Kerning

Borja's picture

Hello,
I'm looking for professional help with a kerning in this logotype:
EDWARD'S
It's pretty hard to set that properly in such font.
Have I done that right?
Thank you!

Randy's picture

You've done pretty well. Tough to space a clarendon in general!
Here are a few ideas:

1. Use a real apostrophe (not the ' )
2A. There are two ways of approaching this spacing, one is to make things as evenly tight as you can and not worry about stuctural space troubles (like the AR combo). This is pretty much what you're doing now. One way you might help this is to modify the letterforms for better spacing. Reduce the serifs between the A and R. Or, eliminate the left R serif completely (might be too weird).

2B. The other approach is to space everything based on your loosest pair (AR). Space ARD, figuring where the D should go. Then add the W and so on. The overall spacing will be looser. You may decide the logo looses impact with looser spacing. The only way to get more even spacing without modifying letters is to loosen.

Hope that helps.
Randy

Randy's picture

Smarty pants fixed my straight quote for me! Oh well.
EDIT: Oh, don't worry too much about what I just said. Try the steps below.

R

Randy's picture

I just took a closer look at your word and I think you'll need to do a combination or A and B (above):

Try the following:
1. Begin by tightening every combination up so that it is tight but not touching.
2. Reduce the two serifs between the A and R. (then make tight but not touching)
3. Add a serif to the right side of the middle stem of the W (it is emphasizing the bad spacing on the WAR combo)
4. Add a little space between the W and A
5. Extend the serifs slightly on each D (but keep the tight but not touching). Add more to the ED, and only a very tiny bit to the RD. This will improve the spacing but keep the logo lockup nice and tight.
6. Narrow the point of the apostophe and wedge it down flush betweet the D and S, you may need to shave off the top.

Should give you a nice tight lockup.

R

Borja's picture

Hi Randy and thank you for help!

This font called Anubis and I'm not a professional typographer to spoil somebody's work by intervention in it's serif structure, so I accept playing with kerning only. Even though it's a logotype after all.

This is a real apostrophe. And I've checked all the signs included in the font. There is only such apostrophe.

Meanwhile I've tried the 2B instructions.
It works good with 3-4 letters. However putting near an additional ones cause an optical spaces disorder. So I have to work with all the letters together.

As it seems now on that file I've attached earlier - are there any small corrections to do before it's done???

Thank you!

dezcom's picture

Tighten the "DW"

ChrisL

Si_Daniels's picture

>This is a real apostrophe. And I’ve checked all the signs included in the font. There is only such apostrophe.

Use U+2019?

Full char map for the font in question...
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/dstype/anubis/italic/charmap.html

Si_Daniels's picture

...unless you're using the Mac TT which may well be missing this character...

Borja's picture

But it looks much better with that square apostrophe which I use than that comma-like one..

hrant's picture

Sometimes a straight apostrophe can indeed look better, basically because it "fits" better - and I think this is such a case. Bodoni is also a case where I think a straight apostrophe can usually work better. Blasphemous, I admit. :-)

That said, one should still know the difference, and how to find the "real" ones.

hhp

Borja's picture

OK?
Looks good?

tupper's picture

I would tighten up the WA pair a touch.

hrant's picture

Loosen "ED" and "RD".

hhp

ebensorkin's picture

tighten the DW a tiny bit too. It looks like it will be wrong if you look at the letters (DW) on their own but the effect will be more even that way I think. Much better.

Borja's picture

OK, done!
Thank you all!

hrant's picture

The result?

hhp

Nick Shinn's picture

It would be a good idea to move the apostrophe down, so that the top of it lines up with the top of the letters. (Randy, #6)
That will give flexibility to people using the logo in all kinds of layouts. Sticking out like that, it will sometimes get in the way.

