Excellent. Now, anyone want to attempt a brief tale-of-the-tape for Fontographer vs. TypeTool or FontLab? I can see how this is very welcome news for FOG vets, but it doesn’t make much sense for newbies to try and pick up FOG at this point, right?

Here is Fontlab’s point-form product feature comparison chart for starters:

http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/Product-Comparison-Chart/

I’d buy it if I could only customize the keyboard commands.

...and if it was offered at a discounted “downgrade” price for FontLab users.

Just outta curiousity, how is it that Typetool, as a scaled down Fontlab, supports more characters than FontLab Studio?

Hey look, an upgrade — nine years later! Is there a record for this kind of delay in the software world (excluding Y2K core updates)?

Anyhoo, thanks for picking up the ball, FontLab. You guys rock.

hey, the first “bug”: problem with the Installer; where’s my upgrade?

http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/Product-Comparison-Chart/

;) this is interesting: “Undo” is N/A in Fog now.

I’ve only used FL since spring (after 16 yrs or Fog), drawing 30 or so fonts in that time. Here is a top list of things Fog Does Better in the LETTER DRAWING phase of type design:

1. End points connect like they know they are supposed to in Fog. In FL, they need to be no farther apart than the thickness of a flea’s pubic hair in order to get the points (connected).
2. FL bolding adds, sometimes dozens of, unwanted points. Fog = 0.
3. FL interpolation is practically useless for the same reason as #2, i.e. it does not understand matching points, the cleanup is more work that manual
Interpolation.
4. Fog is smart enough to know that when you have the pen tool, and you click on a contour, it should add a point to the contour, (you can draw all day long with Fogs pen without EVER changing tools). FL = special tool for the same simple function, change tool, change tool, change tool.
5. Fog’s metrics window knew that the baseline was not ness., in fact it’s a distraction to good spacing. FL Lets you know exactly where the baseline is in the metrics window whether you like it or not.
6. type an unoccupied character in Fog, it shows up blank. FL crashes 50% of the time, and otherwise misbehaves when you type the as yet defined.
7. Fog = Correct path direction. FL = Reverse all contours. The former just works, the latter, I don’t even know why they bother unless you’re supposed to delete every contour that is correct, “Reverse all contours” to correct the contour(s) that are wrong.
8. 15% of all zooms in FL’s glyph window fly to a minuscule and uneditable 12 point. Fog = 0% of all zooms are correct.
9. FL is seriously deranged about the differences between “copy”, “delete”, and “merge”. Fog’s got it 100% right. (In FL, I still have not figured out how to select more than one point and merge the contour around it...)
10. Fog has a tiny number of icons for all the tools you need, and every single one is useful every day. FL is Totally Nuts about tools and icons.

Things on the other side of the ledger:
1. FL is pretty. Fog is not.
2. FL goes on, Fog does not.
:-)

FL supports the development of OpenType fonts (without using an external compiler) and Fog does not. FL is the 777 to Fog’s Sopwith Camel. You can’t fly a 777 through a barn, but you can’t carry 500 passengers in a Camel.

Yes, the drawing environments are different, in much the same way that Illustrator and FreeHand’s drawing environments are different. Which one’s better? The depends upon which one you like use best.

Personally, I was delighted to make the wholesale switch to FontLab in 2002, and I haven’t looked back since. I have had the chance to poke around with FogX, and was amused by the anachronism: made me want to thrown on some neon legwarmers and fire up the Flashdance soundtrack.

All of which to say: If you’re a devoted FogHat, you’ll be delighted to have the application ported and tweaked for use on OS X. If you’ve made the switch to FontLab and are happy with it, you probably won’t find a reason to switch back to Fontographer.

David, I think you nailed it with your list... Fog feels like a type ‘designing’ tool to me, whereas Flab has always felt like a type ‘programming’ tool. I’m not adverse to programming and the more technical aspects of type development, but if it gets in the way of the design process, then a different tool needs to be used. I use both applications, and I prefer them for different reasons.

> “2. FL goes on, Fog does not.”

The fact that Fog 4.7 has been released at all negates this point entirely.

Thank goodness Fog is a player again.

>Thank goodness Fog is a player again.

Speaking of “play” and “again”:

But you’ve always had the ability to go back. All you have to do is boot up your old Mac, click two times and say, “There’s no place like FOG. There’s no place like FOG...”

It will be more interesting when they do the real upgrade—FOG 5—due out next summer.

David: are you on FontLab Studio 5/Mac beta list? If not - contact me - most of things in your list are fixed.

Mark: I think that even more interesting it will be when we release Fontlab Studio with all best Fog features.

