonna insist on something more elegant and contemporary, then something like Swift would be great, yes. But I'd try to keep the feel homey, so maybe something like Cheltenham but not as mushy.

But I wouldn't use Cheltenham for body, it's too old and small on the body. Wait a second: I never thought I'd recommend the otherwise abominable ITC Cheltenham, but for news body (at a small enough size, like maybe 8 point) its obese x-height might just click. Maybe give that a shot.

For Cheltenham I was thinking more for the masthead. Here's the ITC "handtooled" in action:

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-cheltenham-handtooled/cheltenham-handtooled-itc/testdrive.html?s=Winslow+Mail&p=72

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-cheltenham-handtooled/cheltenham-handtooled-itc/testdrive.html?s=WINSLOW+MAIL&p=60

But if you want a more dignified look you need to look at the "real" non-ITC cuts (which cost more, though).

Hey, what do you think of this?
http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Winslow.gif
People have told me that my Patria caps have a Cheltenham feel, but the serifs (which actually need work, though) are "severe" wedges. If you like it I can give you an EPS of those settings. But the font itself (which is actually designed as a newspaper text face, in four weights with italics) will cost you... :-)

> I would lobby hard to remove [the ads] from the masthead.

Failing that at least don't allow color ads above the masthead line.

BTW, this might sound like blasphemy, but don't jeopardize the redesign by trying force a font sale. There are probably a lot of bundled fonts on your machine, a few of which (like maybe Nimrod*) would work better than Times.

* Which I once got from MyFonts for cheap.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

hey hrant, thanks again!
yeah the ITC version of Cheltenham was what i was looking at last night. I think most our body text is set at 10pts, you think it would work at that size?
We do have some decent alternatives already (perhaps) but i'm none too keen on the intricacies of the text face (i'm more of a display type of guy) Last night i was playing with that front page and and tried using Hoefler Text, Joanna, Georgia, Garamond, Galiard, Goudy just to see how these faces would look. Georgia is a personal favorite of mine (and it's based off of Miller isn't it?) But the rest i didn't really feal comfortable with, except maybe Hoefler Text.
About the ads... i totally agree that they should go below the nameplate, personally i would like to see no ads above the fold, but i don't know what the advertiser's contract is.
About the statue.. his name's "Easy" from the Eagle's song "Take It Easy" and the one line that says "I was standin' on a corner in Winslow, Arizona..." I was wanting to make him more graphic instead of having a photo of him, but again, my publisher doesn't want to see him in the nameplate (because of local politics, you know how it goes in a small town) But i may still do one mock up with him in there. Alternatively other graphic elements I could use are the railroad or perhaps Route 66.
Just for fun i'll upload a few more nameplates that i found while digging through our archives.The original in 1897
My publsiher liked this blackletter.
Nameplate 1927
i like the nostalgic feel of this one, although i'm not sure whether the train station is the heart of the city (maybe i should stick the local Wal-Mart in there instead, LOL)
Nameplate 1936
Nameplate 1942
A couple rail inspired motifs.
Oh and i forgot to mention, Winslow is on the border of the Navajo reservation and we're trying to appeal to that audience as well, however i don't really wanna see an overtly southwestern/native design scheme. keep the comments coming, i'm getting some good ideas!

hrant's picture

No, I think 10 point would make ITC Cheltenham really horsey, not like a newspaper. But try 9, with some extra leading.

Georgia and Miller are sisters, and both good for news. The former is free, but has no kerning. Look at Olympian too.

For the Amerind appeal, maybe blackletter would be a good choice after all. But something "strict" and honest, like a firm textura - or even a "jackboot grotesk" (like ITC Honda), if you don't mind some people calling you fascist.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

oooooh! i love honda and hadn't thought of that one! i think i saw it over the holidays in some magazine ads for some liquor. i'll hafta try that one out! and i'm sure you already realize i'm daft, so i'll go ahead and ask "what does horsey mean?"

hrant's picture

"Horsey" is a really high-end, like stratospheric design critique term. ;-)
I guess it means with parts that are too big, like looking at a horse's head through a macro lens.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

okay so i just ordered Font Bureau's specimen book just so i could take a good look at their faces in actual printed samples. i figgered it'd be a good investment.
thanks for the feedback tiffany, i think i've decided agincourt is a little to flashy for our small town, but i'll still probably work something up with it just to throw it out there and see what my coworkers think. I agree about not using Joanna, i think it's a beautiful face, but not really suitable for body text (but i just had to try it, even though i knew it wouldn't work. I'm a fan of Gill, what can i say!) by the way hit a caf

hrant's picture

Good move on the FB book - I've bought it too - worth every penny.

