> set both in the same face

Jason, do you mean simply set both in the same typeface,
or use the same face but with some creative typography?

If you are going to use the same tone of the voice for both of them
I suppose the anwer is yes.

Regards,
AS

Is those two aphorisms are only a typeface question?

My idea was that each aphorism seems to require a very different approach (different type, different typography), and this made me curious about if it would be possible to serve both/each using the same type and the same typographic treatment. The obvious rookie approach would likely be to reach to Comic Sans for the first and some tacky script for the second, but attempting to use either of those styles for both aphorisms would clearly fail miserably. I suppose I was curious to see if anyone would take up the challenge, and if so what they might come up with.

Norbert, your second line is of course relative. How much is “some creative typography”? A little is often a lot. As I mentioned, this is a very indulgent post, so I don’t want to limit anything. (We already tend to impose all kinds of restraint on ourselves anyway.)

The small press I run had, for a while, a project on our website that we called “Variant.” The idea was that we would find a quotation and post it on our website, then invite poets to write something exploring that quotation. From the submissions we would pick 5 that approached the passage in an interesting way and post those to the site, with a single submission being produced as a broadsheet which we distributed to all of those who submitted, as well as sending copies to our subscription list. What made this interesting was seeing how a wide variety of folks would interpret/interpolate the same quotation into very different poems. I suppose I was thinking along the same lines here in that I was curious to see how a range of typographers would approach two very different statements with the challenge being to use only one typeface to set both.

This reminds me of Experimental Jetset’s theory of Helvetica.

If I had the time I’d give it a shot.

Here is mine:

ChrisL

Hey, clever.

hhp

There are several solutions that I can immediately think of because namely, if you take the “design” of a face out of the equation, the reader’s mind will fill in the inflection.

Cheap trick and not necessarily creative by any means, but it works.

In the illustration below, by emulating a handwritten note, the reader directly connects to an individual writer’s notes or correspondence and adds an inflection to the text.

Odd... a blackletter typeface was my first instinct as well. I wonder why that is?

Because blackletter is both cholo and religious/literary.

But this is really lucky. Generally, I don’t
see how Jason’s exercise could really work.
Which however does teach us about type.

hhp

My first thought was Fractur as a Nazi “you are stupid” and as a blackletter typical bible text. I liked the confrontation of Christ and antichrist. After seeing the text on the page, I thought it better suited to the problem as stated to use a bible/manuscript style for both but as a cartoon dialogue between opposite sides. Hence my solution.

ChrisL

> I liked the confrontation of Christ and antichrist.

On the other hand, cholos are often strong catholics.

hhp

I have to admit that once again I agree with Hrant; that is, I don’t see how this can really work, which is why I threw it out to see if anyone could prove me wrong.

Norbert’s take on this issue seems quite sound, both in theory and in his example. I’m not a fan of Lassigue Dmato, but it addresses the issues at play in this problem. I’d be curious to see it in Dear Sarah. That said, the more I look at Norbert’s graphic the more each seems to work.

I’d been imagining these aphorisms both as t-shirts, and as broadsheets, further complicating things insofar as the first doesn’t “deserve” a broadsheet, nor does the latter “deserve” to be on a t-shirt. My thought was that only a relatively neutral type would allow all of these things at once: 2 very different messages produced on 2 very different mediums. That relatively neutral type, however, still needs a bit of personality to give each statement tone and character. Norbert’s does just that.

Hopefully a few others will take up the call as well.

The reason I feel the sample below works is for the very same reason that the “design” of the face actually becomes a visual trigger to the reader, again filling in the inflection of the “anonymous individual” who typed the text.

I think the trick again is to make the reader imagine the voice of the writer. Handwritten and typewritten text (not word processing) puts the reader closer in contact with the writer’s voice.

I was interested in the idea of combining the two texts into a single text, yet still distinguishing them. Editorially, it struck me, as it seems to have struck Chris, that the two texts can be posed as a dialogue.

Norbert, once again your logic is very sound, and, again, it seems to work in practice. I’m glad, now, that I threw this out there as you’ve raised some important points about connecting the reader with an annonymous voice.