> “2. FL goes on, Fog does not.”
“The fact that Fog 4.7 has been released at all ...”
No, I mean the real tool, not 4.anything. I only ever used 4.x in a pinch, and never for drawing. Getting 3.5 to work in X’d be a hoot, but that ain’t gonna happen.
The overall appearance, interacitve piece-wise scaling of parts, “I’m sure there must be some way to do this” adventure, continuing into the “I’m sure there must be a better way to do this” adventure, makes FL worth sticking to, at least until I get to it’s last nook. Sure, I could’ve drawn 50 fonts in the same time in my old Fog, but those days are gone, My list is for FL improvements (; O O ;)

> when we release Fontlab Studio with all best Fog features.

when?

> when?

We are working on it. Right now. :-)

By the way, I didn’t run into any issues with the demo installer. Has anyone else had a problem like Mr Hamuel experienced? Just wondering...

Yuri, is there a definitive list of what ‘bugs’ were actually ‘fixed’?

Cheers.

They* fixed it; just ordered FogLamp and faced the same issue, but right now - everything is fine!

(* well... Lisa Devlin fixed that).

> Mr Hamuel

ahhh.... this is too heavy Mr Hutchinson :)

Grant: not much. Layout of all dialogs is updated to match current UI standards, some old crash-bugs were fixed, embedding problem is fixed, clipboard exchange with AI works (do not forget to turn on AICB option in AI files & clipboard preferences) and all encodings are updated to include Euro. Also, few things in TT export were fixed so it basically produces better TT fonts. Anyway, we recommend to post-process Fog export using TransType or a combination of FogLamp and TransType.

A quite bizarre event, from an open-minded, big-hearted company.
It hasn’t been easy for the tech-minded FontLab to accomodate the criticisms of diehard Fogoholics, but they have found ways to make Flab more user-friendly, e.g. working with indie-foundry beta-testers — and now this.

Yes! I second Nick’s statement. Let’s all send thanks to Yuri, Cyril, and the team in Russia, and Ted, Lisa, and the American team. Without their tireless work we type types would be in quite the pickle, selling our rubdown sheets door-to-door.
Thanks.
c

PS; I forgot to shout-out to Adam, whose knowledge of the software is invaluable; hiring him was one of the best things FontLab has ever done.

David,

thanks for your list — it’s almost as good as your list of 10 things you like about Matthew Carter :)

> 1. End points connect like they know they
> are supposed to in Fog. In FL, they need
> to be no farther apart than the thickness
> of a flea’s pubic hair in order to get
> the points (connected).

In FontLab 4.6 or FontLab Studio 5: Options / Glyph Window / Snap-to distance. Set to 50 and you’ll be talking elephant pubic hair.

> 2. FL bolding adds, sometimes dozens of, unwanted points. Fog = 0.

Agreed. I believe FontLab Studio 5 has some improvements on this, but in addition, FontLab Studio 5.5 will include Fontographer’s “Change Weight” command.

> 3. FL interpolation is practically useless
> for the same reason as #2, i.e. it does not
> understand matching points, the cleanup is
> more work that manual Interpolation.

This has been improved in FontLab Studio 5. FontLab Studio 5.5 will probably alternatively include Fontographer’s blending algorithm.

> 4. Fog is smart enough to know that when
> you have the pen tool, and you click on
> a contour, it should add a point to the
> contour, (you can draw all day long with
> Fogs pen without EVER changing tools).
> FL = special tool for the same simple
> function, change tool, change tool, change tool.

Agreed. This is still subject to improvement in FontLab Studio.

> 5. Fog’s metrics window knew that the
> baseline was not ness., in fact it’s a
> distraction to good spacing. FL Lets
> you know exactly where the baseline is
> in the metrics window whether you like
> it or not.

FontLab Studio 5 has a multiline spacing and kerning window where you can turn everything off and have a very plain interface.

> 6. type an unoccupied character in Fog,
> it shows up blank. FL crashes 50% of the
> time, and otherwise misbehaves when you
> type the as yet defined.

I believe you will see great improvements on this in FontLab Studio 5.

> 7. Fog = Correct path direction. FL =
> Reverse all contours. The former just
> works, the latter, I don’t even know
> why they bother unless you’re supposed
> to delete every contour that is correct,
> “Reverse all contours” to correct the
> contour(s) that are wrong.

No. In FontLab 4.6, pick Tools / Transform / Contour / Reverse all and from the parameters pane pick “Set counterclockwise (Type 1) direction”. Then it works exactly like Fontographer’s “Correct path direction” but is not very well-accessible. Therefore, in FontLab Studio 5, we made the command easier to access: Contour / Paths / Set PS direction.

> 8. 15% of all zooms in FL’s glyph window
> fly to a minuscule and uneditable 12 point.
> Fog = 0% of all zooms are correct.

Can you elaborate on this?

> 9. FL is seriously deranged about the
> differences between “copy”, “delete”,
> and “merge”. Fog’s got it 100% right.
> (In FL, I still have not figured out
> how to select more than one point and
> merge the contour around it…)

Can you elaborate on this? (If you wish, you can contact me directly at adam at fontlab dot com).

