WARNING: Not Type Related Topic

rs_donsata's picture

I, as most mexicans have family working in the United States, so I decided to make this post as a mean to support them asking all north american typophiles to reject and help to stop the HR 4437 bill.

There are about 41 million hispanic inmigrants working in the united states, doing an honest life trough hard work on duties most north americans are not willing to do. It's true many of them (about 11 million) reached the United States ilegally, but it is also true that ilegal workers are hired under very unfair conditions like up to 14 or 16 hour working days, not medical or social assitence, unjustified dismissal and very low payments.

Trying to turn this people into criminals is not fair, and is not going to fix the problem, it´s just going to make it worse. A wall in the desert is not going to stop illegal inmigration and treating people like animals (denying medial assitance) is the real crime. There are also some illegal north americans in mexico (many of them in San Miguel de Allende, about 40 km from here), and I can assure you they are well treated.

The real solution is to have a fair treat for temporal inmigrant workers, because we all know you need the workers and we need the work, this radical position is an hipocresy that only benefits the ones who explode and violate the human rights of workers.

pattyfab's picture

I'll second that and add that unless you are 100% Native American you are no doubt the descendent of immigrants who may or may not have come here legally. It makes me crazy the entitlement that so many Americans seem to feel over what is truly an accident of birth. I am so profoundly unimpressed by my countrymen at this point that I welcome some new blood!

Chris Keegan's picture

If you want to live in America, you need to come here legally. PERIOD.

dezcom's picture

Héctor,

My family came here from Greece in early 20th century. We are a nation of immigrants who all came here for a chance to live a better life. In the process, we made this country what it is today (for better or worse). Each new generation of immigrants has something new to offer and should be welcomed as much as all that came before. I welcome your family and any other to become part of us.

ChrisL

Nick Shinn's picture

you need to come here legally.

If that was the case Chris, wouldn't the law have been been more firmly enforced?
The theory is that a large underground workforce enables US businesses to compete with cheap labour in China etc., so the situation is allowed to continue.

canderson's picture

I agree, with Nick. We've sent some very mixed messages to people entering this country illegally. That said, one of the things that makes the US great is that, for the most part, we obey the law. Personally, I welcome people who want to come here to adopt our laws and customs, and pay taxes. I also feel that its important for people who live and work here to vote, so I'm not sure I like the 'guest worker' idea.

We also might want to think about why so many people want to leave Mexico.

fontplayer's picture

I wonder if you can answer honestly how Mexico treats Guatemalans that are illegally crossing that border?

Fact is, the hypocrisy is astounding.

I almost wish this topic could be deleted, since if I get going on this, some politically correct people will have their day ruined.

dezcom's picture

We have to ask ourselves if we would have welcomed our own grandparents or great grandparents here to this country? Someone before us did so we should welcome the newest generation to start a life for their grandchildren-to-come.

ChrisL

(Sorry Nick, I see you now meant the other Chris)

pattyfab's picture

It's similar to the debate about adoption - prospective adoptive parents are put thru the ringer for children they really want (and can provide for) and yet any idiot can bear a child or two or three and end up being a drain on our resources.

The harsh anti-immigration bills will threaten parents who have children who were born here and are therefore American citizens, and also a lot of law abiding tax payers.

I ain't saying there shouldn't be limits and regulations but that they should be humane and reasonable.

I'd be quite happy in fact to kick out some of our homegrown folks at this point, starting with the current admin.