BTW, here's a crazy thought: What about Victor Hammer's stuff for the masthead?
http://www.myfonts.com/person/hammer/victor/

As for the headline face, it really depends a lot on the body face you choose, so try to decide those at the same time.

hhp

dan's picture

I'm also glad you bought the FB book, its a good layout and gives you a real feel for the color of text fonts.

William Berkson's picture

Paul, I don't know anything about newspaper design, except that it is a whole art in itself.

If you have any budget to buy some fonts, I would call Fontbureau and talk to whomever is their resident expert on newspapers. The 'Readibility' series - 9 different fonts each with a range of weights - is specifically for newspapers, and something designed to purpose is probably going to end up looking a lot better. They have a PDF of it you can download it and print it out, and have the phone number for this on their site. I'm sure they can clue you in on what will work for your paper stock, press, budget, etc.

The Gerard Unger stuff is also a great idea, and designed and proven for newspapers. You could e-mail him and maybe even phone. Start on his web site www.gerardunger.com

After talking or e-mailing both you will have a way better idea of what your options are.

By the way, Cheltenham for text is a terrible idea IMHO. Its ascenders are way too tall for newspaper text. Fine for Titles, as the NYT uses it; it is narrow, dark and long extenders - that fits the narrow columns they use.

hrant's picture

William, you just reminded me:
Paul, you need to ask FB for their special-purpose type specimen booklet of news faces printed on actual news stock (with its typical ink gain). It's a wonder, and very different than the glossy rendering in their general specimen book.

BTW, the Cheltenham being mentioned as a possibility for text is the ITC one with the obese x-height (since we're talking small point sizes), not any of the authentic small-x-height ones.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

thnx for the input william. i was just printing up a few tests for myself just now ITC Cheltenham vs. Times. If you wanna take a look at it here is what i threw together.


application/pdfTest
CheltvsTimes.pdf (329.8 k)


i'd have to agree with you hrant, it does look better at 9pts then at 10. However, I'm afraid it might come across too heavy on newsprint and probably isn't transparent enough to work for text. Ah well, i'll put that one on the back burner for now.

kentlew's picture

Paul --

For information about the Font Bureau's offerings specifically geared toward newspapers, go to the Newspaper section of their site at http://www.fontbureau.com/newspapers/.

This Products subsection includes the Readability series mentioned by William above. The PDF can be downloaded from http://www.fontbureau.com/newspapers/readability.pdf. However, you should know up front that for the fonts in this series, FB requires a minimum license for 25 workstations. This aspect of their business is geared toward medium and large newspaper operations, not small-town weekly papers like yours, unfortunately.

Nevertheless, the Newspaper section also features some of their more readily available Retail fonts which they feel work well for newspaper use. This information will at least give you ideas, even if it doesn't offer solutions within your budget.

Best of luck.

-- K.

kentlew's picture

P.S. I just noticed that, oddly enough, FB has put Whitman on the newspaper font list. Although I've seen it work well in magazines, I would not actually recommend it for newspaper text. A while ago, at their request, I did some preliminary explorations of some condensed headline versions, which haven't gone anywhere yet, and one day I may try to create a newspaper text version. But the current designs aren't really meant for news text at all.

William Berkson's picture

Ok, here's some free amateur opinion, probably worth what it costs, based on your PDF of the front page.

I don't think fonts are your main problem. Times New Roman was eventually changed by the Times itself, but it a very good face, if your paper is not too rough. (The sharp points on the serifs melt if the paper is not good enough, I understand.)

I suspect you can make the paper look a lot better even with Times as the body text. First, I would look at how the Times (of London) itself used to use it for a clue.

I suspect that you have too much leading in the body text, and that tightening it would make give the paper more even 'color' and a more professional look. (Also, your font size may be too big for the narrow columns.) Second, Times bold isn't the best as a headline font, but if you use it, I suspect it should be tracked negatively for large headlines, so you get a bolder, more punchy look.

