Ehw.

i agree with nick: yik.

Are you kidding? You haven’t a clue about designers or even people. The sterotypes you mention are right out of People magazine. Grow up and do real research. Create focus groups in your area with designers as the participants. It will cost you some time and money but you won’t spew the tripe you initially posted.

Don’t be so defensive, guys. The important thing here is that stereotypes do exist, and they’re useful (as long as we’re careful not to apply them blindly to individuals); we can help Ole refine -even redirect- his research. Don’t let the anticipation of the revelation of some negative traits (and there certainly are some) cause you to dig a trench, pout, stick your tongue out, etc.

hhp

Reply to Dan. Exactly. Stereotypes. What non-designers / general public, think of “creatives” or “designers” and not what designers think of themselves.
So far the research has demonstrated that at least 3 designers think the idea is stupid, this is
of value already. I appreciate the feedback negative or positive.

i’d say stereotypically, most designers are not stereotypical.

As I look at the last couple of posts I realize one thing about designers, that they often prefer to show an eye or partial view of their face when most others would shown a full face shot when posting a picture of themselves. Why? Is it because they would rather be their work that
identifies them or is it just to be different? Granted the last 2 post were me and Hrant, but the partial face shot and eye thing seems very common with designers. If nothing else, at least an interesting observation, although properly not part of the common stereotype I am searching for.

>the idea is stupid

Ehw = stinky, not stupid.

The partial face thing is because the space Typophile gives for icons is small and square, while faces are oblong and need a little more room.

Tiffany: Then why does so much of the stuff they make look the same?

hhp

> stinky

Yes, how dare you put a grande artiste in a box!
Even one that wants to put other people in boxes.

BTW, the Typophile icon does not need to be square.
And I’ve seen some quite huge ones.

hhp

Tiffany, your comment is so true and makes me think. I hate the stereotypical standards in stockphotography where for example just about any group shot of people seems to have to express racial diversity. In the same way it would be difficult for a stock agency to make fun of “stock” photography standards by doing exactly the same type of shots, I am a bit stuck here as well. I am not certain the concept is strong enough, so this is why I am doing the research. Regardeless of the outcome. I expect to learn from this. I could learn that most designers think even bothering to describe designer in a certain way with humor, external viewpoints such as the publics stereotyping, etc. is not desired.

The non-profit is a design community oriented organization and with zero funding. So why bother? As most organizations need at least some funding to do anything. Well let me elaborate a bit. There is already a current organization with 245 members sponsored by Meetup.com we already have meetings at least twice a month, online presence, etc... so why change it if it already works? Thje group is Meetup.com sponsored, and has it’s limitations.
The Meetup group was free, but now charges, so I am the only person paying, which is fine, but being that it is a Meetup, the infrastructure is not exactly designed for creatives, the site is not flexible, we can not add portfolios, and other desired features required/desired by creatives, so we a building a new site, presence, etc from scratch. This is what I need the research for, so as you mentioned earlier Dan, I should pay for research, etc. Well not an option.

the one thing that bothers me about stock photography ... and now I’m generalizing ... is how it appears that all people are beautiful and have time to do 3 hours of yoga per day.

Most groups only like being “described” (critiqued) by people from within the group. It’s a defensive mechanism.

BTW, why isn’t anybody bringing up the always-wear-black thing? :-) To be fair though, this hangout is more for type designers, not graphic designers... and the dress code of type designers seems harder to figure out. Personally, I try to wear shades of gray as much as possible.

hhp

Good thing he didn’t ask this about a year ago, then we could have responded that most designers are in touch with their inner children.

And.... it’s not about wearing black, it’s about creating notan.

>how dare you put a grande artiste in a box!
Even one that wants to put other people in boxes.

Hrant, why do you feel the need to occasionally act like a jerk?

>BTW, the Typophile icon does not need to be square.

“Maximum dimensions are 60x60”
So yes, it can be rectangular, as several do, but most artistes prefer a slightly larger canvas, and the square suggests possibilities.

Nick, where is Hrant allegedly being a jerk this time?

> why do you feel the need to occasionally act like a jerk?

I don’t want you to feel lonely?

> the square suggests possibilities.

If you want your image as big as possible. You know, commensurate with your Stratospheric Talent. And actually, the size limit is not enforced. See the Hairy 11, and the guy in the turtleneck.

The problem, of course, is Modernism (and I suffer from it too).

hhp

See, there’s another stereotype, that Hrant will act like a dick.

Lets get back to the sterotypes. I live in Manhattan in the upper east side and only wear black when I don my running shorts and never use sunglasses and I’m a male. Other people describe yourselves and the poster will get the idea we are not cookiecuter steriotypes.

i’m a white guy with an afro. does that help?

seriously.