Chris Keegan's picture

Nick, one of the reasons the U.S. government has not cracked down on illegal immigration is that they will lose voters by taking up that issue. Most of the jobs supposedly performed by illegals are service industries, not manufacturing, so they aren't in direct competition with China. This isn't about immigration, this is about illegal immigration. We are a nation of immigrants, and anyone is welcome in America as long as they are here legally, obey the laws, pay taxes, etc. Businesses that hire illegals should be fined. Workers deserve a fair wage, and while illegals may be making more money here, they still aren't being paid a decent wage by American standards.

dezcom's picture

"...how Mexico treats Guatemalans that are illegally crossing that border"

Governments are different than people. Because one government has a policy which we may not approve of, does not allow us to apply that same logic to our own. I don't speak for my government and it rarely speaks for me. The U.S. is far from the only country with failings and it isn't even the worse of the lot. That does not give us license to say, "Oh, well, we are still doing better than Rwanda, so what we do is OK until we do worse than the others."

ChrisL

pattyfab's picture

True enough but aren't these new laws designed to keep out a certain type of immigrant? Read: not white, or not white enough.

If laws were designed in order to make it easier to obtain legal immigration and then pay taxes, vote, etc instead of creating criminals out of hard working citizens we'd all be better off.

fontplayer's picture

I’d be quite happy in fact to kick out some of our homegrown folks at this point, starting with the current admin.

Which is where much of the support is rooted. The Democratic party sees it as a way to garner votes and are milking it for all it's worth.

So many who don't live near the border don't know that many Mexican women sneak across the border to have babies here, so they can have the benefits. When people are coming, not to be assimilated, but to simply milk the system, this is a big difference from the immigration issues of previous generations.

pattyfab's picture

> Governments are different than people. Because one government has a policy which we may not approve of, does not allow us to apply that same logic to our own.

Don't get me started. How many corrupt or dictatorial governments has the US propped up or helped install because it served our "national interest"? And then we try to export our "values" abroad through force instead of example - and wonder why we're pissing everybody off.

How can ANYBODY justify Guantanamo by any standard?

pattyfab's picture

> The Democratic party sees it as a way to garner votes and are milking it for all it’s worth.

The Democrats SHOULD milk this for all it's worth. I only wish they could figure out how to get more mileage from the unbelievable incompetence, corruption and misguided policies both foreign and domestic of this admin.

And am I the only one here who grew up thinking the national anthem started "José can you see?"

dan_reynolds's picture

All nations have the right to set and protect their own borders, and to regulate who comes in.

However, the United States of America is also the same nation that once agreed that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

What is morally untenable, to me is not that people come to the US to seek a better life (illegally, if necessary), but rather that so many Americans seem to be willing to look the other way while individuals living in their midst are mistreated and paid substandard wages.

We talk about all the individuals being here illegally. How come more people don't talk about the individuals, companies, and corporations who pay these immigrants illegally-low wages? That is criminal behavior! That should be stopped. In fact, if these crimes would be stopped, the illegal immigration issue might flare-down a bit as well. But no one seems interested in that dialogue. We want to have it both ways as Americans… cheap goods and services, and only legal immigration.

People come to the US because they know that they will have a better life. Illegal immigrants know that millions of Americans are willing to pay them under the table.

As a caveat, it should also be pointed out that the US allows more legal immigrants across its borders than any other nation in the world. But then again, even these people are not treated well. I live as a foreign national in another country, and my situation clearly cannot be compared with that of those who have come from Central America to the US, but I have had a few hurdles of my own to jump through here in Germany. Nevertheless, I feel ashamed when I hear what problems my government back home puts *legal* immigrants through. In comparison with that, my problems are nothing. Since September 11, it seems as if all immigrants to the US are viewed as potential terrorists, people who would rather tear the country down rather than build it up, in order that they get to have a better life, too. Maybe it would be for the best if we as Americans would totally rethink how we thought about immigration altogether so that we can finally be honest with ourselves again.

Just my opinion.

fontplayer's picture

only wish they could figure out how to get more mileage from...,

Because they have nothing better to offer they flounder around looking ridiculous. And if most Americans who are Democrat because their parents were, knew how far left the party really is these days...well, actually they are starting to find out, and it doesn't look good. My wife's best friend is bailing because of your stance on the border issue.

So I have to remember to be delighted you think the way you do, because it is working out all right, I think.