Finally, all the centered text in the blue box on the left is a definite no-no, as it is way less readable, and there should never be over a few lines centered.

I would think that with a new masthead and headline font, and improvement of the typography, you could make the whole thing look quite good, even with Times.

Another more radical revision to think about is having fewer columns. I believe the NYT has the six columns. Narrow columns as less desirable from the point of view of readability, but that way NYT can start a lot of stories on the front page, with headlines - in the narrow, tall Cheltenham. However, you have your headlines going across a number of columns, so that the many columns doesn't particularly help you.

As I said, I am just blathering about this stuff without knowledge, but anyway these are the kinds of questions you can ask about revising your present design.

There is a Society for Newspaper Design and on their site they have a searchable list of books on newspaper design, including books of award winning designs. If you call them they can probably tell you of a whole division of small town weeklies, and you can talk to your colleagues who are in a similar situation, and get practical, valuable advice.

pablohoney77's picture

Thnx for all your suggestions, folks, a little more insight into our opperation (just fyi) we're small, really small, at most we'd need a licence for 5 workstations, at least two, but i figger most licences cover at least 5 stations, so i'm safe there.
william i totally agree with you that there are more problems than just fonts. personally i'd like to take all ads out the face plate. my publisher wants a big, bold headline each week that runs across the page, i'm thinking i would like to widen the leftmost column for quick reads and weather and contact info and an index, that would narrow the columns to the right, i'd definately do something about the leading, and there's no way i'm sticking with times for the body text and definately not for headlines, but then i'm getting WAAAAAAY ahead of myself. i've been thinking i should talk to my sister who does page layout for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer *lightbulb goes on* but we have conflicting schedules and i haven't been able to get a hold of her yet this week. then i can talk shop with her about body type, headlines, layout, etc. for now i'm gonna just worry about the nameplate. thank you all for your insight and for pointing out useful resources. i'm gonna go start drafting some heads for the paper!

hrant's picture

I think ITC Cheltenham might actually work for news text (8-9 pt), but only if you track it a bit looser - which will make it lighter too. And note that Times is actually a bit light for news in today's repro conditions (especially at smaller sizes). So don't conclude that ITC Cheltenham is too dark based on a comparison with Times, or seen at 24 point, or from laser prints (which make type darker).

(I can't believe I'm defending that monstrosity! But I guess any font has its use... Even Helvetica.)

> FB has put Whitman on the newspaper font list.

That makes no sense.

hhp

dan's picture

Paul one more thought, in any publishing business the editors know how many words they need to fill a certain amount of space. So your editor has a feel for managing the writers telling them to write to a certain number of words. If you change the text face make sure the characters per pica is almost exactly the same as Times or you might get some resistance.

hrant's picture

Daniel, good point. And Times isn't easy to beat. In fact the best way to beat it is to use a WIDER font with a bigger x-height, so you can set it smaller and with less -total- leading. The CPP will be worse than Times for a give point size, but the overall surface area used by the other font in a small point size will be less (without losing on apparent size), at least for news text (which has a lot of linebreaks - which negates the space savings of narrow designs like Times).

BTW, check out these:

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/lydian/bold/testdrive.html?s=WINSLOW+MAIL&p=72

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/lydian/bold/testdrive.html?s=Winslow+Mail&p=72

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/klang/mt/testdrive.html?s=WINSLOW+MAIL&p=72

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/klang/mt/testdrive.html?s=Winslow+Mail&p=72

hhp

dan's picture

Excellent point Hrant. As long as the area is the same, the characters per pica doesn't matter.

marcox's picture

Willam is right -- you've got much bigger challenges than typeface choice here. His recommendation of the SND is a good one. You might also check out the work of Garcia Media. They've redesigned newspapers around the world.

http://www.garcia-media.com/NeHome.asp

And their creative director, Ron Reason, has his own site, with lots of useful info on newspaper redesigns.

http://www.ronreason.com/

pablohoney77's picture

yeah i checked out ronreason, good site, i plan on using some of his stuff on his site to use for ammo on switching from times. too bad i'm sure we could never afford such a service! my sis sent me a couple of her pages from the seattle PI to look at, and tipped me off that most papers let you download the front page as a pdf. so i'm gonna look at a few this week. she also said that if you're doing a redesign you should do it all at once which is a great idea in theory. i've got a month to get everything together. i'm leaning towards miller for text, and i'd love to get Parkinson's Azuza and Frutiger for headlines and then use rockwell for section headings. but nothing's real solid in my mind yet still figgering out what i wanna do... anyhow i'll post some nameplates once i get a chance to work on em (i was shoveling dirt for my sis all weekend) so take a look a little later this week.