> 10. Fog has a tiny number of icons for all
> the tools you need, and every single one
> is useful every day. FL is Totally Nuts
> about tools and icons.

I think you should like FontLab Studio 5 since it brings some improvements in the UI. You can customize your UI in FontLab Studio 5 — just pick the icons you want, place them on one toolbar and forget about the rest.

Nick,

> It hasn’t been easy for the tech-minded
> FontLab to accomodate the criticisms
> of diehard Fogoholics

I never believed Fontlab Ltd. is as tech-minded as some people thought. I always thought of Yuri as a pretty good designer — that was way before I started working for the company. Yuri had drawn most of FontLab’s UI icons. While some may think there are too many of them, most of you will probably agree that the ones that are there pretty well illustrate the functionality of the various features. Even David agrees that FontLab is “pretty”. In his spare time, Yuri does a fair bit of video editing and altogether, he has quite some visual taste.

Of course, the FontLab team is always learning. The original development of FontLab was influenced by Russian type designers who not only wanted to draw glyphs but needed to trick around various encodings and codepages. These were the days where nobody had heard of Unicode so FontLab came up with this sheer amount of various technical parameters — very useful for non-Western type designers but daunting for Americans :)

The product evolved. I can only attest that the FontLab team was always very responsive to suggestions and “accomodating criticisms”. I bought FontLab 3.00C on March 17, 1998. I sent an e-mail “FontLab 3.0 — first impression” to Yuri Yarmola on March 27, 1998. I received a reply from him on the same day. His reply was: “Thank you for your messages. It seems that I have some work to do on the weekend... I will analyze all bug reports and suggestions you’ve made and will try to fix some of the problems in 3.00D release.” On May 6, 1998, I received a beta version of FontLab 3.00D from Yuri. Most of the problems that I had reported 5 weeks earlier were fixed, and some improvement suggestions were also implemented.

Sometimes it took patience, time spent on detailed descriptions of intended functionality, making mockup screenshots. But my experience was: the more time you spend as a user to provide detailed feedback regarding functionality issues, the easier it is for the developers to accomodate for. As Yuri said on several occasions when talking about FontLab Studio 5, 90% of the improvements in this version were a result of ideas brought in by users.

I can admit that very early on, the FontLab team had a sense of “idea competition” against Fontographer. The developers didn’t want to just copy the UI or solutions from Fontographer 1:1 but were looking for their own — potentially better — solutions. But after the FontLab product assumed an identity of its own and the company didn’t face the danger of it being dubbed “the cheap Fontographer knock-off”, the developers could become friends with the idea of actually borrowing some solutions from FOG.

This year, we have acquired Fontographer from Macromedia. So now, we not only can “imitate the look and feel” but we can actually physically bring together both products including the programming code.

Fontlab Ltd. brought out the FogLamp product that converts .fog to .vfb just two months after laying the hands on the Fontographer source code. It may be a little gimmick, but technologically, it proves that the merger is possible.

The long-year Fontographer tech support lead Jim Gallagher joined the Fontlab Ltd. team in a similar capacity. We plan to continue the development of Fontographer in 2006, and we are gathering the ideas for the product. Please send your feedback at fogideas at fontlab dot com. We’re listening.

Regards,
Adam Twardoch
Fontlab Ltd.

David,
> this is interesting: “Undo” is N/A in Fog now.

This does not mean that “undo is not available”. It means that the information about the supported number of undo levels is not available. Undo is there but I (who made the table) don’t know how many steps it supports. I’ll ask our developers :)

Regards,
Adam

>> 4. Fog is smart enough to know that when
>> you have the pen tool, and you click on
>> a contour, it should add a point to the
>> contour, (you can draw all day long with
>> Fogs pen without EVER changing tools).
>> FL = special tool for the same simple
>> function, change tool, change tool, change tool.

>Agreed. This is still subject to improvement in FontLab Studio.

If we are talking about the same pen tool (the thing that looks like pen and adds lines and curves), then I have to say that it adds a point on a contour if you click contour. I don’t remember if it was so in FontLab 4.x but it definitely works that way in 5.0. Or you mean some other pen tool? :)

>I never believed Fontlab Ltd. is as tech-minded as some people thought.

It’s a PC-first product.
Creatives use Macs.

It’s a PC-first product.
Creatives use Macs.

I won’t feel bad if Hrant tears you apart for that blanket statement.
>^P

I’d like to hear Hrant’s argument. Sheer numbers prove Nick is correct.

well not that hrant really has an opinion on this, i was just making a joke. but the argument goes like this: “so are all those people that use a PC not creatives?” nick’s statement was overly broad, implying that all creatives use macs. Numbers Shnumbers.

Paul, there’s a difference between being creative and being a Creative.

