What the hell happened? He had a billion cool links.

A brandnew website is just being installed.
The link to his new site will be announced
shortly.

It would have been a great loss, if his great
unique website had been shut down for ever.

But Luc has many true friends and helpers.

Uli
(www.forgers.de)

What’s the business about “political correctness” and “academic freedom”? Did he have polemical rants that offended his “hosts”? Just curious. Good to know the site will be up. Often when I look up anything font-related on Google, his site is on the first set of hits!

Mr. Devroye had a great collection of links for typography.
He also had an agenda to promote his “academic freedom” by actively promoting pirates and knock-off fonts and telling lies about type designers. Most of his information was correct and factual. Often it was opinionated and libelous. His love for typography was contradicted by his disdain for those who would try to make their living designing type. May he rest in peace.

Some good news:

http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/

His love for typography was contradicted by his disdain for those who would try to make their living designing type.

You’ve never met him? You’d quickly find out that especially the last sentence is far from the truth. (Last from my quote not from your post.)  ;-)
That working at a university and working freelance (me too) each has the consequence of emphasizing different aspects should not really surprise.

Karsten

Did anyone read about why he moved the site? Hilarious.

I’m glad to see it back up, it’s a great resource.

Thanks for the link Karsten, good news indeed!

Luc is a true typophile.
The issue of intellectual property rights in digital culture is a thorny one, and, coming from a non-type industry background, Luc apparently stepped on a few toes as he was finding his feet, which I’m sure mortified him, but isn’t that ancient history now?
His site put me in touch with a lot of people in the Canadian type community, and elsewhere, who I wasn’t aware of, and on one of my visits to Montreal he took me to the old type section of the library at McGill.

Am I the only one who doesn’t quite follow this?

Oh geez. I just finished a Typographica article speculating that certain commercial foundries (with a penchant to sue) had instigated the closure. Now I find that it was due to some nudie pics. Hilarious.

> Oh geez. I just finished a Typographica article speculating that certain commercial foundries (with a penchant to sue) had instigated the closure. Now I find that it was due to some nudie pics. Hilarious.

Sorry, I couldn’t disclose this in my first posting.
When I looked at the photos of the chicks yesterday,
I was thinking that that they are more hilarious
than my drab legal stuff about font forgers :-)

Uli
(www.forgers.de)

> A brandnew website is just being installed.

Whew! That was close.
Godspeed, Luc.

hhp

I do hope that Luc files a grievance against the University,
and I do believe McGill owes him an apology.

On a side note, so much for a party school...

Terry wrote: “He also had an agenda to promote his “academic freedom” by actively promoting pirates and knock-off fonts and telling lies about type designers. Most of his information was correct and factual.”

Hmm, I was with you right up to “most of his information was correct and factual.” I once dissected a lengthy rant of his and pointed out that most of his assertions of fact were false, and many of the remainder were at least misleading.

I’m completely supportive of Luc DeVroye’s right to express his opinions on any topic he likes. And he’s welcome to tell lies, as far as I’m concerned, although that might get him sued for libel some time. (Usually he’s careful to quote other people, instead of asserting things directly himself - a clever tactic.)

However, what I object to is his posting vast numbers of links to pirated fonts. I particularly object to his doing that on a University’s web site. I find it ludicrous that he could promote theft for years, but he posted some pictures of naked women and they shut down the whole site?

I think McGill owes type foundries an apology. I have no particular sympathy for DeVroye. He should have been reined in years ago.

Regards,

T

Luc’s website was my very own portal to the magical world of type, so I am thankful for it and glad to see it back up.

so much for a party school…

as a McGill alumni, I can say that this is really crazy! I remember back in 1997, taking some of my Canadian McGill friends to a nasty frat party at SUNY Plattsburgh (small state school in the boonies of upper new york state) and the expressions of horror etched into their faces...

but maybe we were just nerds.

on another side note,
NO McGill students I knew hung out at Club Super Sexe or, for that matter, Ste. Catherines street. That was for the cheesy Americans looking for a weekend of drunken debauchery.

sorry, back to type...

I have no particular sympathy for DeVroye. He should have been reined in years ago.

I hear you are with Adobe, and Adobe rocks, but his site is where I find most of my googles answered. Typohile.com a close second.