pablohoney77's picture

for anyone interested, my sister tipped me off on a few websites that have their front page available in PDF format on their webpages. here's what she mailed me:
Here are some newspaper sites that have PDFs of their front page:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/frontpage/
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/PDF/frontpage.pdf
http://www.timesunion.com/news/frontpage/
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/page1/index.html
http://www.lmtonline.com/news/news.htm
http://www.mysanantonio.com/
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/pageone/scan/index.html (this is a jpg image)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/ct_today.pdf
i guess a lot of newspapers do this, including our big paper in the state http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/frontpages/ but this is probably old news to most of you.

anyhow, i was breeding times and cheltanham the other day and this is what would happen if they had a baby g:

does anyone know what hoops one has to jump through to get permission to go ahead and tinker with a font (in my case ITC Cheltenham) I'm wondering if I could lighten it up just a bit (because our printing conditions aren't always optimal: our last few papers have been very heavy on the ink) anyhow, that's my news for now.</font>

hrant's picture

Hey, nice "g"! :-)

Tell your sister about this gem:
http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/
Hundreds of front pages in PDF, from around the world, updated daily.

Modification:
If the EULA says you can't do it, it's illegal. But I would encourage you to ignore such a clause - it's a base scare tactic. As long as your mod stays in your hands only, I say have a blast.

http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/24752.html

Technically however, it's not as easy as it might seem to maintain the quality of the original, so be careful. And if you're going to do a minor adjustment, make sure it's worth it, since you can only really tell what you exactly need by factoring EVERYTHING in: the point size, the paper, the ink, reader preferences... everything.

Oh, and look carefully at the "grading" in FontBureau's [high-end] newspaper faces.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

WOW! i can definately use that resource, thnx hrant. thanks also for the compliment on my little g, i think she's cute! and thanks for the warning. i'm not seriously considering using a creation of my own for our paper, but i just love to tinker with things, till i get bored of em. we're supposed to go take a tour of our printing faclity one of these days so i should learn lots from that experience.
this weekend i bought a copy of the elements of typographic style and have been enjoying that. maybe some of my book orders are at the post office today, i should run over there! thnx again for all yer help, guys. you're such a great resource, i must say.

pablohoney77's picture

they say great minds think alike, but what would your purpose have been (i'm curious)

pablohoney77's picture

okay, so here's what i did. i cleaned up the original nameplate from 1897. pretty much it's a straightforward literal take on the design. take a look at the pdf and give me yer best criticism!


application/pdfmy nameplate
Winslow Mail.PDF (81.4 k)


i'm not so sure about the pointed barbs on the lc h and lc n, but i'm not sure what a better solution there would be. i'm definately going to change the top serifs of the l's with something similar either to OldEnglish or Marriage Text, (i'm leaning toward Old English on the right) anyhow, lemme know what you think.
comparison

shreyas's picture

The lc w sticks out to me - the little ascending tail you have doesn't match with the swashy bits of the other lcs. I liked the '27 w particularly, and maybe you can incorporate the pointed barb in the third stem, the way that the '42 w almost does... though that's not precisely authentic.

I think you're leaning a good way with the 'l's; do you plan to do the same with the h?

dan's picture

Paul I don't know how far along you are but the spacing between the letters is inconsistant. Tight in some areas and way to loose in others.