We get ’em when they’re young; “This is the design lab with its G5s. You belong here. Elsewhere in the university/college they use PCs.”

all i know is i hated those days at the newspaper when my mac was crashing every 15 minutes. (a slight exaggeration) And if being tech-minded is what made FontLab come out with Studio 5 for PC first, i welcome this line of thinking.

Hey Yuri and Adam!

Many thanks for the FOG port for X! I was playing with the demo and was kind of surprised to see that you hadn’t enabled smooth aliasing of the outline forms in either the glyph window or the metrics preview window. Is this really a feature enhancement you’d save for the 5.0 version or could it have been easily included in this version of the software?

Stuart :D

I’m sad to see this previously interesting discussion degenerating into a platform war. Yawn. Time to change the channel.

However, having seen sales figures for many Adobe products broken down by platform (sorry, the details aren’t public info), I can say that Mr. Coles’ statement that “sheer numbers prove Nick is right” is really wrong.

T

> Undo is there but I [...] don’t know how many steps it supports.

It’s user definable and limited by available memory. The default setting (as shown in the screenshot linked below) is 8 steps. It should be interesting to see how far this number can be pushed given the way the OS X handles application-specific chunks of memory.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/splorp/68169184/

Thomas, licensing an Adobe product does not a creative make.

Now, about the aliasing...

Hear, hear Nick. Corporate IT departments commonly mass-license software on a CYA basis, fonts included. But, see... we’re perpetuating the off-topicness again... enough of that.

It should be interesting to see how far this number can be pushed given the way the OS X handles application-specific chunks of memory.

I’ve been playing around with the demo. I just set it to 100 levels of undo and did a little over 100 things, then undid them. It worked right up to the limit I set. Not a hiccough. Based on this experiment, I would guess you could set this pretty high.

Having to specify a number is a bit 1996-ish. The modern thing to do would be to simply make it “unlimited.”

Mark, that would be five-point-oh country, I would assume.

Yuuuuuuri, Yuuuuuuri, Yuuuuuuri, Yuuuuuuri, Yuuuuuuri,
Yuuuuuri, Yuuuuuri, Yuuuuuri, Yuuuuuri, Yuuuuuri
Yuuuuri, Yuuuuri, Yuuuuri, Yuuuuri, Yuuuuri,
Yuuuri, Yuuuri, Yuuuri, Yuuuri, Yuuuri,
Yuuri, Yuuri, Yuuri, Yuuri, Yuuri,
Yuri, Yuri, Yuri, Yuri, Yuri!

1. Saved by the Elephants!
2. A NEW “Change Weight” command! will that be for a selection of points, a whole glyph, and selection of glyphs, all from a single pick? (Will it still do the action on a glyph if nothing is selected?. i.e treating the selection of nothing the same as the selection of all? Just curious!)
3. Interpolation without scripting? Goal!
4. Pen tool, yes, that’s the one that looks like a fountain pen nib, to be precise. Maybe it’s a fontain pen now though. Unless the tolerance is an ameoba’s you-know-what, no it does not insert points.
5. “turn everything off” then we can see everything!
6. ’till then auto-save every 5 seconds.
7. “Set counterclockwise (Type 1) direction” now I remember! Thanks, I keep loosing this unhandy command. I know, keyboard macros would help here, but it should be top level stuff, replace Reverse All and I’ll be happy. In effect, this would put the “let me change font format” out in the goop somewhere, and bring the letter drawing fix-it you may need 30 times a day in the front window.
8. It happens in multi-click zooming, where an inadvertent drag of a pixel or two occurs, and the character either becomes really big, or small. I’ve not seen anyone use FL without having this zooming happen. My suspicion, is that the tolerance for zooming to a marquee needs to be 5-10, and it’s like 1. Elephants?
9. how to select more than one point and merge the contour around it? This is hard to describe because with the same tool, you can select a point 5 different ways (that I can count on the one hand available, AND there is a preference to set on this simple task as well... ;•) )
10. “I think you should like FontLab Studio 5 since it brings some improvements in the UI. “

UUUUUUiiiiiiii, UUUUUUiiiiiiii, UUUUUUiiiiiiii, UUUUUUiiiiiiii,
UUUUiiiiii, UUUUiiiiii, UUUUiiiiii, UUUUiiiiii,
UUUiiiii, UUUiiiii, UUUiiiii, UUUiiiii,
UUiiii, UUiiii, UUiiii, UUiiii,
UUiii, UUiii, UUiii, UUiii,

Thanks for all your comments, and now back to making sure that grindstone knows it’d’ve been better never t’ve been born. :)

David, FLStudio has more neato buttons for things like “Reverse All” both in PS and TT directions. And you can seriously customise the keyboard shortcuts. You can do that in FL4 as well, but in my opinion FLStudio does it much better.