John, I’d steered clear of bringing the two into conversation, but you’re right about there being a dialogue going on here (perhaps that’s why these two stuck with me last week). The voice(s) of a contemporary mind cynically seeking “wisdom”? Maybe. My goodness, am I exposing myself through this thread?

Back to business: the interlacing of the two is a nice idea, and the tight leading adds a sense of tension, but the giant “STUPID” in the background feels a bit domineering and messy, despite it being camouflaged. I think the exchange between the two statements already makes the point presented in your design. And then there’s the absent period at the end, and a whole lotta drop-shadowin’ goin’ on. But there’s definitely something interesting going on there.

Much gratitude to those who have given this a shot so far.

Personal question

That’s a good concept André. I wish everything in red was a cleaner sentence verbally though. Maybe if the text in red just said: “Your problem is...colouring an image of god...” and the rest was black?

ChrisL

I thouht about this sentence too, but I’d want to have a red colour on each line.
Here your suggestion Chris.

One reason why Chris’ example works well is that he placed the text within the context of conversation by using cartoon balloons.

The next level of visual triggers that would improve the inflection tone of the text would be to give a face to the speaker:

I know that these don’t comply with your ground rules for the excercise, Jason, but I started to push the question concerning text, typography, image and how they can effect tone and inflection. Plus it was FUN =-)

Norbert — your Sistine Chapel version is hilarious!

Norbert, those are really hilarious!

Isn’t there a question mark missing from “How long....”?

^Yes.

James!
That is f*****’ brilliant!

ChrisL

Yes... way, way, WAY COOL treatment, James.

——————————————————————————————————————————
Yes, once I was a type god, but now I’m plain stupid & happy!

the interlacing of the two is a nice idea, and the tight leading adds a sense of tension, but the giant “STUPID” in the background feels a bit domineering and messy

Yes, I agree. I wanted something in the background to add to the polyphony of voices, but the STUPID doesn’t work as I had hoped. I’d set myself a time limit of ten minutes, though.

It was to easy...

John,
There is still good dialogue going on between the 2 voices. The big word “stupid” interupts it in a way that is confusing. Perhaps the more straightforward approach would be enough?

ChrisL

I see the synergy working here as we learn from eachother. That is way better now André!

ChrisL

I was getting a bit worried there for a minute as Norbert & Chris started throwing chimps around, but some great developments here as the concept is further explored.

The angle taken by James & pushed further by André is coming back around to the conflict that drew my attention to these two statements in the first place, a sort of internal battle between the two. However, the proximity of the two aphorisms in André’s has removed the “primary” dialogue (that is, two separate statements) and instead focused on the “supplementary” commentary (in white). That supplement is very powerful in the last incarnation, but a bit of lead between the two would retain the first level of distinction.

Sorry to knock youoff track Jason; some straight lines are hard to resist. I’ll stop the monkey-shines :-)

Back on task:
Below is a McLuhanized version where the medium takes over the message:

ChrisL

Chris... please [STOP] and I’ll stop monkeying around as well ;)

This thread is getting way cooler than I would’ve ever expected.

hhp

I’d like to see some smileys over the “i” instead of the fat dot.

And a VanHalen logo.

“’I’d like to see some smileys over the “i” instead of the fat dot.”

You should also add the word “like” liberally before every adjective and adverb too if you want that bopper feel:

“Dude, do you like know what your like pahroblem like is? Dude! You are like oh so stupid I could like hurl!”

ChrisL

Oh jeez. It’s, like, all gone to hell.
That “sad” image is rapidly becoming self-reflexively ironic.

“That “sad” image is rapidly becoming self-reflexively ironic.”

Splen it tu mi Lutci?

ChrisL

Greyscale colouring of god (or whatever):

> Oh jeez. It’s, like, all gone to hell.

Don’t get discouraged, Jason. You must admit that many rose to a challenge you yourself thought difficult. You must take the wheat with the chafe, throw it up in the air and let the wind separate what’s good from what’s not.