pablohoney77's picture

Kent, so as not to hijack Ben's post, I'll put my response here. Yer quite right about Whitman & Bliss as a good alternative to Joanna & Gill Sans. I see a strong resemblance between these pairs, but it looks like your face is much less "horsey" than Joanna. You brought Whitman up earlier in this post of mine, and i'm just curious as to why you don't think it'd work for newspaper (I'm still trying to learn what makes a good paper text face and what doesn't, so some commentary would be enlightening). I'll hafta remember Whitman for future projects tho.
Oh and so's ya'll know... We had a corporate shake up th'other week and I kept my job, yay! In a month or so I'll be doing all the layout and design for the Winslow Mail (scary huh?) Now that I've got the name plate slapped on there I'm gonna start pushing for better text fonts. I'd really like to use Miller and am putting some pressure on my new publisher to make it happen for me. Last week I used Folio Bold condensed for our main story's headline, but I'm not sure that that's exactly what I want for that type of thing. Another Headline font I'd like to get is Azuza by Parkinson http://typedesign.com/fonts/azuzam.html.
So what does everybody think of this combo: Miller for text, Azuza for headlines and (Your Suggestions Go Here) for a good, solid, sans for main headlines.
P.S. Anyone know of any good books that deal with newspaper design (I checked out your link, William, but it gave me too many suggestions for books, i'd like to have 2-5 good recommendations to look at) I picked up a copy of The Essentials of Typographic Design, but I haven't gotten that far into the book to know if it'll help me (directly) in this area.
Anyhow, thnx again for listening!

hrant's picture

Joanna is horsey?! We must be using the term very differently.

From what I gather, to his credit Kent doesn't think Whitman can be used for news setting. I think it's great for some book work as well as magazines.

Azuza is one of my most favorite recent fonts, and I think it would go great with a news version of Whitman. Miller of course is a superb design as well, and seems like it would pair very well with Azuza. BTW, Paul, did you get my private email concerning Patria? It's a news face, and might work well for you too.
http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/29/805.html

I myself haven't found a book dealing specifically with news fonts, but check out all the wonderful stuff on news typography written by Paul Hunt.

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

hey Hrant, no, i didn't get your email :^( I'll hafta take a look at Patria. I guess Joanna isn't really horsey, I just wanted to make sure you were reading! I was just trying to say that Whitman takes the beauty of Joanna and softens it up by turning the slab serifs to wedges, i think those slab serifs of Joanna's are it's only real drawback to making it more versatile. So does Whitman not work for news just because of the stock?
In the way of books, I'm not looking for something on fonts so much as something that would give me some guidelines for good layout practices.
But i must say i am disappointed you didn't suggest something for a complimentary sans! thnx for yer comments, hrant, i always 'preciate yer opinion.

hrant's picture

> i think those slab serifs of Joanna's are it's only
> real drawback to making it more versatile.

Note however that slabs become less slabby (?) if there's any ink gain, like in a newspaper!
But Joanna is no news font anyway.

> So does Whitman not work for news just because of the stock?

Although Whitman doesn't have any trapping (which would help small sizes on bad stock maintain fidelity), the main reason it's better for book and magazine work than for news is its modest x-height; a secondary reason is its lightish color. News point sizes are on the small end, and those require bigger bodies that are darker (as well as wider and looser).

That said, I think Whitman is a natural for adaptation to news setting: it has a superb balance of warmth and neutrality, plus great readabilty.

Companion sans: maybe look at stuff by Unger and de Groot.

--

Patria: I think you might be pleasantly surprised by its combination of austerity, readability, and setting economy, especially for the point size range you're looking at. Since I've yet to see it in actual news setting action (high speed presses, bad stock, etc.) we might be able to work out some sort of trial scheme - just let me know.

hhp

kentlew's picture

Paul --

Regarding Whitman and newspapers: Hrant pretty much summed it up. The proportions are all wrong. Too much of the body is given over to the ascenders and descenders. This is primarily what marks it as a book typeface. There are also a few technical considerations, like various details which would become ink traps on newsprint. I don't necessarily agree with Hrant about the wider and looser part (but that's a legitimate debate).

Advice that I received recently on this very topic: "My advice about newspaper types is that to remember they are set in very narrow columns. So think dense compact lines. But not condensed or squeezed. It is tricky."

I recently spent a little time on a rough draft of a Whitman News for newspaper text. I wasn't completely satisfied with the results. The project has been put back on a back burner.

Coincidentally, however, a newspaper customer has requested development of some condensed display weights of Whitman for headlines.

-- Kent.

hrant's picture

>> "think dense compact lines."

But does the density have to be horizontal?

BTW, great news (!) on your news efforts!

hhp

pablohoney77's picture

whew! i'm glad the work day's over! (finaly) Thanks hrant & kent for the great insight into what makes a good news face. i think i'm starting to understand...
hrant, what would be your suggestions for a trial scheme? I'm game for it whatever it is. just lemme know.

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