Will everything that is in the latest FOG become part ofthe Mac version of FL5 when it comes out? I am mostly interested in the “cleanup paths,” “bold”, and “outline path” features.

ChrisL

Thanks for the OS X upgrade — using Classic was getting pretty annoying (FOG was all I had left there).

However, I am having a problem with keyboard shortcuts, especially two that I was addicted to:

• Option-[ and Option-] to move from one character window to the next

• Option-arrow and Option-shift-arrow to move a selected element either 1 em-unit or 100 (assuming the base is set to 10)

The online manual suggests these work as they used to, but although I have repaired permissions and rebooted a couple of times, they do not work in 4.7 here.

Any way to fix these? Thanks.

—Kathleen

Kathleen: thanks. We will check these and provide an update if we can fix them.

Thanks, Yuri.

I guess that means that you changed them? Can you explain why?

Thanks.

—Kathleen

I’m happy Fog is back only because it was easier to teach students how to use it. We tried FL one semester and students hated it so we switched to Typetool when it came out. It works fine, but I miss having a mask or template layer to work with.

Personally I would never trade FL for Fog. Back around FL3.1 I might have, but not now. I agree that it’s more technical than Fog ever was yet I don’t see how it couldn’t be at this point given the comlexities of Opentype and font production. Learning Python, or trying to, is a pain. I still have trouble getting a handle on writing something I need.

My only complaint about FL is the size of nodes and handles. In Fog you could adjust to larger ones and I could use that now since my eyesight is slowly going to hell.

George

I felt bad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no Bodoni

My only complaint about FL is the size of nodes and handles. In Fog you could adjust to larger ones and I could use that now since my eyesight is slowly going to hell.

yet another thing you can customize in FLS5.

I’ll just note that I have always heavily customized my FLS 5 interface (with beta versions, it’s been ~16 months now). I both stick a lot of buttons on the toolbars for my favorite actions, and assign more keyboard shortcuts. It’s worked wonders for my productivity.

Cheers,

T

“Any way to fix these? Thanks.”

KT - I had the same problems with cmmd-[ and ’-], and the -/+ keys on the numeric keypad zoomed the metrics window instead of allowing text input, (like -56)...For a while I could not believe such a simple thing (next character), didn’t exist just on my FL...

Then! when I upgraded to Tiger, or whatever the latest Mac os is now, right now, everything started working just like everybody else’ FL. I think, this is bad behavior, but I accepted it.

“David, FLStudio has more neato buttons for things like “Reverse All” both in PS and TT directions.”

Chester - I’m absolutely certain there are more neato buttons in FL. thanks.

”...I’m absolutely certain there are more neato buttons in FL. thanks.”

But is it clear what all the “neato” buttons are for? I would much rather have text to tell me or a drop-down menu where I don’t have to guess what all the cryptic doujiggies on the button are trying to tell me. We don’t need more buttons, we need more clarity.

ChrisL

>But is it clear what all the “neato” buttons are for? I would much rather have text to tell me or a drop-down menu where I don’t have to guess what all the cryptic doujiggies on the button are trying to tell me.

Amen. As relatively new to FontLab, I love its power but don’t appreciate its “choose your own adventure” approach to menus, where the learner of the program has little clue to what does what. I much prefer the InDesign approach, where you can blow up menus and put them on a second screen. Then the icons are big and detailed enough that you can tell what the hell they mean, or there is text right on the button to tell you.

Come to think of it, it would be excellent if the menu items had both an ’expanded’ and a ’compact’ mode. Then you could expand to get details of what does what. I see on Typophile that even very experienced users of FontLab hear about a useful feature that they didn’t know about. This means that the interface could be a great deal improved as far as being learner-friendly or learner-accessible.

Chris, further to Thomas’s post: The Toolbar buttons do have “tooltips” which pop up when you hover over them for a spell, so you can decrypt the doujiggies. AND you can also drag individual buttons in the Toolbars. Once I discovered this I was happy as a clam: I created a set of Toolbar buttons which I wanted to have at all times and none of the ones I didn’t. Also, all key commands can be monkeyed with using Tools/Customize Keyboard... You can even change standard commands. (David will like this too.) My personal additions are: Control-arrows to flop shapes horizontally and vertically; Control-O for the OpenType panel; Control-Shift-O for OpenType Preview panel; Control-S for Generate Font; Control-R for Reverse Contours.

The only problem with the Customize Keyboard window is that it’s not immediately clear how to use it. First, find the command you want to add a key command for. Select it. Then select the “Press new shortcut key” field. Press your desired key combo. If it is already assigned, you will be told; if it is available, it will say “Assigned to: Unassigned”. Then click the little check box. Voila! You can have a dozen key commands for the same thing, if you are so inclined.

The Customize Keyboard window is even more powerful in FLStudio, allowing you to list by command if you so desire, which is great.