Anyway, what other bunch of whacked eccentrics have you had more fun with and learned (and taught, thank you for your astute evaluations).

Let the games resume! Creativity needs a little elbow room.

Absolutely Norbert, not discouraged at all; this has been entertaining and edifying, and humbling as well. There was something serious, or, let’s say sincere in my attraction to both of the aphorisms, and in the play between the two which began to reveal itself through this process. Earnest and/or playful, which has been reflected back in the various approaches.

And then suddenly I felt rather foolish as this exercise revealed a 16-year-old-school-girl. Ack! Wha? Really? Well, yeah, I suppose so. At first eliason’s take set me off, but that’s just ego. It was an effective rendering, which was, after all, the challenge. That personality had been there all along in the content, of course, and eliason just tapped into it. The grasping of the latter statement next to the arrogance/ignorance of the former. Pure 16-year-old.

Not to get all dramatic & squishy here, but this thread has been like a community coming together to explore an individual koan. Well, no, it has been a community coming together to explore an individual koan. It’s great. Intriguing and suprising and faultering and humbling. And through typography? Go figure. Great stuff.

ps. Ah, look, at least in my browser the above copy not only ends two lines with “community” but begins two lines with “coming together to explore an individual koan.” A typesetter’s nightmare!

Hi everyone,
I’m new around here and I thought this post was very interesting and fun. Anyway I wanted get my hands dirty and join in.

Both line are strong. I love some of the examples above, so i thought I’d have a go.

Alec

Alec,

Your approach looks as if it were an official inscription. It makes the statement appear to come from a Society (with reverence) as opposed to individuals. This is the first example to push it in that direction. Well done too!

ChrisL

John Hudson and Alec’s post made me think of the following insriptional idea:
(I used my own work-in-progress font “Now”
http://typophile.com/node/16147#comment-94901

ChrisL

This is a bit large, and I’m not sure how to display in line, so:
www.enneson.com/public_downloads/pe/stupid.gif

whoops, forgot the:
in our colouring books

will rework when I have more time

Against my better judgement. Note: I’ve posted this offsite because it is not pretty. I won’t offer any big explanation either. Let it be.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/jupiterboy/PB160014.jpg

Jason

Though the mood of this thread has had some silliness, I did intend my 16-yr-old attempt as a serious response to the challenge. And I offer my apologies to anyone who took it as dismissive or mocking - I should have been more careful with my tone.

I think there’s something very touching about that 16-year-old mentality that I tried to describe in type. You put it well - a mixture of arrogance and grasping - that is part of growing up (but to some extent none of us ever grow out of).

Craig.

Quoting James:
I’ve posted this offsite because it is not pretty.

Even with a warning, that was not what I expected to see while having my morning coffee! Ick.

Why the wrap-around? Though “is? oks” on the left side is kind of intriguing and a nice place to escape from the horror of the image itself...

Jupiterboy-
I think you could do us all a favor and offer a big explanation. Please.

this post is very interesting. it’s so cool to see the different things that people come up with.
...not exactly sure how to post an image on here so here’s a link.

http://www.istitch.net/projects/exp.jpg

———
nc

I could be completely misunderstanding this experiment, Jason, so I apologize right now.

These two phrases reminded me of two people that might care for one another but simply cannot talk about religion with having some sort of communication break down. And so, they always end up talking on top of each other and not really listening to one another.

btw,

Jupiterboy-
sorry, but that was seriously disgusting. i almost lost my breakfast. wtf...

btw,

Jupiterboy-
sorry, but that was seriously disgusting. i almost lost my breakfast. wtf...

Nick,

Very nice!

ChrisL

“Though the mood of this thread has had some silliness, I did intend my 16-yr-old attempt as a serious response to the challenge”

I meant my “chimp” image seriously as well.

ChrisL

Well, rather than respecting the project, I followed my heart on this one. It is political, blunt and ugly.

