My guess is that you are seeing the tabular figures which are monospaced. Many foundries will push the 1 to the right to try to compensate but then it looks weird at the beginning of as line. Proportional figures solves the problem.

ChrisL

i’m guessing that this has to do with most fonts coming standard with tabular figures. With OpenType fonts, you can have several sets of figures, proportional figures in addition to tabular figures. However, with your standard Postscript/TrueType font, the decision has to be made about which style of numerals will be most useful. Apparently in many cases this means tabular figures.

OK Paul, stop reading my mind :-)

ChrisL

John D. Berry wrote a basic primer on traditional and the ever expanding variants of numeral design and spacing:
dot-font: Numbers Don’t Lie

I sez: “Call’em figgers, call’em numbas, if it don’t look right it probably ain’t”

I should have used all Postscript fonts in my examples.

Act like OpenType doesn’t exist for a moment.

Most Postscript fonts I own (read: license) don’t give me the luxury of selecting proportional or tabular figures. I have to assume that these Postscript fonts have proportionally lining figures. That said, a lot of them have terrible spacing between the 1 and 9.

Two Postscript Bembo versions, one from Adobe and one from Berthold. Clearly the Berthold version has better spacing between the 1 and 9.

So what’s up?? I consider the Adobe version inferior simply because of this. I don’t want to kern this every single time, so I go with the Berthold version.

Try this test as well:
Type words beginning with cap H like Hamburger at the beginning of a flush left line and hit a return.
Then type “1977” (without quotes) on the next line and hit a return.
Retype Hamburger again on the 3rd line.

Repeat this for both font samples.

Look at the left alignment of the ones and H. See if the Berthold looks too far indented? Would you like to try to force the number 1 to align left in some way or would you prefer to kern the 1 to a 9?
The best solution is to buy Opentype fonts and have your choice of proportional or tabular figures. Otherwise, if your EULA allows, make a set of proportional figures (less than an hours work) and save as an Opentype font.

ChrisL

actually, try this test:
put this string in a font and see how it looks 010111212313414515616717818919
do any of the number combos look worse than the 19 combo?

You’re right Eric, if a foundry publishes a font with only tabular spacing of figures, then the figures should be designed for that spacing.

Helvetica should have 1s with a foot serif, like the Franklin, Trade and News Gothics.

If Herb Lubalin had ever considered that Avant Garde would be used for anything so menial as setting a column of figures, he would probably have designed an alternate set of figures for that very purpose.

I’m wary of proportional old-style figures: skinny little 1s, 3s, and 5s can lack presence in a lower case setting.

For Bembo, why do foundries bother with lining figures? — for a face like that, real typographers use old style figures in text, and roman numerals in all-cap settings.
SUPERBOWL XL, dude.

For Bembo, why do foundries bother with lining figures?

Nick, you bring up an extemely valid point that is absolutely lost in today’s type usage and “font marketing”.

The majority of typefaces available in digital form are actually adapted from “pre-digital” type designed for particular usage (booksetting, handbills, ads, posters, financial, statistical or mathematical/scientific publications, etc.) with little necessity to create a full complement of characters, let alone “super-family” all inclusive sorts for every imaginable application.

I don’t know why some type buyers today feel cheated if they don’t see lining, tabular, old style numerals, nut fractions, etc., and I feel some foundries might feel it is now expected by the type buying public.

Wanting it doesn’t make it right, and in many cases “the customer (unknowingly) is definitely wrong”!

“Most Postscript fonts I own (read: license) don’t give me the luxury of selecting proportional or tabular figures. I have to assume that these Postscript fonts have proportionally lining figures. That said, a lot of them have terrible spacing between the 1 and 9.”

There’s your problem right there! Your assumption is wrong. Most regular PostScript fonts were released by large foundries with tabular figures only as default. So the default behavior is going to be just what you see. If Berthold adds kerning to certain number pairs (as most foundries do with letter pairs), then those combinations would look better. But if there is only one set of figures, the thinking goes that it should do the most jobs, and satisfy the most uses. Since tabular figures are essential to tabular sets of figures (money), the default figures are tabular, and the font won’t contain any kerning pairs between those figures because that would wreck the alignment of the tabular columns.

So, though I think we all agree that tabular figs are not typographically useful most of the time, they have been a very common default style in PS fonts for years. If you do not want to invest in OpenType (see the new Bembo Book!), you could alternatively edit the kerning table for your font so that you get the behavior you want every time without hand-kerning.

> I have to assume that these Postscript fonts have proportionally lining figures.

What Carl said. This assumption would be false >90% of the time, I should think.

T

This was a problem for me while designing packaging for die-cast cars. It required me to input things like 1976 Chevy Impala or 1965 Ford Mustang in a variety of typefaces (with no figure options). Over the years I’d say 90% of them needed special kerning care between the 1 and 9. As you can imagine, it became rather annoying. At least I took the time to correct it, most of my peers didn’t even know something was wrong.

Anyway, I thank you all for your responses. I guess it’s not a perfect world after all!

Adobe InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop. Optical Kerning. Does the job.

Otherwise, if your EULA allows, make a set of proportional figures (less than an hours work) and save as an Opentype font.

You make that sound almost too easy, Chris. Remember not everyone has experience with customising fonts.

“You make that sound almost too easy”

From FontLab, choose “New Glyph”; type one.prop, two.prop. four.prop, five.prop, six.prop, seven.prop, eight.prop, nine.prop ,zero.prop, and hit enter. Select the 10 new figures you just created; Go to “new Metrics Window”; adjust sidebearings for even spacing (fixing that pesky 1 for sure) then save. Output font as OTF and load to your system.

ChrisL

I would love to alter my fonts, but it’s too dangerous for me. I would screw them up. I used to mess with Fontographer (still have the box and floppies) but that’s too old.

However, is there an upgrade path for old school Fontographer owners? To FontLab, I mean.

Yes, there is an upgrade at the FontLab site.

http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/Fontographer/

ChrisL

Chris, dude, I don’t even own a license to FontLab! :^D

Thanks for the information anyway. ;^)

“I don’t even own a license to FontLab! “

You mst have been a naughty boy for Christmas then :-)

ChrisL