Btw, you avoided the more relevant point of my previous post, I see.

I can't believe politics aren't off-limits here, since it tends to be too emotional a subject and can lead to hard feelings.

dan_reynolds's picture

apropos Guantanamo… rereading the Declaration of Independence for my last post, I found this:
"For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:"

Hmm. For the Founders, these actions of King George warranted revolution!

And I thought *I* was conservative… :(

terryw's picture

....how far left the party really is these days…

This diagram should demonstrate the average.

L..................................................Center....................................................R
................................................Dem...........................................Rep............

Chris Keegan's picture

Dan, very thoughtful post. And you are absolutely correct that the companies and corporations that use illegal labor should be held accountable. People are talking about it, at least where I am.

fontplayer's picture

This diagram should demonstrate the average.

Which only proves the polarization occuring these days, since I would make the same chart the other way around.

dan_reynolds's picture

It all depends on where you define the center.

dan_reynolds's picture

People are talking about it, at least where I am.

I don't believe that Congress will take action on that issue. I wish that they would, but I just don't believe it anymore.

fontplayer's picture

It all depends on where you define the center.

Reality, I think we can agree on that, but it is also where the problem lurks.

Idealism can work great in design, so I shouldn't be surprised that typophile would be dominated by liberals. Even I wish I could live in La-la-landia where there were no borders, everyone was as concerned for my welfare as I am (and visa-versa) and there were no people who want to blow me up because I am an infidel, and all things really are equal for everyone. For starters, I woulda been be more handsome.
: )

Si_Daniels's picture

> Even I wish I could live in La-la-landia

I'll chip in for your ticket - providing of course they don't have internet access over there ;-)

Cheers, Si

British Citizen, US Permanent Resident, ATypI country delegate for the USA

rs_donsata's picture

Patty and Crhis, thanks a lot.

I really think that a temporal worker program would be a fine solution, it makes legal and easier to control and regulate something that is already happening in a very chaotic and unfair way and that will not be stopped with a wall and a threat.

It would also make clear for the people that goes to work there that they must return to their homes after certain time.

Héctor

dan_reynolds's picture

It would also make clear for the people that goes to work there that they must return to their homes after certain time.

I don't like the idea of a Guest Worker program. I'm in favor of real immigration. Allow more people in, and let them become citizens if they want to. I'm afraid that Guest Workers will be seen as second-class residents. That's not fair.

Decades ago, European nations created Guest Worker programs. The workers came, but they were not guests. They stayed, had children, and now their children have had children. But too many of these residents are still treated like they don't belong, even though many of them are just as German, Dutch, or French as the German, Dutch, or French themselves… not culturally, but before the eyes of the law.

fontplayer's picture

I’ll chip in for your ticket - providing of course they don’t have internet access over there ;-)

That's the spirit. I guess I didn't think that one through. If it existed, it would be where San Fransico's bounderies are, and I can't afford to live there. But if it were on the ballot to change their name to La-la-landia, I would be their biggest supporter.
: )

Si_Daniels's picture

> If it existed, it would be where San Fransico’s bounderies are

Ah, that's a bit too close to Seattle. Sorry, my offer is off the table. ;-)

Cheers, Si

canderson's picture

I don't want a guest worker program either. If any group lacks the right to vote, they will surely be treated poorly. Also, immigrants need access to education and other services if they want to get ahead. When people have a stake in making our country work, everyone benefits.

fontplayer's picture

When people have a stake in making our country work, everyone benefits.

Ok, to clarify: One problem is many don't have an interest in making it work. They don't know or care what the people here think, or they wouldn't violate our laws. In general, they are the uneducated class, and are here to take advantage of our system, which they don't have in Mexico. Read the end of my post below for more details on this.

dan_reynolds's picture

The problem is they don’t have an interest in making it work.