This image was posted on another board that I frequent. This is a young soldier—screen name: pureflipking. ”Flip” is slang for Philipino. He was posting pics of himself, with guns, in Hummers, with helicopters, and with his purple heart. Someone asked about his purple heart, and he posted links to several pics of his injuries. I almost can’t relate all the feelings I have about these images. Basically, I’ve created a persona on this page and get to participate in the banter, which I would not normally hear. These young soldiers keep their spirits up talking about girls and cars and such. They are like the 16-year old we have under the microscope, but different in a way.

We don’t see the gore much. This ugly stuff. Anyway, I isolated the text I wanted to with color. The wrap was to destroy the other text and the general idea in favor of my own simple 16-year old’s question, which has a double meaning.

How long will we continue to finance this? How long will we as a species keep going?

It is a deeper personal expression, moving beyond my word-nerd fascination with this fun project, and looking at what is really on my mind.

If I overstepped the bounds, I do apologize.

”...It is political, blunt and ugly.”

That is a perfect definition of War!

ChrisL

Jupiterboy-

i respect your right to post whatever you want. sometimes, it’s neccesary to step over a boundry in order to define it.

just remember that when you aim to shock and offend, you might end up doing just that.

———-
nc

^
Yes, and now that we are protected from seeing what we are up to, well, I mean, this kid shot that pic himself with his own digital camera.

The next kid in the thread followed up with “Dude, I saw some pubes”. This is sublime to me. I cry a bit and wonder if I’m really cut out for it all.

I don’t feel it’s my job to make people look. I’m testing my boundaries in this group. Words are spells and images have real power. It is good to realize what power we do have. It is good to be able work it out collectively. Makes us more effective maybe.

I’ve updated my contribution:
www.enneson.com/public_downloads/pe/stupid_2.gif

From the hilarious to the innocent to the jaded to the raw: I think their all worthwhile. Great exercise Jason

Peter,
Very Good! I comes off as a coupon taken from a newspaper advertisement—both selling and telling. Very nice opposition typographically and symantically.

ChrisL

Phew. You folks have been busy.

Craig, no offense taken at all. As I said, it was just ego that was a bit wounded, not because you’re approach was in any way inappropriate, but, on the contrary, because it was appropriate. You found something that was in the content and explored it, which was the challenge.

The same goes for James’ post. Like others, I was initially shocked and repulsed by his brutal interpretation (in fact, at first I couldn’t see “interpretation” at all, I just saw ugly, then fear, then the message coming through my own response), especially first thing after my morning tea. The history of the image is, I think, important, right down to the detail that the soldier was first displaying bravado and only then revealed the ugly side of his experience. The follow-up thread fixating on pubes, and your own response to that (“This is sublime to me”, indeed). This thread continues to reveal new dimensions in two relatively simple bits of text.

Tiff, great. Great. No misunderstanding at all. As in my last post, this has become a community experiment and no longer has much to do with me, aside from the opportunity for me to share in this process. I love that the arrogance of the red voice wipes out the most important part of the blue, stubornly refusing to let go of the denial. As though saying “I’ll allow the topic of god to come up, but I will not listen to what you have to say about it.”

And what’s so humbling is that this thread refuses to give in to that attitude.

Here’s my version...

Lauri, the 6 x 6 word square is GREAT!
It changes the whole emphasis of the sentence.
I’ve been intrigued to see what “crosstics” I could find:
ROB, TRI’P, maybe more, I don’t even care about being “STUPID”

Norbert,

Thanks. I wanted to contrast the two aphorisisms.

First one is all caps, screaming, clunky, squarish, somewhat unintelligible, and rude. While the second aphorism is lowercase, flowing, poetic, and more pleasing to the eyes.

I haven’t found any good crosstics yet... but there’s bound to be some. :-)

Lauri,
I see the contrast as “Digital alarm clock” {top) and “on-screen word processing” (bottom).

The first is an annoyance like my morning alarm which jerks me from the haven of sleep. The second is perhaps an email message to a friend. It is also a man/machine dichotomy.

Quite well done!