I’d like to suggest the truth lies somewhere in between. Over a beer (or two) you guys could probably come to terms (Except maybe for the weird math stuff).
: )

vast numbers of links to pirated fonts

Are they still there?

> LINK REMOVED Occasionally posts font packages. For example, Adobe Font Folio 7, 8, 9 and OT were posted on 31 October 2004.

Hmmm, found this link on his site, yes it seems like they are still there... :^/

However, many of them seem to be dead now for good.

Geoff, that’s a no-no at typophile.

(!) My apologies, I seem to have slipped up this time and forgot to remove the link before posting. I realised what I had just done after a few minutes, link is removed now. My intentions were good, sorry.

Luc Devroye is a professor in the Math department at McGill University. If he wants to run an inaccurate typography database, links to pirated fonts*, a blog of social commentary, and photographs of naked women*, he should do it on his own server, his own time, and his own dime. McGill was completely within their rights to shut him down. And Carleton should do the same. What exactly does the typography database have to do with Devroye’s math teaching?

Mr Devroye lurks on Typophile, and I would be curious to hear his thoughts on this matter beyond the insipid statement on “his” website; i.e. the directory made available to him by McGill University.

*copyright-protected

You’re right, Period.

Viva Google cache!

And, Stephen, I was thinking the exact same thing.

“If he wants to run an inaccurate typography database, links to pirated fonts*, a blog of social commentary, and photographs of naked women, he should do it on his own server, his own time, and his own dime. McGill was completely within their rights to shut him down. And Carleton should do the same. What exactly does the typography databse have to do with Devroye’s math teaching?”

Your logic is weak:

1. He was shut down for the photos only. What does piracy have to do with it? what does inaccuracy?

2. The fact that Luc is a controversial figure (not in my mind) only bolsters the case for free speech, and McGill should at the very least not interfere. Bureaucrats don’t tell academics what to say.

3. In Canada, you can post link to whatever you want. You can also download whatever you want. You only violate copyright laws if you upload. So says the Canadian courts, and a good reference is Michael Geist’s website (at least his university didn’t shut him down).

Quake, surely Universities can’t allow professors to post Playboy pics.
The optics are terrible.

I don’t have a problem with the type site content and links, recognizing it as an amateur endeavour.
But again, having it posted on a university site lends it a spurious authority.

Nick, perhaps you’re right, but surely the question is not what universities should allow, but what they can prohibit. I don’t think bad form gives McGill grounds for censorship, and insofar that I believe they interfered with his academic freedom (which I interpret very broadly), I’d like to see a grievance filed (which I’m sure the university would settle, with an apology).

Mr. Phinney wrote:

> ... what I object to is his posting vast numbers of links to pirated fonts
> ... He should have been reined in years ago.

In my opinion, the behaviour of Adobe Inc. is sort of schizophrenic:

At Adobe, Mr. Charles Geschke, Mr. John Warnock, Mr. Thomas Phinney etc. are acting as “policemen” and “prosecutors” who are running this website:

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/reportform.html

At this website concerning what they call criminal “felonies” which “can result in prison terms of up to five years, and felony charges with fines up to US$250,000”, any visitor can report “suspects” to Adobe’s “policemen” and “prosecutors”.

But I learnt to my surprise that crime reports received at this Adobe website concerning such “felonies” are **not** surrendered to the real criminal police or to the real public prosecution, but on the contrary, these reports are kept secret by Adobe’s in-house “policemen” and “prosecutors”. That is sort of schizophrenic, but what is more, the refusal to surrender crime reports received to official crime-prosecuting authorities is a crime in itself in many countries.

Here’s an example for this bizarre behavior:

For more than ten years without interruption, a font forgery collection CD called “Schriftenpaket Osteuropa” has been sold in Europe. This CD is a forgery of the Adobe CD “Font Folio”.

For instance, today (27th April), this “Schriftenpaket Osteuropa” CD is being sold here:

[Links Killed by a moderator with nothing better to do.]

(Will Typophile moderators kill above links so that the police cannot see them?)