Borja's picture

Oh I'm sorry hrant :)
I was frightened to recieve any additional remarks. That's because I realised that each designer has his own preferences regarding the correct kerning. I felt a bit confused. So I think the last decision has to be the one of my own.
Anyway here is what I've done

Nick Shinn, you are right about the apostrophe. I have already tried that. However, this logotype doesn't have any symbol attached to. So its' font and general shape must be recallable. and I think that apostrophe above the text helps the logotype be much recallable. It makes a kind of "jump" which is reminded first when I think `bout the logo. What do you think?

hrant's picture

The "DWA" (especially the "WA") is still relatively loose.
Also: I would make the left edge of the apostrophe totally vertical.

> each designer has his own preferences

I think that can be entirely true when it comes to overall tightness/looseness of Latin caps (compare Tshichold with Zapf), but the leeway for personal preference in variance of spacing is essentially very tight (being largely confined to perceptual mechanics, where all humans are virtually the same) . Unless you're going for a "messy" look, which is rarely a good idea (in Display work).

hhp

ebensorkin's picture

I agree with Hrant. That WA is too loose.

I wonder about the apostrophe - Do you need it? After all Saks is Saks not Sak's. Maybe there is a trademartk reason for going with it. Is there? If you do keep it I think the placement of the mark will signal the preceived expensiveness/class of the logo. Having it up there is jarring & looks like a cheaper/less classy mark. If this is a 'family restaunrant' as they euphemistically call themselves ( or some other business trading in value over prestige) and cheapness is the point. Maybe keeping it there makes sense in that case. If on the other hand this is a logo for a business where presitge & class matter then I would move that puppy a little lower.

Borja's picture

Sorry 'bout my english, what exactly means "loose"?
Is that means that there's too much space between theat pairs?
However, it doesn't seem like that when i look with half-closed eyes so the letters become a spots..

hrant's picture

Well, you did say you needed "professional help". :-)

hhp

ebensorkin's picture

Well we can't make you but...

BTW - Have you tried it that way yet?

Borja's picture

I'm sorry about the long topic and my poor knowledge in typography.
I just want to understand all this issue of correct kerning.

This is a brand logotype for a classic jeans company.
You convinced me to put the apostrophe on the same line with all letters. I've also fixed the spaces in DW and WA pairs.

Please, check me again guys.. Be so kind.

((HERE))

Thank you!

hrant's picture

A hair tighter on the "WA" and you're "set". :-)

BTW, you're sure you don't want to make the left edge
of the apostrophe totally vertical? Slight slants can
be distracting, and can spell technical trouble too,
like when rendered small/onscreen.

hhp

ebensorkin's picture

Looks serviceable to me now. This type is really tricky to space well. Unusually so. The only tweak I would suggest is maybe a hair les space between the first & 2nd letters. E&D.

I think this is better ( the lowered apostrophe) for jeans. Jeans are (oddly) a presitige item.

hrant's picture

Lookin' good.

Oh, wait, can I suggest another change? I'd make the right side of the apostrophe the same slant as the main italic slant (like in the stem of the "D") - you have it a little bit steeper than that. I'm like a pesky client now, sorry. :-/

hhp

Borja's picture

Eben Sorkin, I fixed that.

hrant, I've tried, but any attempt to fix the right slant of apostrophe spoils the elegance of this sign. It becomes a kind of foreign brick. I'm really concern not to entervene into the font structure..

Thank you very much!

hrant's picture

> It becomes a kind of foreign brick.

OK, I can see how that might be the case.
Either way, still looking good.

hhp

Borja's picture

Some sketches for the brand-book in the future as a summary of this thread: here.
Yeah, looks professional.. thanks you all. I wouldn't do that alone.

P.S.
Now starts the messy work with all tickets, labels, buttons...design.
Err.. a piece of challenge for me. Scary :(

Stefan H's picture

Boricello,

Sorry for making a late comment. I would make sure to NOT just use letters from the typeface. Make sure you alternate each letter in order to get the logotype unique! It takes a little bit of effort in illustrator or Freehand but it's well worth the work you put in. Will make the client happier in the end too.

Cheers

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