Although not of these people are graphic designers, here are your type people...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/karlfrankowski/28686122/in/pool-typecon/

...no polo-necks, not much black, with the exception of Matthew a bunch of scruffs* really. A group in dire need of “Queer Eye for the Font Guy.”

Cheers, Si

*Fortunately myself and David Berlow were cropped otherwise the standard would have been even lower.

The designer look. Less is more and pragmatic. Often creatives of the male species often have very short hair. When doing an all nighter all the time a hair style that requires little maintenance or adjustment for apperance sake seem practical and from my experience often a common look of creatives at least in the northwest. It is the same in other countries and the rest of the US?

Thank goodness this short hair stereotype is ignored! ;^)

now about that short hair thing. . . There are a few of us here who have our hair short by attrition :-)

ChrisL

Well I have a feeling that Tiffany’s comment is directed at my hair specifically. It is where all my design power lies. Thanks Tiff. If you haven’t seen that doo check out the flickr pool.

I don’t wear black. My hair is dark enough.

I have long hair. I rarely wear black. I’m more of an earth tone guy. Don’t know why some are getting offended, I’m a designer and don’t consider this offensive at all. Its fun to look at stereotypes. One that has yet to be mentioned: judgemental. Designers can be very judgemental, the profession kind of asks for it.

Dan, no offense at this statement...but being a white male designer living on the Upper East Side is already a stereotype, though I think that’s the joke.

I HATE indie rock BTW, and love metal. I do however, have cravings for fried chicken and watermelon, but never usually at the same time. :)

I listen to opera and eat Souvlaky :-) I wear black for a joke (like at the typecon party). Wasn’t he Johnny Cash look a 90’s thing? I don’t do tatoos.

Oh, and Terry, I am a white male living in a suburban town but I do eat watermellon and fried chicken at the same time :-) You have not lived until you pick out watermellon seeds with greasy chicken fingers :-P

Terry, I forgot to give you my subway pass before I left—it still had 2 days on it dude! Bummer

ChrisL

”... what the most common perceptions are with regards to designers/creatives- aesthetics, dress code (or lack there of), body language, interaction, sleep patterns, attitude toward life, politics, clients, the law, etc…”

0. zero. people don’t think about designers. and they don’t care about what they eat; when they sleep etc etc.

>Nick, where is Hrant allegedly being a jerk this time?

So you think I’m an “artiste” too?

Sorry, but sensitive little old me didn’t find the negative stereotyping (vain, jealous) in Ole’s initial post amusing.

However, I’m quite taken with this:
http://www.adtrophies.com/

The only stereotype I’m aware of for type people, and this is more of a demographic than a stereotypical perception, is that they are disproportionately white and male, compared with the rest of the design profession, and the population at large.

Sibylle Hagmann recently wrote an interesting article on women and type design:
http://vcj.sagepub.com/current.dtl

“Sibylle Hagmann recently wrote an interesting article on women and type design:”

hey, what are you doing :) that was my next thread...

So we have the “type” stereotype as: defensive metropolitan white thin skinned balding men in poor physical shape. Who better for the job?

>poor physical shape

You can’t have seen the dancefloor at TypeCon.

> So you think I’m an “artiste” too?

The thing is, you obviously think so (even if you insist on using “artisan”, “craftsman” or some other more politically correct term to mean it), and that’s of course why you keep acting offended! That and you enjoy it.

> The only stereotype I’m aware of for type people

Type people, really nobody cares about. Graphic designers very much are in the public perception. And I’m sure that’s what Ole is considering here. Focus. Always lacking. I guess it’s too macho.

hhp

I’m not proud, and basically sterotypical.
I’m just a nerdy looking typographer!

————————————————————-
Yes, I’m old, but I’m back in style!

I’ll add my “ehw” here because your stereotypes are so superficial that they make your whole approach seem shallow. I don’t understand the need for the hair color, clothing preference, stereotypes. When I get a client brief suggesting that middle-aged moms will be the target user I don’t ask what color their hair is (unless it’s related to the product!) or what they eat for breakfast (unless it’s relevant!). I ask broader questions like how they shop, what activities occupy their free time, how they get their information, what is their income level. Do they make decisions for others. Et cetera.

I’d be more interested in the deeper stereotypes about designers. For example(s):

Why do designers put celebrity designers on pedestals believing they can do no wrong? (Maybe we don’t. I can think of plenty of examples where celebrities work is heartily critiqued, just not by any major design organizations.)

Why do designers (who presumably try to help others change) have a difficult time with change themselves? (We’re riding a bandwagon or two like most people we criticize.)