At my website, I documented this font forgery CD “Schriftenpaket Osteuropa” here

http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/osteuropa1.pdf

and pointed out the bizarre fact (see page 4 of above file) that Adobe’s in-house “policemen” and “prosecutors” Charles Geschke, John Warnock, Thomas Phinney etc. have always refused to forward crime reports concerning this font forgery CD to official crime-prosecuting authorities.

Therefore it is sort of schizophrenic that Mr. Phinney declares in view of Prof. Luc Devroye (who also quoted my above documentation on this font forgery CD) that “he should have been reined in years ago.”

As a university professor here in the U.S., and an amateur follower of copyright issues, I have to say that I agree McGill is within its rights to shut down any site it hosts within the parameters it sets forth for operating a site on its servers. By using one’s server space, email, etc., to provide anything that network administrators and any other relevant authorities at the university determine is unacceptable, one is essentially violating a contract. And hence, one has no right to complain.

That said, any actions as drastic as shutting down a prof’s site have to be conducted with something like due process; that’s not only fair in the common-sense sense, but also usually a formal component of all such administrative processes. I.e., it’s generally expected both culturally and officially.

That said, this case has absolutely nothing to do with “academic freedom.” At least in the States, and as a coordinator of a large chunk of courses, I am constantly running into abuses of the term. Academic freedom is about the right to speak on political issues freely in and out of the classroom without fear of professional retribution. The historical context involves people being summarily fired for having the “wrong” political views (think of the “Red Scare” and the Cold War here in the U.S.). It doesn’t mean “You can do whatever you want, and say whatever you want, and there won’t be any consequences.”

There are certainly cases in the States in which people have been asked to leave in what appears to be violation of academic freedom. But often these very same people are saying things that fly in the face of other important values in higher education, such as (a) promoting sound and reasonable research rather than lies, (b) maintaining an open and free educational environment rather than damaging this environment, and/or (c) bringing disrepute upon the institution for any number of reasons (e.g., the revelation of a prior criminal record or other damaging material that was not openly revealed during the hiring process).

Nevetheless, these are not black and white issues. So long live academic freedom and the debate about what it is. Not that this has much to do with typography...

Bottom line, if there were only one set of font links on the internet, there isn’t even a close second to the extensiveness of Luc’s site. Definitely a very useful research tool, and although I am sorry about the pirate links (perhaps related to the Canadian Socialist way of thinking?) I would be very sorry of that resource was no longer available.

His “Latest” page is one of my favorite time-killers, and includes links to many of the fonts being developed and shown here by Typophile’s regulars.

What in the blue blazes is wrong with the Socialist way of thinking!?!?

I’ve recently seen Bowling For Columbine, and it painted a sorry picture of the American government’s way of thinking in comparison to the Canadian government’s way of thinking, so I reckon I’d definitively chill on the Canadian-bashing, Dennis. :^/

(Will Typophile moderators kill above links so that the police cannot see them?)

Uli, do you really think we haven’t got anything better to do? Just don’t publish them in your post in the first place!

Man, I am growing so tired of your antics...

It wasn’t bashing, just a remark. Perhaps naive. I’m not an intellectual (surprise), but isn’t socialism a sort of one-for-all and all-for-one kind of thing at it roots? If you take that to a possible conclusion: So, I have as much right to your work as you do, in an abstract way.

Oh well, my intentions weren’t to stir another hornet’s nest. Please forgive if I don’t have a grasp of the concept. For a while I sort of bought into that kind of thing, but it definitely has issues, I can tell you that.

One that comes to mind is rewarding the lazy and punishing the productive. How long until a sense of unfairness manifests itself? Maybe some large groups of people are far more altuistic than myself. I guess if it is successful I can’t argue with it.

“Socialism” can mean a lot of things, but the safest general way to think about it is this: Socialism means the public or common ownership of the means of economic production, based on the assumption that private ownership of those means, no matter the intention of the owners, over time produces systematic and persistent inequalities in society.

Not even Marx and Engels thought it meant I have the right to your personal property, or to steal your possessions, or to deprive you of the means of making a living. DeVroye’s site and his links to pirated fonts have nothing to do with socialism, whatever else you might want to say about it (or him).