Chester,
Thanks for your explanation. I hope FLStudio 5 for Mac will be out soon so I can try it out.
I never like the “explosion in an icon factory” approach to GUI (MS Office is an abomination to me). I wish I could make my own icons which would be just plain 10 pt Verdana text:-)

ChrisL

There you have if Chris! A Skinnable FLab Studio 5! I’d love to add my own icons and build my own bars!

:D

I’d like to tell that FLS5 not only has customizable menus, toolbars and keyboard shortcuts but also can export and import these “workspaces”. So if you think that your environment in FLS is ideal, you can share it with others.

Same is true for all other preferences - it is possible to store all settings in a file and send it to somebody.

Let’s have a big hand for Yuri! Woohoo!

I have another 10. When people get tired of these ten, just scream.

Thanks Yuri. I hope FL5 Mac will be a Christmas present?

ChrisL

“I have another 10. ...”

David, lay them on us dude :-)

ChrisL

Another thing about this:
http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/Product-Comparison-Chart/
It leaves out a lot of BASIC things that are important to note about the various tools. E.G. TypeTool does not, (or did not) have layers, like MASK, last time I checked. This and a few other carefully deleted functions makes that particular “student” tool unsuited for use in a teaching environment for the same reason you can’t teach with a book that’s missing critical chapters. Not having the ability to compare the old and new shapes of letters in a layered environment is fatal to any type drawing tool going back to paper (where we always had the other side). I raised this issue last year at this time, in what must be a dead letter box at Ted’s office. Then, I went off a tought my class without a standard tool, letting them buy whatever they wanted, which was a huge waste of time I did not repeat this year.

David,
Where do you teach?

ChrisL

Hey Yuri,

I didn’t hear back on the smooth aliasing for the preview windows for glyphs and metrics . . . Is it doable to make a quick mod for FOG 4.7 or is this significant functionality for a future version?

Stuart :D

Stuart: It is not easy (or may be not possible) to do smoothing in Fog. Fog 4.7 is the same old Fog 4 just made compatible with OS X, not much more. Next version which will be merged with FontLab Studio will certainly have everything smooth.

Speaking about bad shortcuts for prev-next character and point movement: it is confirmed bug to be fixed in 4.7.1.

Thanks for the reply Yuri! - I wasn’t sure if it was the way the original programmers developed the preview codebase or if it was simply the state of the graphic design industry codebase at that time. I seem to recall the jump from anti-aliased to aliased preview in Illustrator sometime around version 5.5-6.0.

I was hoping it was an OS and codebase issue that was simply a part of the build of the final application. . .

Regardless I will look for the updated FOG integration with Fontlab Studio . . . BTW, will this integration be offered in the first Macintosh port with the Windows update to follow since Studio 5 is already available to Windows users?

Best,
Stuart :D

“There you have if Chris! A Skinnable FLab Studio 5!”

No skin off my nose :-)

ChrisL

Nick:
> “This is the design lab with its G5s. You belong here.
> Elsewhere in the university/college they use PCs.”

In my country it reads: “This is the lab with Windows computers that communicate in my native language, provide documentation in my native language, a spelling checker and hyphenation for my native language, and actually provide customer support in my country rather than through international call center. This is where the Creatives live. Next to it, we have the Mac lab for the new-rich pretentious swanks, everything in English only.” I’m not kidding, and I’m surely not trying to attack anybody. This is really how it works in my native country.

The point I’m trying to make is that a lot of the aspects in the Mac-Windows flame wars is “culturally acquired” rather than “inherent”.

Paul:
> And if being tech-minded is what made FontLab come out
> with Studio 5 for PC first, i welcome this line of thinking.

This has really just pragmatic reasons. Yuri, who is the mastermind of the Fontlab Ltd. operation, is a very experienced Windows programmer. He prototypes and then implements new ideas and features on Windows. Later, he passes on his code to the Mac developers who adapt the code to Mac, make the necessary alternations and of course add some creative parts that are often Mac-only.

William Berkson:
> I don’t appreciate its “choose your own adventure” approach to menus

I really think that we did some logical improvements to the menu structure in FontLab Studio 5 as compared to FontLab 4.6. The feedback on this has been overall very positive and I personally worked hard to clean up the menu structure.

Yuri wrote:
> I’d like to tell that FLS5 not only has customizable
> menus, toolbars and keyboard shortcuts but also
> can export and import these “workspaces”. So if you
> think that your environment in FLS is ideal, you can
> share it with others.

Yes, we really hope that you guys out there will share the user interface layouts with us, and others. In FontLab Studio 5, it’s easy to shape your user interface the way you want it and then export these settings into a file. We’ll be collecting these files and then — if you give permission — we’ll just bundle these presets with the next version of FontLab Studio. So when a regular user installs the application, he’ll be able to choose the default workspace, or the David Berlow workspace, or the John Hudson workspace or the chester workspace.