Why do most designers seem to lean leftward in their politics? (Do they really think politically or do they just want to question the status quo because it’s hip or because it’s what “good” liberals have done since the sexual revolution?)

When asked why designers want to succeed in design, why is the answer often “fame”? (Is it because answering “money” is unrealistic?)

As for me, I haven’t worn all black since. Geez. Since like 2001. =)

Alchion, you’re asking the wrong crowd here.

There’s a distinction between the cultural stereotype of any given group, and the perception of the characteristics of a specific group by a group member. The latter is usually quite diffuse, because:
a. members know their own groups quite well and have a sophisticated, many-facetted view of that group
b. people are almost never member of one and only one social category. So they’re not often going to think of themselves solely as stereotypical members of said social category, because in the image of oneselve, other categories “interfere” and add to the self-image
c. not only the image of a social category that one is a member of is diffuse, and gets more blurry around the edges, so is the actual category itself (perhaps with the exception of male-female, and even then...)
d. all of the above.

Then, on the other hand, there’s the social stereotype which is often very shallow, cliché, etcetera. The social stereotype is well known to practically all members of the culture in which the stereotyped group lives, and because of that, and all the stuff I mentioned above, it’s better to ask non-group members about the stereotype than group members.

Final remark: stereotyping in marketing campaigns often leads to the target (stereotyped) group being hurt, or dismissing the campaign as being shallow. I wish you much subtlety and humour, and I’m curious about the result ;-)

I totally agree with Joe. Forget the shallow stereotypes. There is really a big difference between graphic designers and typographers (mostly found on this site).

I’m a Dutch graphic designer and typographer, so I can’t really judge about the mentality in America. I would say here in Holland we have two kinds of designers; the ones that want to be in the foreground, and the ones that just love what they do and don’t need to be in the foreground.
The ones that want to be in the foreground dress ’different’, need their own little personality to be most shiny, feel that they are the middle point of any party and know everything better just because they are a designer. I don’t know many of them personally, I just see them from the outside. So perhaps I’m also wrong with my judgement. :-)
The other group is not that unnormal from most people. Perhaps clothing wise you would not directly identify them as a designer. But if you look carefully the magic is in the details. That pants are just a bit more special, those glasses just have a different shape and his/her voice is just a bit more loud.

I don’t feel offended at all by the earlier comments. I think your not that far off if you describe my first group of designers. Fortunately there are not that many of them out there.

In general I would say:

Designer love: beautifull things, to be trendsetters, to be innovative, to talk to fellow-creatives about what they do, to make the world a better and more beautifull place and to get paid while doing that.

Designers hate: stereotypes (unless they can use it for their work), not being understood, financial arguments with the client, rainy days and advertising agencies.

I hope this helps...

®ené

Also tired of Helvetica? Get an Insider with more personality

*** www.characters.nl { Typography to express yourself } ***

>The thing is, you obviously think so (even if you insist on using “artisan”, “craftsman” or some other more politically correct term to mean it), and that’s of course why you keep acting offended! That and you enjoy it.

Hrant, I’m really fed up with your crap.
I’ve asked you repeatedly to stop analyzing and insulting me, and yet you continue to do so. Do you really think it’s cool to call someone an artiste?
I AM offended, I DON’T enjoy it: once more, PLEASE don’t analyze my motives or call me names.

I wasn’t offended either, and I think designers definately have bigger ego’s than, um, ’ordinary’ people. And I can relate to what Rene says about attention to details (and advertising agencies, LOL).
I do wear quite a lot of black. But than again, I already did that before I even thought about being a designer, so I’m not sure it means anything.

Wait, don’t all designers wear bunny ears? Now I’m really embarrassed.

Joe,
There may be a few designers who hold visibly successful designers up as “Rock Stars” but that is true of any profession (Boot-licking is an old established custom.). Like most designers, I have labored in anonymity for my entire career. I feel I have done some very good work as well as some in the more odoriferous category. Like most designers, I have my opinions about the assorted “Rock Stars” in our field—some I hold in great esteem simply because I admire their work. There are other “Rocky-horror Stars” whom I perceive as quite ordinary in their work and I say so if the subject arises. I don’t feel it appropriate to name names here and begin a “Sucks / Doesn’t Suck” list. I think what we see (and what starts stereotypes) is that the most vociferous (read obnoxious) boot lickers in our profession ooze praise with such a phony veneer that we remember those people above all the many others who just go about their business. In a crowded subway car, we remember the guy who hasn’t had a shower in a month, not the rest of the people along for the ride. We really don’t “know” what designers as a group feel. We only have heard opinions stated by others. We can create self-fulfilling prophesies by only recognizing designers who fit the narrow stereotype and ignoring those who don’t. Perhaps what we need is a comedian like Jeff Foxworthy who has a routine where he asks “How do you know if you are a redneck?” and then gives answers involving trucks, beer, trailer parks, and NASCAR:-)

ChrisL

Much better posts, today.
As you were.

hhp

Mr. Sørensen;

if you are quite serious about your research into stereotypical profiles of “designer/creatives,” one generally doesn’t ask the focused group what “characterizes” them, n’est pas? (stereotypical use of foreign language clichés).