I’ve recently seen Bowling For Columbine

“Indeed, even speeches shown on screen are heavily edited, so that sentences are assembled in the speaker’s voice, but which were not sentences he uttered. Bowling uses deception as its primary tool of persuasion and effect.” was one complaint by someone pointing out it didn’t qualify for a documentary. Don’t believe everything Michael Moore tells you would be a good rule of thumb.

In my mind Columbine was just one result of a society that is allowing God to be outlawed. Yes, it is my society and I am not proud.

Socialism” can mean a lot of things, but the safest general way to think about it is this: Socialism means the public or common ownership of the means of economic production, based on the assumption that private ownership of those means, no matter the intention of the owners, over time produces systematic and persistent inequalities in society.

I had to put on my thinking cap for that one, but I can see a valid point there, I guess. Thanks for the unemotional explanation.

I still remember (during the ’70s) people using “liberating” something “For the people” to justify stealing anything they wanted.

The fascism of the one or the fascism of the masses. Pick your poison. The never-ending debate…

peace

The fascism of the one or the fascism of the masses. Pick your poison. The never-ending debate…

Photo by D. Hill, Font: Lightfoot Narrow by Paul Lloyd

Don’t believe everything anyone tells you would be a good rule of thumb.

fontplayer - :)

peace

Btw, Don’t believe everything anyone tells you to don’t believe. (or does that cancel itself out?)
: )

Already pulled it? Reminded me of Dante’s Inferno or In The Heart of Darkness…

peace

I suspect that to an American Canada seems socialist. We do have universal health care, and a government owned airline and television network. But we also have a private airline and several private networks.

We have a political part that is “almost” socialist, the New Democratic Party ... they have never gotten much more than 10% of the seats in Paliament, and often much less.

We have gun control, where you have to register rifles, and handguns are banned. It doesn’t stop criminals from killing each other (and occasionally the innocent). But it does prevent a lot of “rage” deaths where people die because someone else got pissed off at them (here it results in a punch in the nose, much less deadly than a bullet).

But really ... what does any of this have to do with typography?

But really … what does any of this have to do with typography?

Nothing at all, except someone was jumping down my throat about an off-hand remark, and off we went.

: )

The Canadian socialist way of thinking put in power a conservative federal government.

Jay, you have a narrow concept of academic freedom. I’m sure you’ll get tenure.

>Jay, you have a narrow concept of academic freedom. I’m sure you’ll get tenure.

What, is this flame-bait? Just a little potshot to show you’re cleverer than me?

<flameon> You don’t know me, you don’t have any evident clue about the history of the term “academic freedom,” you don’t understand what tenure actually involves (it’s 99% granted by your peers, not some abstract authoritarian regime), and yet... you proclaim that my view is “narrow.” Moreover, it was quite plain in my post that I was explaininghow things work more or less here in the States, and I ended on a note that clearly said “long live the debate,” which is about as open-minded as anyone can be.

Yawn.</flameoff>

Back to typography, please.

P.S. I like Canada. I have relatives in Canada. Canada’s social and political system is appealing. What more can I say?

You call -that- a flame?

I’ve taught law, so I think I’m qualified for an opinion on the nature of academic freedom and freedom of speech. And, yes I do know what tenure is. And You’ll know better, too, when you get to write a review of one of your peers one day. I hope you won’t judge him/her according to their website. Cheers!

Uh, I actually don’t give a damn what people put on their web sites. If some professor at McGill wants to reproduce copyrighted images of hot chicks squirming in front of a camera, I frankly don’t care. Maybe if they were my daughter, that’d be another story. Then again, if my daughter ended up in a porno mag, well, we’d probably have to have a father-daughter discussion about that.

Anyway, if I judge my peers, it’s on the quality of their work. But if I’m working for an organization that pays me my paycheck, despite all of the checks and balances I expect to operate, and despite all of the freedom of thought and expression I’d expect to enjoy, if I put stuff up on the site that violated a pre-existing rule I’ve tacitly or explicitly agreed to about what’s acceptable, then tough nuts for me.

I could of course argue my case, and perhaps even take my university to court. But I couldn’t summarily dismiss their right to act on their intepretation of the situation and applicable rules any more than I’d expect them to simply pull the plug on my site.