That is a very simplistic point of view. Can one really make generalizations about a group of people 11 million large? Think about how many countries don't even have 11 million people living inside them… 11 million is too big a number for blanket statements like that.

terryw's picture

Dan, don't you get Fox News in Germany?

dan_reynolds's picture

Nope, at least I don't. Is that a bad thing?

canderson's picture

The problem is they don’t have an interest in making it work.

I don't agree either. Some immigrants don't ever completely assimilate, but their kids do. Its important to provide the same basic opportunities for everyone.

rs_donsata's picture

Well, that's a better response than I would have waited, a guest worker program isn't really the best thing to do as pointed out, but maybe it's a short term acceptable solution, full citizenship of course would be the best thing to get.

Héctor

fontplayer's picture

it’s a short term acceptable solution, full citizenship of course would be the best thing to get.

I guess one big problem I have with the whole thing is do we ever draw a line? Is the American taxpayer expected to be Mexico's welfare system, with no limit? As a rule we don't get the cream of the crop sneaking across the border. There are parts of OC where you can see all these little Mexican baby machines cranking them out as fast as they possibly can. (partly because of the Catholic beliefs on birth-control, I imagine), while all their brood is orbiting them as they cross at the intersections

Meanwhile I can't seem to get ahead here, even though I am making what some people think is decent money. We can't afford to buy a house, let alone provide for retirement at my current income levels.

If there is no limit to letting the poor of Mexico flood into California, then no amount of taxation will ever be enough.

If the bleeding-hearts are so concerned about the poor Mexicans crossing our border looking for opportunity, they should be ultra-concerned about the Guatemalans, who are even worse off, who are raped, have their money stolen, usually by soldiers or police. Since they have no right to be there, no one cares how they are treated.

Check this AP news story

Vincente Fox's hypocrisy reaches new levels of irony.

Please keep in mind I am married to a Mexican citizen who feels much the same way I do, only she is more cynical about the Mexican government. And I love much of the Mexican culture and music. I probably have the biggest collection of trios, rondallas, and female ranchera singers of any white person in California. Lucha Villa, Chelo (Mejor Me Voy, Si Ya Te Vas: Si algun dia las penas de la vida te hacen daño, no pretendas buscarme, etc.), Lola Beltran, Flor Silvestre, Beatriz Adriana (echele ganas) etc. are the part of my music collection I would grab if the house were burning down. Too much effort went into getting them all, and many are out of print.

So I can say I love Mexicans, I don't don't think I should be taken advantage of by the ones who don't respect our laws.

There are also some illegal north americans in mexico (many of them in San Miguel de Allende, about 40 km from here), and I can assure you they are well treated.

From my experience, it would only be because they have money. I have family in Mexico, I have traveled in Mexico, and I know how it works. Please don't paint a picture as if ghetto occupants started sneaking into Mexico and down to San Miguel de Allende, they would be welcome with open arms. I have been in San Miguel. I bought some nice Huichol art there, fortunately before the price started skyrocketing.

The city is very pretty. And I imagine they want to keep it that way.

And another thing, why in the flying blankety-blank shouldn't we be able to decide our own laws, or enforce the ones we have without extortion from people with no right to be here. The whole thing is ludicrous.

Now to balance my position, I am in favor (as I think is a majority of Americans) of a program that legally allows workers to be here. There is no doubt they make a valuable contribution.

But not without restrictions or guidelines.

And now a story we personally know about. A Mexican women (cousin of a friend of my wife) crossed the border illegally, then started having babies here (now she is at four), so now all the kids are US citizens, and she is getting benefits; Money for a place to stay (using forged Social Security docs) and since the fourth son is deaf, she is given money for special education, and hearing aids. She doesn't work, because if she did she wouldn't be elegible for all the benefits.

And I could go on for quite a while about things like this, because of the work my wife does. She is trusted by many of them to hear the details of all the stories the working ones have concerning their relatives.

All courtesy of the unknowing Californian taxpayers.

And Ricardo, you make a valid point about my wording which I have amended above.