Stereotypes are often utilized by writers of television programs to quickly introduce ancilliary characters thus avoiding unnecessary character development.

So, a good place to research commonly perceived caricatures is to turn on the boob-tube (no, not porn videos).

For instance:

CSI (plus NY and Miami) victims in morgue

Interior designers - 2

Antique collectors - 5

Hair stylists - 1

Washed up actors - 3

Typographers - 0

LOST! survivors of plane crash

Doctors - 1

Ex-Military Middle-Eastern - 1

Recovering drug addict Rock Star - 1

Obligatory Asians - 2 (husband & wife)

Obligatory Afro-Americans - 2 (father & son)

Type Designer on flight back from TypeCon - 0

Sopranos business owned by mob

Exoctic Dancer Bar - 1

Sausage & Butchery - 1

Race horses - 1

Sporting Goods Store - 1

Type Foundries - 1

—————————————————————————
Yes, I’m old, but I’m back in style!

Off-Topic: You might be a Designer if:
You admire the type in Campell’s Alphabet Soup...
Oh those delicously rounded san serifs!

Back On-Topic: My Two Cents:
Designers are fiercely overprotective of big ideas. They will champion them at all costs... Very detail-oriented; “I wonder what type of wood grain is on that workstation desktop?”... Specifics are everything to them: the visual look of gloss inks, the tactile feel of certain papers, the correct usage of typography... For most modern designers, their life is married into technology. It’s an arranged marriage, but they accept it. Most designers that I know are very technologically literate... The designer stereotypes that I pick up on the most are always the ones on the edge of trendiness: VW/mini driving, coffee smoking, fashionistas. (I’d argue that this is a learned behavior)... Designers love seeing good design work, and will let people know about it, “Did you see the execution of that commercial!?!”...

I hope this helps out, just off the top of my head. Cheers. - Aron

“Type Foundries - 1”

Perhaps this guy was either smuggling drugs in job cases or using lead to weigh down the guys “Swimmin wit da fishes”
:-)

I see your point though, there isn’t much exposure of designers to the TV world. When people ask what I do and I answer “Graphic Design,” I get a confused look and the reply, “...and what exactly is that?”
Before we become stereotyped by the media, we need to be on their radar. Right now we are a faint blip about as visible as a Stealth Bomber;-)

ChrisL

PS: you left out the Lawyers and resturant owners bodycount :-)

PS: you left out the Lawyers and resturant owners bodycount :-)

True, but I thought they too often the butt of jokes.

As for other “creative characters” used on TV, I totally forgot about one of Jim Carey’s early appearances as the cartoon artist on “Duck Factory.”

I guess this demonstrates the type truly is invisible, and so are those who put their lives into it.

But the truth is... I just as soon stay off the radar. I wouldn’t want to be “racially profiled” and get falsely arrested for overusing swash characters.

———————————————————————————
Yes, I’m old, and I’m lovin’ it... sort of!

some really good posts. the ones that i like most are those that show that what really share is more inward, less outward. kind of a set of values as in “designers love ___, designers hate ___.” this line of thinking is also present in joe’s and aron’s posts. i think if you’re targeting creatives you’re better off focusing on work-related values rather than outward fluff which is harder to stereotype.

Nick Shinn, I apologize. I am not taking Hrant’s side. I think you both harp on too much about things, and neither side should get more attention for doing it. :^P I am sorry.

Err. No, I wasn’t thinking specifically of you, Shu, but ...

Stereotypes are what cause misunderstanding in between groups of people. I dislike them. It is easier to start out with a generalization, but if you don’t allow for getting to know a person individually you might miss out on an amazing friend/partner/employee/employer/etc.

I do wear black, all of the time. But, it isn’t because I’m a designer, it is because it is what I’m drawn to most.

Amen, Aron!!!

I think visual sterotypes don’t really fit with most designers. Even while I’m actually the bald, black-wearing, mini-and-oldtimer-driving, latte-drinking technophile from the textbook myself (but I was all that even before I became a «designer», so...), I know loads of colleagues who don’t fit that bill. They wear relaxed clothes, often with a hiphop or metal flavour, have hair of every imaginable length and drive every kinda car you’d care to imagine. The cliché above is the CD/AD-cliché from the 80/90s. I think there are actually more designers looking like your usual trendy street/hiphop youth than that whole Satre-thingamabob above.