But perhaps, because this is a flame-exchange, you were making a sneaky comment about the quality of my own site? In other words, if I expected to get tenure on the quality of my site (which you can access via my profile), and my site really sucked, then I’d better be careful before judging others on the basis of their sites? Now that would have been a clever jab. For you would have been insulted not only me, but also my hounds! They insisted I put their picture up there, even though it kinda ruins the balance of things.

This still has nothing to do with academic freedom, though. And little to do with fonts, either.

Where’s Miss Tiffany when you need her?
; )

I agree with Jay’s second paragraph in regards to this thread topic. I don’t see why people are being so (in)sensitive lately. Is it the weather? Can we please stop and get back on topic?

Thank you for the link... I love you now... I don’t know who the heck you are but you just made my afternoon- okay week, month and possibly year :)

Winkingly,

Mikey

That is I love Ms. Karsten

hehehe.

Mike

Jay,

I did not refer to the quality of your site. That’s one area I’m not qualified to discuss. And I didn’t take any personal jabs at you at all, so my apologies if you were offended — my intention was to argue that academic freedom is not required for the “company men” but especially for the avant-gardes or shitditurbers.

As for the “contract” or “pre-existing rule”: here you should investigate more. McGill is a public university, not a private institution. No rule it could make, or any contract it would be party to, could deprive its employee of a protected right. Taking down the entire site was a serious infringement.

But you were right about the process (not “due process” - your constitution has territorial limits) - any disciplinary measure or enforcement of policy that infringed on Luc’s rights would require a fair hearing at the first opportunity. That’s why I believe that Luc would win an apology. Can we be friends now?

Just in case someone is just jumping in this tread Luc Devroye’s page is NO LONGER CLOSED.

IT JUST MOVED... that’s all.

You can access the who shabang again at:
http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/fonts.html

Mikey

PS... If Mr. Devroye’s page has links to pirated stuff I have never seen it however I will avoid it if I see it. I think using pirated software is very very tacky. The people that download that kind of stuff are probably not good designers anyway. So if they do download it and lets say make ’something’ with it- you know it’s gonna look like crap. Nobody hires crappy designers and they will soon be out of the job. It will collect dust in there seven year old windoze-me boxes and nothng will become of it. So there :)

{I’m being silly but downloading pirated stuff is for morons}

*HERE* is a nice font named after Dr. Luc

Here are the details of the support given in the Devroye Open Type font:

-Scripts supported: Cyrillic, Greek, and Latin.

-Languages supported: Cyrillic, Greek, English, Bulgarian, Baltic, Czech, Danish, German, Spanish, Finnish, French, Croatian, Hungarian, Icelandic, Italian, Dutch, Norwegian, Polish, Romanian, Slovenian, Swedish, Turkish, and Vietnamese.

- Extended Latin A and B glyphs are also included with this version for even wider linguistic support than mentioned above.

- The following OpenType features are supported within this version, for all the laguages and scripts listed above:
1) Small Caps
2) Caps to Small Caps
3) Oldstyle Figures
4) Standard Ligatures
5) Discretionary Ligatures
6) Historical Forms
7) Stylistic Alternates
8) Kerning
9) Tabular Figures

- DEVROYE_.OTF contains 711 glyphs, including the Euro in both the Euro and the Currency cells. A Euro symbol substitution for OsF combinations is also included in the Small Caps feature.

And here is a quote from my Luc Hall of Fame page:

“I’ve often heard it said that one measure to judge the vitality and quality of life of a university or a locality is its library, particularly by its available reference library in general and reference librarians in particular. If that is indeed the case then the typographical community is doing very well indeed thanks to the wonderful work of Luc Devroye. It did not take me long, after first discovering it many years ago, to realize that venturing anywhere else on the Web for information regarding anything to do with typography was absolutely pointless. Search engines, commercial and free font sites, friends recommendations etc....nothing has ever turned up via any other source that isn’t somehow documented and reviewed by Luc.

It has been such a time saver to read his expert abstracts and distilling of the information offered by other sites. His site has not tried to push any particular viewpoint down the visitors’ throat, rather it has encouraged and enabled all to explore and learn about a subject so rich in history. In this age on information overload, where conflicting statements on the Web are presented as the “gospel truth” by a variety of site authors, it is comforting to know that there is always one refuge you can go to where there is no agenda other than the love of type. In addition, one could never find a site better maintained; in all my many hundreds (thousands??? ) of trips to it I can never recall when it has not been updated within the previous 24 hours. That, to me, is dedication supreme.