David:
> This and a few other carefully deleted functions makes
> that particular “student” tool unsuited for use in
> a teaching environment

We’re currently in the planning phase of TypeTool 3. We have heard the feedback about the mask layer. But please write up your thoughts on TypeTool and send them to us (you can send them directly to me at adam at fontlab dot com). Now is the right time to do it!

Best,
Adam

Stuart, on pre-OS X Macs, other than fonts, anti-aliasing of graphics was implemented independently by each application developer. Under OS X, a developer can take advantage of anti-aliasing support through Aqua, but for cross-platform applications, this is probably not a viable option since Aqua is a Mac-only thing.

>The feedback on this has been overall very positive and I personally worked hard to clean up the menu structure.

Thanks so much, Adam, for working on this. I will buy FLS shortly, and look forward to the new structure.

Thank you, Yuri! Dare we ask when?

Meanwhile, there are a couple of others:

• Command T (should be Fit in Window, now, bizarrely, Merge point)

• Command M (should definitely be Merge point; now nothing at all)

Do you think those could also be fixed? Thanks.

—Kathleen

Kathleen: certainly we will bring all Fog 4.1 shortcuts back. They are changed by mistake: different, experimental set of shortcuts get into the beta and final releases. For some reason it was left unnoticed by our own Q&A and beta testers.

We hope to release 4.7.1. update in about a week.

It is not easy (or may be not possible) to do smoothing in Fog. Fog 4.7 is the same old Fog 4 just made compatible with OS X, not much more. Next version which will be merged with FontLab Studio will certainly have everything smooth.

Please, please make that an “on/off-button”-thing.
For some reason it’s much easier to see the quality of the curve without anti-alias, than when it’s on.

For some reason it’s much easier to see the quality of the curve without anti-alias, than when it’s on.

Peter, could you explain what you mean by the “quality” of the curve? I find that an anti-aliased shape shows off its mistakes and dents much more clearly.

Dez, I taught at the Art Institute of Boston’s undergraduate program for 3 years.
Really, another 10!? Oakydokey:

1. The “foreground” or “outline layer is usually reserved for that which is to be made into the contours of the output font. Layers were created to keep guidelines and other junk out of the way of the drawing process. What is this red guideline on the outline layer for?

2. Sometimes, I want to have one off curve point twixt two on curve points. Some people may not, but the option is technically legal. If I select and delete one of the two-off-curve points between two on curve points the other off-curve point is deleted too. Why?

3. If I open a new font, where do the bitmap images of Times come from? What layer are they on? Same thing when I paste an eps. Where does it go? I see it, but I can’t move it. The initial Times bitmaps disappear when I “activate” that glyph’s cell. Where do they go?

4. There is a selection option that puts a “Framework” around the contour(s) I’ve selected. This framework seems to allow the same things as regular scaling, and maybe something else but I don’t know. If I never ever want this kind of selection to occur, how do I avoid it entirely and forever?

5. The points are too small. Did I mention that, or did someone else? Do these have to be original to all threads or can I repeat them cross-thread? ;)

6. Fetch me a component: “select a Component Glyph” The options to finish the job of finding a component from my typed input are: “begins with”, “ends with”, “equal to”, “Less than” and “greater than”. Does “Contains” fit into the “Less Than” category? What would be an example of something you’d type that’d be “greater than” what you found? Am I in a Seinfeld episode?

7. Double points on top of each other, as in a start and finish point in the same location, were passé when Ikarus did it. If my understanding of this is correct, and I’ve gotten used to one point for both start and end since 1983, the beginning/end of contour Should behave exactly the same as any other point on the contour. Possible?

8. By default, objects from other layers should not be selectable. E.G the Metrics plain allows the wand tool. Select nearest contour...then what?

9. Back at that pesky pen tool: when I input a point, and then “depress the shift key” while inputting another point, I expect to form the nearest straight line, or 45 degree angle from the first input point, to the current input point. This is the standard interface for all Bezier drawing programs except the one I use, FontLab 4.6 for the Mac. Why?

10. Input, should always become the selection, Shouldn’t it? I.E. If I have a contour selected, and I grab the exacto blade tool, (even though it’ll be gone soon, maybe), and I insert a point on that selected contour, the point I just inserted should become the selection, and the contour that was selected should not. No?

For some reason it’s much easier to see the quality of the curve without anti-alias, than when it’s on.
Peter, could you explain what you mean by the “quality” of the curve? I find that an anti-aliased shape shows off its mistakes and dents much more clearly.

Maybe it’s just me working too long withouth anti-aliasing. For some reason I imagine I can see how smooth the curve is better without the anti-aliasing. I’ve found myself returning to FOG after trying to draw in Flab just to check the curves. But I might be the only one.

Yuri — in a week? That’s lovely.