And everything Aron said is true. Details are so fascinating, aren’t they :-D. I know, I annoy the HECK out of people, when I stare at photographs for hours, trying to decipher a newspaper in the background or something like that...

HD Schellnack

I think that the public still has the perception of the graphic designer as two completely unrelated stereotypes:

1) Black turtleneck, black slacks, black shoes, nerdy (but cool-looking) glasses. If male, a goatee or some type of well-groomed facial hair, if female, a severe hair-style, preferably black in color. This is the most common stereotypical image.

2) Flakey “artist” type. Crazy colorful clothing, messy/wild hair, usually a female because males dressed this way look like clowns. This could be a designer or an illustrator (the public rarely has an idea of what designers do anyway).

In reality, designers are a diverse lot (aptly demonstrated on this very board). Some are urbane sophisticates with leftist politics. Some are down-home folks more comfortable working from the office set up just outside their sprawling country home. Some are just regular folks doing a job that they are (more or less) passionate about.

Can you represent designers with the cliche of the black turtleneck sophisticate? Yes. It’s shorthand for designer. Non-designers will get it. If you show a typical designer (which isn’t typical at all) they could think anything — it’s a photographer, a rock star, a rapper, a farmer, a father/mother/son, etc, etc, etc.

As designers we use visual shorthand all the time in our work. This needs be no different.

I think the conversation would be better served by creating a catalog of what you consider visual shorthand and conceptual shorthand for designers. It used to be t-squares, x-acto knives, etc. Then it became the computer, since designers adopted computers quickly enough to completely change the industry. Now that everyone uses a mouse and a computer, that is no longer an accurate visual shorthand.

What do you all think?

Sean Glenn
Art Director
www.superunicorn.com

“VW/mini driving”

Oh, how I love mini-coopers. :) Aron was right on the money. One of my most embarassing moments was when I was insulted in public by Chris Rock and his writers from the Chris Rock show...(long story, not really worth mentioning). One of the writers said earlier that if you can’t find humor in a situation...”you’re too involved.” At the time I was mortified, but now that I’m older I agree with that. If you can’t laugh at yourself, you might be taking yourself too seriously.

I do also want to add that if you enter an arena of lions with a porterhouse steak around your neck, shouldn’t be too surprised by the outcome.

Chris, as a daily Subway rider I usually get a one month unlimited pass, I’m good ’til August 15th. :)

Now that everyone uses a mouse and a computer, that is no longer an accurate visual shorthand.

Yes it is, if it’s an Apple computer...

Oh, this just hit me:
Edna Mode, from The Incredibles.

hhp

I’m sitting here at my Powerbook at the patio table in my garden wearing a white T-shirt, boxer shorts, no shoes, and square-ish eyeglasses (I wouldn’t want to be caught dead wearing little round glasses and a black turtleneck) and I haven’t shaved in two days. I’m drinking a big gulp latte that I just made for myself and munching on some chocolate covered sunflower seeds. Is that stereotypical behavior and appearance?

Jeff Fisher :: Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

Author: Savvy Designer’s Guide to Success from HOW Design Books

Excellent post “Joe Pemberton ”

I would also add the question: Why do so many ’established’ designers enter design competitions? 

In my opinion competitions achieve nothing more than giving your ego a massage. As Nick Cave wrote to MTV, ”My muse is not a horse and I am in no horse race”.

Mmmmm, didn’t even know they made chocolate cover sunflower seeds. Aside from an ego stroke, design competitions also get you more jobs.

What is the sterotypical behavior and appearance of a market researcher? :-P

Oh and to answer your question, we’re too cool for school. Our lives are design, it’s quite an amazing thing really. Everywhere we go, we notice color combinations, good or bad, type design/setting, again...good or bad etc. etc. I personally love pointing out things to my friends who are engineers (the few engineers that I can put up with anyways) that they would never notice and make them realize how bad the kerning is on this poster or how these two colors vibrate and explain why they’re doing so!

The sub-species of type designer is actually quite like an engineer.

hhp

“Aside from an ego stroke, design competitions also get you more jobs.”

How so?

(Maybe this question should have it’s own discussion forum?)

The sub-species of type designer is actually quite like an engineer.

This is true, yet I never really thought of it that way.

I would also add the question: Why to so many ‘established’ designers enter design competitions?

More awards = bigger fees...at least, that’s the way Stan Richards, the king of Dallas designers some thirty years or so ago, seem to see it.

And, as long as we’re talking about stereotypes, let me add a curmudgeonly perspective on the designer/poseur...

