I think that timeless is something that happens over time, not something which can be predicted 100% of the time. So you, it is possible to develop a timeless typeface. But I doubt one would be able to sit down and say, “today, I will design a timeless typeface,” and then do it. You see what I mean?

Timeless really comes about because of application, I think. If you are living in 1930, and you design a new face for the Times of London, it is a good bet it’ll become a timeless face, just because the most significant newspaper of the day will use it. What’s a 2006 equivalent? A face like Verdana that a company like Microsoft will put on ever machine so it’ll be all over the internet?

I agree. I think end use is definitely a factor. It seems to me like designing a typeface for pure functionality has a much better chance of being timeless than, say, a display typeface.

designing a typeface for pure functionality has a much better chance of being timeless than, say, a display typeface.

That depends, I think. I think that both Mistral and ITC Avant Garde Gothic are timeless, even though that are both dated. The weren’t designed to be “funtional” per se (although they both had lots of alternates, so they were rich in terms of functions), but they were both designed with a purpose in mind. I doubt that in either case, the designer was bored and just drew something.

Still, I agree that a good text (onscreen or off) typeface has a better shot at “timelessness,” even though the other way is still a possibility.

I think timeless is tougher to do now than in the metal age. It used to be so expensive and time-consuming to produce type that you had to use it quite a while to get return on investment. Today, you can use a face for one job and break even.

ChrisL

Something that eschews every past and current trend.

What about THIS attempt at timelessness ?
http://www.letterlabor.de/typeface.php

But what if you inadvertantly create a new trend (that gets overused) by eschewing all of the known trends? :-) I guess all you can do is study history as much as possible, as that is the closest you’ll come to knowing where future trends may go.

Dan,

How can a face be Dated AND Timeless?

Just because something feels like it is from the 1970s doesn’t mean that it has to be pigeonholed that way. So much of design from the 90s is just recycled elements from the 70s (I’m not necessarily talking type design here).

A dated typeface like Mistral (which betrays its age through its style) has been used for decades anyway due to a number of fortunate (for it) circumstances. Its continued use is therefore virtually assured. In this sense, I think that it is timeless.

Great link, Stephane.

The problem with the Neutral typeface designed for conceptual artists, is that by being designed for them, it ceases to be neutral in the way that Arial is by virtue of being the most-used default.

All that can be said about the neutral is that it is the Not, the Neither; as soon as it becomes something, it negates its neutrality.

Neutrality is a quantum condition.
As soon as the observer recognizes or defines neutrality, it collapses.
Therefore, neutrality, as related to type, is an ideal, like “Bodoni”, which exists as a collective archetype, or perhaps a social contract.
As soon as the Neutral is specified, it is open to accusations of bias.

We can know what neutral is, but we can never see it.
When you’re in neutral, you ain’t going nowhere.

Nick Shinn,

Thanks for this very thought-through remark on the subject of my neutral typeface. I was very well aware of the problem that marking or declaring the typeface as “neutral” would, at one level, destroy its neutrality. Just like Helvetica is so strongly accredited facelessness, neutrality, timelessness and what not, which, in turn, makes it very visible, strong, fashionable to the small circle of type nuts (and muttons) that we are. An inherent, but only at a rather “academic level” harmful problem.

But we don’t really need to go that far, the concept falls short (or rather: is paradox) on a much more basic level:

I think that Neutrality is nothing but an auxiliary construction that lets us describe things that fulfill the expectations of the members of a specific social and cultural group at a specific point in time; you call this very nicely a “social contract”.
Because naturally these socio-cultural backgrounds of any of the members of a group differ from one another, the size of the group (that agrees on something being neutral) decreases as we begin to zoom in on something, as we start to discuss details.
In that, I concluded, neutrality is also a paradoxon, because the closer I wanted to approach neutrality, the less universal would this neutrality of my typeface be. Through this inherent problem, I knew that I would always have to fail the attempt to create a typeface that is completely and totally neutral for anyone but the smallest possible group: myself.

Best,
K

Kai, I bought the book, and look forward to examining your design process in more detail.

I have occasionally wondered what an approach similar to Brian Whitman’s — data mining music— would produce in the way of a typeface.

Adrian Frutiger has a nice diagram where he averages all his typefaces to come up with the “Ur-Frutiger” font — but he left out Ondine, which would have screwed things up!

Nick Shinn,

your book will be sent today. Thanks for your purchase, please also recommend me to all your friends ;-)

Of course, the data mining provided, even more so as only a dozen or so of key parameters was measured, only a rough framework in which to draw. But disregarding all conceptual flaws, as discussed above, the typefaces quality lie, to a big part, in what it is not:

It is not a pure constructed sans, but also not a humanist sans. It is not very contemporary, but it doesn’t look old, either. Most reactions when I showed it to type designers and aficionados in the beginning, were along the lines of “So what about this text you’re showing me?”. Which I find a great result.

I am planning to prep the neutral typeface for release in some form or the other by early autumn.

Nick, I shall be curious about your remarks!

Kai