Ah, that’s a bit too close to Seattle. Sorry, my offer is off the table. ;-)

Hey, I have asked to be transferred to develop that area for my company. I'll look you up if it happens. From the conversations I overheard at Starbucks in Enumclaw, you guys could use a few more people there whose political viewpoints aren't in the clouds.
; )

Ricardo Cordoba's picture

The problem is they don’t have an interest in making it work. They don’t know or care what the people here think, or they wouldn’t violate our laws. In general,they are the uneducated class, and are here to take advantage of our system, which they don’t have in Mexico.

It's always nice to read open-minded, non-judgmental assessments such as this, in which things are neither black nor white. ;-)

pattyfab's picture

Dennis, I think it's kinda interesting you'd choose to live in SF where you'd be surrounded by -horrors! - homosexuals and other people whose viewpoints are as you put it "in the clouds". I'm not surprised to see you're in Orange County, I have relatives there and know what the politics are like. Luckily California is a big state.

>In general, they are the uneducated class, and are here to take advantage of our system

Our country is in the sorry state it's in because our OWN citizens are uneducated, xenophobic and only interested in protecting their own interests, not to mention taking advantage of the system.

For the record I'm a Democrat not because my parents are (altho I'm proud that they are and raised me in the bluest district of the bluest city in the country) but because they are right now the party of morality and values. Invading another country for oil (and lying about why) and giving tax breaks to the rich, not to mention devastating the environment and trying to govern this country with a Christian form of Shariah (can't they see the hypocrisy!) does not strike me as moral, or frankly, Christian at all. And as a Jew I find the sancimonious false piety of the religious right both alienating and terrifying.

Thank god for Jon Stewart.

fontplayer's picture

And as a Jew I find the sancimonious false piety of the religious right both alienating and terrifying.

Same here. But among the Christians I know are some of the staunchest supporters of Israel that I know of. And now it is becoming clear we share a common enemy that wants to wipe us from existance.

Granted the right you speak of probably wants to wipe them from the earth also. This is why it is increasingly clear that the world needs a benevolent dictator who is omnipotent, and can put the sanctimonius pious bastards of both sides in their place, so the creative types can work and live in a world without bloodshed and pain.
Amen.

But for a while it doesn't look good, sorry to say. And don't get me wrong, I'd probably agree with you on several key issues, like Iraq being a quagmire whose repercussions could well be far-reaching, and only compounding the terrorist dimlemna. Oh well, any sane solution to anything will be thrown out because it offends Jesse Jackson and the ACLU, or the pious religious right. I think it is a Murphy's Law corrolary.

NigellaL's picture

Meanwhile I can’t seem to get ahead here, even though I am making what some people think is decent money. We can’t afford to buy a house, let alone provide for retirement at my current income levels.

One can't help but notice that you've been one of the top 3 posters around here lately, and I wonder if perhaps there's some sort of correlation between time spent posting to online bulletin boards and money earned?

You Yanks are lucky you haven't got anything like the BNP. they make all but your worst Republicans look quite tolerant indeed.

pattyfab's picture

>But among the Christians I know are some of the staunchest supporters of Israel that I know of.

I'm a Jew but not necessarily a Zionist. I support a two state solution. Both sides need to make sacrifices but I don't see that happening with Hamas in power and invading Iran which seems to be our gov't's next step will only flame the anti-Israel fire.

The Christians only support Israel anyway because that's where the Messiah is supposed to turn up for the rapture, innit? At which point the Jews will end up in hell anyway because we weren't baptized.

Sorry I'm getting way off topic here... just glad to be living in my little island off the coast of America.

Nigella: What's the BNP? You're not Nigella Lawson, are you ;-)

NigellaL's picture

Nigella: What’s the BNP? You’re not Nigella Lawson, are you ;-)

Just a fan who happens to share her first name... I'm rubbish in the kitchen, unfortunately.

the BNP is the British National Party. horrible racists, that lot. "England for the English", etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

pattyfab's picture

Yeah, Europe has it's own problems re immigration.

fontplayer's picture

and invading Iran which seems to be our gov’t’s next step will only flame the anti-Israel fire.