ChrisL

Chris,

I wouldn’t mind having a wrist watch that beeped every time I did something stupid and flashed “You’re Stupid” on the screen... that would make me a whole lot smarter. :-)

“I wouldn’t mind having a wrist watch that beeped every time I did something stupid...”

My wife is kind enough to fill that role for me but she does it in a kindly manner :-)

ChrisL

Chris,

Funny! Almost as good as having a back-seat driver! :-)

...a comment on current iPod fascination and trend sweeping the nation and maybe the world?

http://users.adelphia.net/~dabailey/challenge.gif

Haven’t been around in a while so I can’t seem to get the picture to embed. Oh well.

“…a comment on current iPod fascination”

I kept reaching for the “Click Wheel” :-)

Very Cool David!

ChrisL

Thanks! I don’t know if i should post how I think it should be interpretted. There’s a definite structure to it and reasons for the way it is.

I suppose I should actually participate in this thing. Clearly the idea in this attempt was a cacophany of thoughts/voices overwhelming each other, making something simple into something suffocating, despite the fact that only two statements are being spoken again and again.

With something in the background, the image could be of anything, really, just as the examples throughout this thread have shown that each treatment simply draws out different levels of the aphorisms and their interaction.

The type, in this case, needs to reveal little of the speaker(s), as in this case they are disembodied voices cluttering up one’s head, both in the representation, and in the viewer’s mind as the eye struggles to sort out the busy mess on the canvas. There is also a bit of a “race” as the different leading forces/allows the text to move forward/backward towards the bottom of the canvas.

Using the image I have here is heavy-handed and melodramatic, but, in conversation, so are the statements themselves. I was also shooting for a certain uncertainty. As an image of god clearly linked to suffering, this icon seemed to speak to that impulse to focus on pain, yet also drawing attention to the fact that indulging in that impulse is a choice (that is, chosing to draw an image that makes us sad). The same could be said if this image were replaced with any other icon, religeous or otherwise.

“I don’t know if i should post how I think it should be interpretted. There’s a definite structure to it and reasons for the way it is.”

You should.

ChrisL

Ok well, to start off. I used Myriad the typeface used in conjunction with our ever familiar iPod ads/packaging etc.

The emphasis of this piece is on the second line, due to contrast/color, which is in fact the second part of both blocks of text. You read it first by nature: “You’re stupid. God that makes us sad.” as if you’re disappointing someone by succumbing to the masses, but you’re really not sure what you’ve done wrong so you read on!

The secondary line (top) is treated as such...secondary element but just as important, reading: “Y’know what your problem is? How long will we continue to draw in our coloring books an image of...” and then it trails off. This is as if this higher voice was commenting on your confusion by what the primary element told you, there is something wrong with you! (the audience) The white space intentionally left above the type is where you would expect something to be and in this case the iPod. The end of the secondary sentence further draws attention to the fact of our consumerist society and our need to own the latest and greatest objects, as such ’an image of...’ could be an image of anything...not just the iPod.

I think that’s it...does this make sense? Thoughts?

Jason, the top example is truly sublime (and subliminal).
The layering and implied depth does draw the reader into that “voiceless” dialogue in the mind, repeating, fading, returning.
The values of gray are well used and add an ethereal quality to the piece. Running both sentences to the width and height of the sheet also gives the reader a sense of endless introspection.

In college, I did an experiment setting individual lines of a poem on clear acetate, then overlaying each so that piece was actually four or five trasparent layers deep, giving certain lines of text actual physical depth from the top surface. The result was “interesting” but never refined.

Your top piece has the same sense of layers even though it’s only two-dimensional. Good one.

I’d like to see your second piece, with the image and text against a dark field, at at least the same size as the top one. The text suffers in size and is totally subordinate to the image, which is both dominant and haunting.

Though it has been done before, rendering the image by shading the text alone would make the piece riveting to viewers... almost spooky.

Glad you joined in the fun :-) (or angst) :-(

David, the good news is that while your description is useful to confirm to us what you were up to, it wasn’t really necessary. What I mean is that your design does get across what you’ve described. And I like the missing “subject”; a sort of “insert current desire here.” [There’s something about the alignment of the question mark and the period beneath that seems a bit off.] Good stuff.