Does Luc warrant inclusion in the “Hall Of Fame” pages?? They would be the “Hall Of Shame” pages if he were left out. To Dr. Devroye I can only say thank you, thank You.” - Mark Johansson

Oh and one other thing...

If a designer needs to purchase a font(s) to complete a project for a client don’t you just charge the client for it or use your advance funds? When you are brainstorming or reviewing proofs with a client don’t you discuss costs for things that satisfy the client?

I just don’t see a need to steal if you are in fact a professional. If you work for a bureau/design firm coming up with cost estimates for the client always includes moneys that are to be allocated for spending on needed supplies (such as fonts)?

I know this thinking does not even included academic/non-profit situations, or poeple that take delight in stealing (seedy designers). There are more caveats but I just don’t get the whole need-to-steal thing anyways.

Opinons??? Please post them.

Naive-ly Yours,

Mikey

Why would anyone, including Adobe, be afraid of freedom of speech and the expression of ideas?

Luc lives. And a better world for it.

Gerald

Sorry for moving the topic again but ... Karsten is a male name. Thanks nevertheless.  ;-)

Does Luc have any links for free downloadable copies of Gerald’s letterpress book?
Like fonts, I could buy it legally, but why should I if Luc posts links?
That makes it “freedom of speech”?

Yea, let’s *liberate* Gerald’s book “for the people”. (who’s Gerald?) Power to the people. Wow, I almost feel like I’m on campus. Let’s take over a building and resist the pigs until they get out of Cambodia, uh, I mean Iraq.

To veer off from this flashback: Devroye

Freedom of speech is limited by laws of libel, and also in this case by the requirements of intellectual property rights. I do not know to what extent Mr. DeVroye’s site violates these (zero or a lot), but I am saddened that some here do not seem to recognize that these are legitimate limitations on freedom of speech. Respecting them helps the type industry, and violating them hurts it.

am saddened that some here do not seem to recognize that these are legitimate limitations on freedom of speech.

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic. As was (I think) the previous poster. I don’t know who doesn’t agree with you. I only know Luc’s pages are very helpful, and that he has been very reasonable in my correspondence.

If he has something that is out of order, perhaps instead of acting like a jerk or getting all pompous (not speaking of you), people should just communicate on a personal friendly level, and who knows...?

I know that a lot of people are put off by people who are too heavy-handed. I am, for one.

terryw

The concept of “freedom of speech” allowes me to publish in a form where I can express my ideas. If Luc provides links to illegal downloadable copies of my book, which is copyrighted and protected in that regard, he has every right to do so.

It is the violator of my rights in this regard, the illegal copier who is my concern (and who is liable for his/her actions), not someone who provides information in the form of links. In fact, Luc’s link would be of great benefit to me. Over the eight year publishing duration of this book, three “cease and desist” complaints have been issued, all of them to institutions.

The flip side of this of course is the would be consumer. If you prefer to steal the fruits of other folks efforts, rather than pay for them, that ultimately, is your problem.

The point was, his site was far more than expression of ideas, it was also an active promotion of piracy. I do not advocate the stealing of your book anymore than I would advocate the stealing of fonts. a link to a known pirated font is equally bad as hosting the pirrated font. In my opinion only of course. Luc was a hero to most. He did also harm some type designers.

This is as good a place as any to insert an elaboration of how *not* to deal with these kinds of things.

Even if you think you’ve been harmed, it is important to appear civil and reasonable. Otherwise you will instigate what I call the “Treacy Effect”. Which is that even people who agree with him want to see his whole offering spread far and wide as a sort of cosmic retribution.

The people who can make their point without getting nasty have much more influence over me. It was just such an appeal in the Usenet group years ago (who it was, I don’t know) that got me to see the other side of the downloading issue.

And it also had the side-effect of giving me a sense of freedom, since without having to have every font made by everyone, it was much easier to manage the whole affair.

Now I pretty much just dump my fontplays in there and very little else. I perhaps flatter myself by thinking someone will see that nice things can be done with free fonts, and it could help free them too.