• bad spelling
• bad grammar
• bad language
• bad attitude
• bad haircut

Did I miss anything?

“Aside from an ego stroke, design competitions also get you more jobs.”

How so?

Winning a design competition and being printed in a magazine is the same thing as advertising. In proportion to how much it costs to actually advertise in print magazines, the entry fee (if you were to win) is significantly less. Its not just an ego stroke, its also marketing.

And if you get in a magazine and they ask you questions get back to them fast. You might just get quoted in the text.

1.) Chocolate-covered sunflower seeds can be found at Trader Joe’s stores if you have them in your area.

2.) Design competitions do result in the most successful marketing for my business. My work is in something like 75 books now and now about 85% of my potential clients begin their interaction with me by saying: “I was in my local bookstore and saw your work in a design book...” As tbiddy mentioned it’s a much less expensive advertising/marketing tool than traditional methods - in fact, some competitions charge no entry fees. Jupiterboy also makes a great point - developing relationships with editors/writers can only add to your self-promotion efforts. When a magazine or writer contacts me for input or a quote I take care of it immediately. When writing my own book I contacted 50 designers to submit items for inclusion in the book - which would mean worldwide exposure - and only 8 responded. I still don’t understand how any designer would miss such an opportunity.

Jeff Fisher :: Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

Author: Savvy Designer’s Guide to Success from HOW Design Books

Did I miss anything? — oldnick

Yes...
- Faulty memory

and, yes...
- Faulty memory

On the subject of competitions:
It’s a little tricky on this one. If one does exemplary work and is recognized by his/her peers, that’s “warm and fuzzy.”

If one does work in order to impress his/her peers, that’s bad Karma. It’s also bad design, since there is another agenda attached to the solution of a (design) problem.

Only the individual who received the recognition knows if their craft is honest or if it is just to add plumage. He who adds plumage will eventually plummet.

———————————————————-
Yes, I’m old, but I can’t remember!

Oh to be edna mode! She was pretty cool. What a house! What cool inventions! What energy!

This is maybe the silliest thread on Typophile ever. Silliest premise anyway.

>what is the stereotypical behavior and appearance of a designer?

I’ll opt for Eva Marie Saint in North by North West. In fact, I’ll be Cary Grant, “advertising executive” (Vice President, Creative Services?)

Roger Thornhill: Now you listen to me, I’m an advertising man, not a red herring. I’ve got a job, a secretary, a mother, two ex-wives and several bartenders that depend upon me, and I don’t intend to disappoint them all by getting myself “slightly” killed.

Alchion:

I think that whatever concept you arrive at to present these designer stereotypes, that it has to involve humor. Something that if we saw it ourselves we’d laugh & maybe realize we’re a tad anal retentive.

Maybe produce an overly technical logo/identity that shows/pokes fun at the thought process of coming up with a logo? With Univers typeface as the logotype? Use stereotypical visual references such as pencil marks indicating a change in the logo or X marks denoting distaste by a fictional picky logo designer. The idea being that designers are perfectionists, but understand that your company’s image is what matters most.

You could execute this idea with TV commercials showing a somewhat younger designer dressed stylishly with designer eyewear. And he is talking/informing viewers about your cause, while rambling vague design principles/conspiracy theories that relate to the TV spot. Man... you could have some fun with that! Imagine the possibilities; Designer: “So we we’re going to print using this alien hybrid technology were the printed image is embedded into the molecular structure of the fiber... Embedded man! But The Man won’t pay extra, so we’re using our regular printer!” Follow up with a good tagline saying that while the designers might be crazy, their work is outstanding.

Hello Everyone,

I’m working with Alchion on this project, he mentioned the forum, and I thought I’d come have a look.

Some observations- stereotypes are a persistent pattern of human thought, dealing with them objectively is useful. Even if we don’t like being stereotyped. In working with various managers and dealing with friends, they do have preconceptions about what designers are like, just as we each have ideas about who best exemplifies being a designer.

Exploring this is useful; it helps us more effectively understand those we deal with. And we’d like your help with this. What is the most pernicious stereotype about designers you’ve had to deal with? What do you tell people when they ask “What are designers like?”

My worst - dealing with a marketing manger when contracting with a Very Large Corporation She felt I had no need to attend meetings about the websites I was supporting, she would just tell me what I needed to know. Her view was that I had nothing to contribute, I was just a tool with no grasp of business needs.

What are designers like - We’re dreamers. We’re trying to find out how to do something new. Whether it’s truely novel, or just looking for a new way to do something old, We’re trying to pull something out of our brains and make it real.