Now I have another problem, for which there may be a trick: How do you get FOG 4.7 to import an image from Illustrator CS2? I thought I read that it could be in .ai format, but I also tried .eps — no luck. (It was possible long ago, using the Option key somehow, but it doesn’t seem to work now.)

Thanks.

—Kathleen

Kathleen, it seems to be that you can do a “Clipboard Copy” from ILL to FOG. You have to make sure that your ILL preferences are right - Yuri posted about this elsewhere on this site - meaning you don’t want your clipboard contents to be in PDF format, but in AICB format. With this set correctly, you should be able to copy and paste freely between applications.

Peter: antialiasing can be turned off in Fontlab. Just check properties for Glyph window.

Paul wrote “nick’s statement was overly broad, implying that all creatives use macs.”

Well, I would have liked to be there around 1984 seeing people trying to be creative in graphics-related stuff with a PC.
Situation has changed radically, but this does not mean the PC remains the favorite machine for the generic user.
This influences the strategies of sotware producers.

I haven’t been able to work in the OSx cerison until now
and noticed one thing:

Why has the short command for Merge point changed?

It used to be “commando+M” now it’s “commando+T”

Is there any other short commands that changed
that I just haven’t had time to notice yet?
Is there a way to get it back to “commando+M”?

Amen. I want the David Berlow edition of FL5. — Randy

Peter: Fog 4.7.1 is released. Please, contact our support for update.

> a lot of the aspects in the Mac-Windows flame wars is “culturally acquired” rather than “inherent”.

Adam, I agree. And it’s interesting that PCs are the creatives’ choice in Eastern Europe, topsy-turvy, ennit?

But I think FontLab has been (and continues to be) somewhat blind to the cultural reality in a large section of its marketplace — the community of Mac-based, Fontographer-using type designers.

If FontLab is to shake its reputation as a techie’s production tool, rather than a creative’s design tool, it could start by holding off on the release of new versions until the Mac developers have finished, and release both PC and Mac versions at the same time.

Note that I am talking about it’s reputation.

Having said that, change is always difficult. Going from System 6 to System 7 was nasty. Going from Photoshop 5 to 6 (somewhere around there) involved a lot of mental re-programming. And so does going from Fog 1994 to Flab 2004.

Sorting out how which of Flab’s features can be customized so that they are like Fog’s from which Fog features Flab doesn’t have is a job of work. I note that there are both kinds on DB’s latest list. It really does drive one up the wall trying to figure out how to customize a certain feature, only to realize it’s not possible.

That’s why this thread is useful. In fact, it would be helpful to have a chart of comparable Fog vs. Flab features, showing how to achieve a Fog feature in Flab, or whether it’s possible. Sort of like Adobe’s “inDesign Conversion Guide” booklet for switching from Quark XPress.

My two biggest “wishes’ for Flab:

1. Constrain paths to x/y axis with shift key (as per DB #9)
2. An “expand stroke” feature that works as beautifully as Fog’s.

Other than that, I’m plodding along, getting a smidgeon more comfortable with Flab every day.

My biggest wish for FL is that it be less buggy. Maybe this is a Mac only problem. It is rare that the ported product is as clean as the original.

ChrisL

Fontographer 4.7 for OS X is not very different from 4.1 for OS 9 Classic. I have tried it in the demo form, and find two things wrong. Firstly, the guidelines are black not the grey in 4.1. or green in FL. Second, templates of scanned images placed are also black, not grey as in 4.1. In FontLab the template images are in grey, so why not in Fontographer? Why not have guides in another color in Fontographer as in FontLab? I will most likely be getting FL in the near future along with Scanfont. I’ve used, and continue to use Fontographer as well as TypeTool 2. I’d like to use Fontog in OS X but can’t see it until these problems are corrected. Also don’t like anti-aliasing turned off - can it be turned on from the menu? Type Tool and FL are at least nice to look at. Any ideas?

> Also don’t like anti-aliasing turned off
> can it be turned on from the menu?

It was never “on” in Fontographer so it cannot be “turned on”. The procedures used to display glyph images in Fontographer are the same developed back in the 1990s at Macromedia, and they’re entirely different from what you see in the “FontLab family” of products, that is AsiaFont Studio, FontLab Studio, FontLab 4.6 and TypeTool 2 — which are all related.

As we stated numerous times, the goal of Fontographer 4.7 was to make the existing Fontographer Mac OS X-compatible. A few crucial bugfixes were made and the user interface was slightly refereshed but largely, it is the same editor — with all its pros and contras.

We do have plans to release Fontographer 5 in future which will include functional changes and improvements, and we’re gathering feeback for that (see http://www.fontlab.com/Fontographer/Fontographer/Fontographer-Support-an... ). If you want antialiasing, please suggest it there.

Regards,
Adam

Thanks Adam for your input. I will do as you suggest and forward my feedback on to you. I certainly appreciate what you are doing and will do in the future with all of your products.

Best
Jordan