Surely it’s possible to be ambivalent about this, and take the good with the bad.
It’s not as if Luc’s site is primarily a portal to piracy, that’s a small part of it, and it doesn’t seem that he’s breaking any laws.

The same could be said about Apple, Microsoft, and Adobe: their positive contribution to digital typography is immense, but at the same time their practice of font bundling “does harm to type designers” and “should have been reined in years ago”.

practice of font bundling “does harm to type designers”

Unless you happen to be one of those type designers who get 00,02 per font x 10,000,000. Then it is not so bad. We should be so lucky.

>a lot of people are put off by people who are too heavy-handed

That’s absolutely true, Fontplayer. How do you suggest dealing with a situation where anyone who suggests that stealing music or fonts is labelled a spoil sport and ought to lighten up?

Personally, I don’t think it’s an accident that where music theft is rampant that the current music is pretty poor also. When money is tight, companies won’t take the risk of developing new artists the way they used to to, so it is difficult to get anything but lowest common denominator stuff into the market place. I’m not saying this is the whole story behind the failure of the record companies to nurture talent, but I do think it is part of it.

And suppose I am right. Then music theft has led to a great decline in the quality of music, and the crushing of a lot of talented musicians out there. So when both music and musicians are hurt, I don’t think ’lighten up’ is on target. But how do you make the point ?

But how do you make the point?

My feeling is the reasonable people will respond to politeness and a patient explanation. The unreasonable people will ignore you regardless. But at least the reasonable people will be affected and the unreasonable people won’t step it up a notch just to spite you.

With nastiness, in no time at all you can be drawn into “Who is the Biggest Idiot” contest with the unreasonable. And some of the reasonable people will even take pot-shots at you because you are such an easy target.

It looks like this story is bigger than typography. Devroye has been inundated with interview requests: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=devroye&btnG=Search+News

That said, let’s keep this thread related to his font pages as much as possible.

From “A sad day” to “A happy day”

Read the new message uploaded by Luc last night:

http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/

This case was a lecture about our world of today, about the brave who still dare to tell the truth and about cowards who have “shit in the trousers”, as we say in Germany. (Das englische Wort für Schiss wird bei Typophile automatisch durch vier Striche ersetzt und belegt auf anschauliche Weise, daß viele Amerikaner heutzutage “Schiss in der Hose haben”.)

Uli

I want to add two comments:

First, Luc’s site can be credited with introducing me to typography. Yet until this debate, I was NOT EVEN AWARE that he had links to pirated fonts.

Second, some people confuse the state of things as they like it to be with the law. The fact that I (and most everyone else here) wish to see designers justly rewarded for their work, doesn’t make IP rights in type design come to life. For example, downloading copyrighted music is legal in Canada (and it ain’t “theft” anywhere on the planet, because the original owner is not dispossessed of anything), and — unfortunately for designers — merely downloading your fonts is legal too (using them for certain purposes might be a different matter). So if downloading is not a violation of copyright, certainly posting the links is legal. Now, you can make a moral case, but others could make the opposite case — and that brings us back to the question of free speech and academic freedom.

>original owner is not dispossessed of anything

except payment for his or her hard work.

To dispossess: “To deprive (another) of the possession or occupancy of something”. Your intentions are good, but you’re still wrong.

Not necessarily. It is only licensed copyright material that can be downloaded. Unlicensed copyrighted material may not be downloaded unless the holder of the rights allows it to be so. Copyright doesn’t just protect against copying or pirating, it protects against unlicensed distribution. If a musician did not want his/her work to be distributed through a certain venue, they are protected (or at least have recourse to legal action).

Type designers have to seek other ways for protection, leasing contracts and such, since type design per se cannot generally be copyrighted (in the US).

To dispossess: “To deprive (another) of the possession or occupancy of something”

It can’t be argued that he is being deprived of income? In any case, y’all might find today’s quote at litquotes.com apropos:

“The law will argue any thing, with any body who will pay the law for the use of its brains and its time.”
Wilkie Collins

Which reminds me of a Reagan quote:

“It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.”

For your information, Canada is soevereign and US law doesn’t apply. Downloading is legal according to Canadian courts.