Norbert, thanks. It’s not as tuned as it should be...
Here’s a larger version of the imaged rendering:

You could be at the airport. Sitting in between two conversations and those two phrases overlap.

Well, Jason... do you have a design for the T-shirt yet?

You latest sample would be daunting, stoping people in their tracks, and then coming over to you trying to read what it says. Well, on second thought, maybe not, unless you don’t mind being hastled in the street.

If Jason comes to Washington, he can get hastled in the streets nomatter what he wears.

ChrisL

That image in Jason’s piece now looks like the Turin shroud?

ChrisL

That last one really isn’t what I had in mind when this started; it isn’t really even what I have in mind now, it’s just an attempt at where the thread has been going. I’m curious, though, about why I’d get hastled in Washington (regardless of my outfit). The image is a take on the Turin shroud, it was used as part of an anti-Bush campaign recently, I just borrowed it for this exercise (not something I’d use “in the world”).

When I first heard that second aphorism the image that came to mind was a Sunday School kid’s drawing of the crucifixion; early training in drawing images of god that make us sad, and scared, and scarred. But it also morphed in my mind to something like “an image of our life that makes us fear” (rather than afraid). Anyway, when I was looking around for an image I couldn’t find a kid’s drawing, but stumbled upon this Turin-inspired thing. A smiling Buddha may have served better. As it is it’s a bit too specifically precocious for my tastes; I’m more inclined to the pure text version. But for a better look at the image itself, try these larger versions with and without text.

Now, seriously, hastled why?

Hrant, once again I agree with your message [so THAT’s what those dialogue bubbles are for; are those the “instant messages” at the bottom of the interface?]. In case others didn’t see it, Hrant commented that what struck him about the god statement is that sadness isn’t something to be avoided, that to do so is inhuman. Absolutely. But there is sadness that comes with life’s opportunities - my good friend’s mother’s death this summer, his opportunity to be present in that experience, not wanting to miss a moment of it, the opportunity to experience that without fear - and then there is imposed sadness, created sadness, indulged sadness, and that aphorism, to me, speaks to that indulgence to an extreme. Why waste time with petty self-defeating mistakes and wounds when you can start at the source? Draw up a godhead that judges, and judgement will be your constant bedfellow, and sadness will follow you all the days of your life.

My friend flew back from Japan and walked his father through the days of funerals and wakes, carried his brother and sister with him, and immersed himself with gratitude into the sadness of his experience. Human.

Many hours since a post other than my rambling, it looks as though perhaps I’ve hijacked the thread and turned it too personal or perhaps ventured into delicate territory too indelicately. If offense has been taken due to anything I’ve gone on about I do appologize. Hopefully this thread hasn’t died, but if so I do appreciate everything everyone has contributed. It’s been an interesting and enlightening experiment.

As for getting hastled in the street, I assume Washington is much like Victoria. From my car to the movie theatre last night I was reminded that venturing into the downtown core brings with it a maze of revelers and wing-nuts from all angles. And then to top it off, the popcorn is always cold.

Jason,
Washington has a lot of pan-handlers who frequent the tourist areas. They ask anyone who looks like they are from out-of-town for money.
I wouldn’t blame lack of posts on your “rambling” at all. It is the weekend people do other stuff.

ChrisL

Rambling? That’s our collective middle name!

> Washington has a lot of pan-handlers who frequent the tourist areas.
> They ask anyone who looks like they are from out-of-town for money.

Huh, sounds like Plaka, except worse smelling.

hhp

Other stuff? What do you mean?
Oh, wait, you mean turn the computer off.
No [twitch], you couldn’t have meant that...

Actually, I’m off to the hardware store for various grades of sandpaper to unfinish my dining chairs & table. They’re just in far too good condition and it’s been bothering me for a while. Oh, and boxes, I have to fold up a bunch of boxes to ship some books & broadsheets off. Yeah, and visit my sister & her kids. And do some laundry. My god! There’s so much other stuff!