To that end, most of us have something different about us. We struggle with that creation. We all have something we fixate on, something that should be better. Whether it’s type, a website, or what have you. And while we are trying for new and different, we (being human) have herd following tendenies. I have no idea what is hip right now (I need to get out from behind the computer more), I’m sure there is something.

And of course there are differences. We see them because we always see differences within our groups that we are blind to when looking at groups from the outside.

Thanks for the useful comments, keep them coming.

-Jim

Thanks for the overview, Jim.

You just reminded me of situations I encountered regarding “business minded” managers.

It isn’t so much the stereotypic image that these types have of “designers” that become barriers to two-way communications, it’s the designers’ own ability to articulate concepts that equate to $$$ in profits.

For years now, I have positioned myself as a marketing “expert” in positioning products, services, and building mind-share within “target” markets.

See... it’s the vernacular, and with that I was able (most times) to participate as a full contributor and team member, and less so as the “flaky designer.” The skill of being articulate about concepts without losing your audience is worth cultivating. For the most part, this is something that many designers find difficult.

Remember, it’s not your “great ideas” and superb sense of design you need to express. It’s the ability to convince others that you can assist in solving problems that they obviously have difficulty doing themselves. This can only be done if you demonstrate a general understanding of their business situation and goals. So, like anything else, if you act stupid, you’ll be treated that way.

We are all the victims of some sort of stereotype, unfortunately some much worse than others. And to be sure, there are jerks and bigots everywhere and in all walks of life.

I’m not really sure where or what your mission really is, but nonetheless, remember whatever you do, do it for the greater good of all... designers, that is.

——————————————————————
Yes, I’m old, but not too old to learn!

I guess by “designer’ you guys mean graphic designers?
Then why not say so?
Another stereotype: identity crisis.

And what of;
fashion designers
interior designers
industrial designers
commercial designers
jewelry designers
landscape designers
stage/set designers
lighting designers,
sound designers, etc.

One stereotype fits all?

Two sub-divisions of graphic design which are quite specific:
news designers
web designers

And perhaps the most designerly stereotype of all: art director.

I’m not sure typographers and type designers belong in the same category as graphic designers. Typography is a (much older) adjunct of graphic design, as is illustration and photography, and now animation.

exhibition designers
textile designers

but:
hair stylists
makeup artists

Yes oldnick, you forgot ’bad breath’.

Unfortunately none of my clients read design award books.

(hmmm, is there a way to edit your poor typing/spelling in this forum?)

I’m in So. Cal. and interview and hire quite a few designers. I’m going to generalize what I see in my area. Oh, and also I am dealing strictly with the web.

- RISD/Art Center Type: Elitist. Speaking as if Design was a science. Referencing the history of design and and continually attempting to implement theory.
- New School Type: Designers that are self educated through just simply working in the field. Achieving successful design through interests w/o a theory based explanation.
- Hack Job Type: Usually old school that either went to college for design or made their way from print. Design isn’t successful but fills you up with a ton of crap theory to justify the bad design. These are usually freelancers that exploit the independent companies.

I guess I could probably expand the list but this is pretty much what I deal with.

I really don’t know where this whole wearing black, small black rimmed glasses and turtlenecks thing comes in. Id have to say that’s either a dated stereotype or maybe people on the east coast. It would like saying that everyone from the beach says “gnarly” and acts like Spicoli. A majority of the people that I interview and hire wear laxed clothes. A small percentage dress up. If anything they dress up within their fashion style. I interviewed a guy the other day that has insane design skills that was wearing a button up shirt, jeans and flip flops. I looked beyond the laxed clothes and more at his work. One being that his work was what I cared about and two - I’m not gay.

On attitude. I think that the internet has created somewhat of a rockstar vibe for some designers. Designers now can show the world who they are. Before you had to probably make a million calls around to find out who in the agency did that work. This has been good and bad. I guess you can slot the rock stars into two bins. Theres the ego ones that demand credit and high pay because they did a few big client sites. Then theres the designers with the artist type attitude that dont need that much credit but just want to continually do fine work. Upon hiring I have to always weed through that. I guess simply the internet has created a good amount of egos for people who don’t have the experience. Old time Ad agency guys used to hold the crown. Now its kids that are in the middle of nowhere that are getting the fame.

I do think though that by doing your research through something like this or the web in general you’re really going to have to also put in a b-s alarm in there for designers that are commenting that have only been in the industry for 3-5 years. A majority of them wont have a solid opinion that holds weight on where the industry is today. Its sort of like asking a freshman in college whats wrong with the world after they take a bong hit.

Anyways... Just my thoughts. Hey I have been in a bit of a bubble for awhile but see the turnstyle of designers in front of me.

http://www.designobserver.com/archives/002204.html

I remembered this article on Design Observer.
Tim

>I’m not gay.