And Fontplayer, depriving someone of potential income is not the same as “theft” - just read my comment again. You know, I have four books of legal quotes and jokes about the law. They’re always made by someone who doesn’t like a particular legal rule.

Typequake, you don’t get it.

Uploading in Canada is illegal, but downloading not, your courts ruled. The issue isn’t whether music sharing is theft of intellectual property, but who is the thief.

Also in the Canadian parliament a law was introduced to change the situation—I don’t know what its status is.

Here is what is happening:

“How has file sharing affected the Canadian recording industry?

In Canada, the Canadian Recording Industry Association estimates losses to the Canadian industry at about $250 million in sales over the past three years. That’s a 20 per cent drop in annual sales. This is despite the Canadian Private Copying Collective, which was formed in 1999 to offset royalties lost to digital file sharing. The CPCC taxes hardware and software that allows digital recordings, whether or not they are being used for music. It then distributes the money to composers, performers, publishers and record labels. The CPCC collected $28 million in 2000 and 2001. There is no similar program in the U.S.”

So you still think no harm is done to musicians? And that the practice of file sharing is legal?

And facilitating an illegal process that harms people—uploading rights protected material—is moral? You say there is a case to be made for its morality: What is that case?

I don’t know if I should respond, since you pick and choose from what I type, but don’t seem to read it, and because I don’t know if your mind is open to what I am saying. Let me try once more though:

1. I made a legal distinction between copyright infringement and theft. In your eyes they are equivalent because of your commendable agenda, but legally they differ. That’s all.

2. I have no desire to argue about IP policy in Canada. The issue extends far beyond your commercial interests, and I haven’t formulated an opinion. However:

3. I’ll say it again, that Luc couldn’t have violated Canadian copyright law by posting links to material the downloading of which is legal. Hence, McGill could not have shut down his website on IP grounds.

If you wish to debate me on these points, I’m game. Otherwise, I don’t want to be dragged into an argument where you portray me as the bad guy simply for challenging the assumptions shared by you and your colleagues. I should not be bullied on these fora for expressing different opinions. I’d like the law to be upheld, but you don’t get to make the law.

Harm done to musicians? Since when do recording companies promote musicians? I tought they just slapped play backs on top models and sold the product.

Really, I have heard much better music from independet labels and artists than from most big recording companies.

Héctor

The root of musicians and artists of all kinds getting short-changed in so many ways, is a lack of broad-based appreciation for arts in general.

It is considered by many to be a luxury or indulgence. As a musician, I have had my spirit wounded when I am at a club to see one of the world’s greats, and they are being ignored by two-thirds of the people who consider it background music. Small wonder some club owners would choose to play canned music rather than pay a good group to play.

Many people don’t have a creative bone in their body, and wouldn’t mind if Algerian were the only display face, Arial the only sans and Times New Roman the only serif fonts. To some people I know, my interest in fonts is only slightly less strange than how they might view someone with a serious mental disorder.

>I should not be bullied

Typequake, I asked you for an argument for the morality of downloading, when uploading is illegal and hurts people. I think that’s a reasonable question, not bullying, since you yourself stated that there is such a case.

>Since when do recording companies promote musicians? I tought they just slapped play backs on top models and sold the product.

I believe that the record companies spend millions on promoting the likes of Britney Spears. That they don’t invest in developing talented new artists and instead rely on the odd breakthrough from independent, underfunded artists is the problem. My guess is that the financial pinch has made them more risk averse, which is bad for art.

Having met Luc and been taken to the McGill library, talked with him about type and bicycle riding - we both love the sport - it saddens me greatly that Luc would be attacked in this way. I can’t think of a nicer guy who has devoted his life to his work. His “disdain for those who would try to make their living designing type.” You’ve got to be kidding! Linking to font pirates - so what. Dislike of certain major players in the type industry. Right on brother! Doesn’t like open type. Fine. Rants about the corporate world of type hustlers in the big time. Fine. Freedom of the press. Haven’t heard of it?

Eben Sorkin just met Luc on his whirlwind Canada Type Tour and shot a perfect portrait.

He needs someone to clean his blackboard erasers. Doesn’t Canada’s math community have any suck-ups?

And so where’s the girs?

Héctor