Actually I am sort of surprised that Israel hasn't done anything themselves. I don't see how they can allow Iran (and that freak that is in charge) get nuclear weapons to stick on all the missles aimed at them.

...I wonder if perhaps there’s some sort of correlation between time spent posting to online bulletin boards and money earned?

This has been a sort of stress reliever for me lately. No correlation about the income thing, but my music practicing has suffered.

Don McCahill's picture

> I’ll second that and add that unless you are 100% Native American you are no doubt the descendent of immigrants

Actually, natives were also immigrants as well. However they were the only ones who came to an uninhabited area.

Isaac's picture

"…unless you are 100% Native American you are no doubt the descendent of immigrants…"

Is there a statute of limitations on this one? How far back do you want to go? Because I'm pretty ticked off about the invaders from the land bridge who wiped out the woolly mammoths. No respect for the ecosystem! And the way they just took over the entire continent was just rude. I mean, have some respect. Suddenly it's their continent? Sheesh. They weren't even born here, unlike me.

michaelbrowers's picture

I consider myself pro-immigration. It is one of the things that makes this country great. That said, I fervently support LEGAL immigration. Allowing illegal immigration hurts those that follow the proper channels.

My wife is Azeri and immigrated here on a fiance visa last year to marry me. The process of the fiance visa and adjusting her status after we married to allow her to stay took about a year. Additionally, we had to wait two years for her 212(e) residency restriction to expire prior to the fiance visa process. I speak from personal experience when I say that the legal process of immigration takes time and can be filled with anxiety. BUT the process exists for a reason and should be respected. My wife and I were treated with the utmost respect throughout the process by USCIS officials and in the end we were rewarded for following proper procedures.

The issue of illegal immigration touches my wife and I personally as we followed the rules and waited over two years to be married and together. To reward illegal immigration in many ways punishes those of that follow the rules. I am in favor of more open immigration policies, but at the same time I believe that whatever immigration policies/laws are in place should be enforced.

fontplayer's picture

To reward illegal immigration in many ways punishes those of that follow the rules. I am in favor of more open immigration policies, but at the same time I believe that whatever immigration policies/laws are in place should be enforced.

A perfect and concise summation of my feelings. Thank you for sharing that.

caboume's picture

The issue here is specifically the politics regarding
illegal immigration not the general meaning of immigration.

The bottom line is, we need to have some type of control system.

My parents immigrated to this country in the 1970s not by dodging
border patrols, but through the established legal process.

I'm concerned w/ the illegal immigrants who come and try to abuse
the loopholes of our laws and "milk" it as much as they can.

As was pointed out, even if most illegal immigrants who come to this
country are living and working an honest life, are they paying
taxes? How are they contributing to the welfare of our nation?

Furthermore, does our nation have the economic resources to sustain
an ever expanding illegal immigration population?

Even if we support the mental determination of illegal immigrants
to carve out a better life, it is simply unrealistic in the long
run to remain stagnant in our border policies.

Does that sound too unreasonable or right wing?

I'm a Democrat btw.

pattyfab's picture

The problem with the proposed new law is that it does not discriminate between hard working tax paying "illegals" and those abusing the system. It criminalizes all of them. If it were easier for dedicated hard-working would-be immigrants to gain legal - even if temporary - worker status then it might free up resources to deal with those who really shouldn't be here. And I reiterate that these new laws seem particularly aimed at certain groups.

My personal pet peeve is foreigners living here who complain about America. I complain very loudly about our government but as an American who votes I feel I have that right. But when my (mostly European) friends start grousing my response is "don't let the door hit you on the way out". If Europe's so bloody great, why'd they leave?

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