No way, “jimmy”, you’re all business.

I just got a new studio space in a co-op and I had to meet with a tenant/designer I will be sharing space with. We talked a bit about what we both do, some small talk and towards the end of the conversation it was expressed that my co-tenant was trained in Bern Switzerland. The way this was expressed I could tell this was meat to impress me by implying superior understanding, status, etc... This brings me to another point I have been thinking about. That when it comes to DESIGN anything European is superior, including ex-patriots from there. I am from Denmark myself and on occasion something about Denmark comes up in conversation with a client and somehow I suspect this added knowledge that I am European (even if I moved to the States at 13) is an asset, just like a design degree would be.

- I meant to say that the perception is that anything European is superior, just be cause it is European.
I watched a new Ford Focus commercial the other day, and it is mentioned that the car has ” European inspired suspension”. What the hell is this? Well can’t matter much as long as it is European.

I suspect it would be to a designers advantage if living in the States to adopt a slight German/Dutch/Scandinavian accent. Come to think of it, a good British accent is even good.

>European inspired suspension

As opposed to the traditional American boat ride.

I think that being an expat can help you almost anywhere. The grass is always greener, and in my experience, people always seem to think that designers from someplace else are cooler (ok, this probably has to be qualified… I guess just anyplace else isn’t good enough)

For instance, here in Germany, many designers seem to revere all things Dutch (typefaces, designers, methods, etc.). This reverence stops the moment that soccer enters the discussion, though…

And even I’ve noticed that people expect me to have some sort of “strange” knowledge, since I came from the States. So I benefit, too.

When I was flying to TypeCon, a woman sitting nearby on the plane chatted with me briefly about graphic design. She working in marketing somewhere in Florida, and had heard something about German designers being “the best.” She said that I must be very talented to be able to get a job in Germany, and compete against all those designers with such great “German training,” etc.

__
www.typeoff.de

I’m in agreement on the European thing. One place that I can think of that both graphic designers and type designers can get instant credibility is if they say they’re from Switzerland.

I’m surprised no one has touched much on graphic designer’s behavior. I have found MANY people in the field that exhibit at least one of these personally traits:
1) High strung
2) OCD tendencies
3) Nervous/anxiety issues
4) A willingness to take a huge amount of disrespect from superiors because they feel it is necessary to succeed in the field
5) A willingness to disrespect others (as a superior) because they feel that aggression is necessary to be highly successful in the field

Also, Nick Shinn mentioned more traditional professions. As a graphic designer that’s also an illustrator and aspiring type designer, I’ve gotten a bit of disrespect from some older graphic designers where I recently graduated. Sometimes there seems to be illustrator/designer turf wars.

This could certainly go deeper than surface area subjects like looks. Though I would say here on the East Coast, its thick-plastic framed glasses, not thin wire framed. Which I have a pair of on right now. :)

“When writing my own book I contacted 50 designers to submit items for inclusion in the book - which would mean worldwide exposure - and only 8 responded. I still don

Leave it to an Angeleno to get to the point - thank you jimmy.

> “European inspired suspension”. What the hell is this?

I caught that too recently! What a farce. It’s just like when they say “Now back to Spiderman”, and they show the end credits. Basically, lying. Part and parcel of this culture these days. :-(

hhp

Now back to Spiderman”, and they show the end credits. Basically, lying.

LOL

> “European inspired suspension”.

It is all marketing BS. Other times they applaud a truck’s American toughness even though half of the parts came from somewhere else. It all swings around in a circle. Those of us old enough will remember when “Made in Japan” was a put down and “Made in America” meant quality. These days, check out the reliability ratings of Japanese cars and American cars and tell me what adjective fits which?
ChrisL

Nick - On the gay comment:
- Hey, I am a smart ass with the best of them... and youre no comedian. I was injecting a tad of humor but I assume that when it comes to design theres nothing funny.

“European inspired suspension”
Viewed from the other side of the Atlantic, American cars are not expected to handle corners very well (the generalisation is that with fewer corners there is less need for suspension that is based around small lanes and sharp corners but there is a need for very soft suspension giving a smooth comfortable ride for long straight roads). This dates from the Seventies when it had a point, I don’t know if this is still the case but it is a view that still persists, I suppose this is reverse engineering that perception.
If you check out the Design Observer article that I posted earlier you can see that Ford advertised the Focus in UK with a slightly camp, tetchy fashion designer.
Tim

I forgot to mention that many Japanese auto makers have plants here in the U.S.

Back on subject—are priests wearing black suits confused with designers? Are they if they wear “hip glasses?”

ChrisL

I don’t know about that… but I do think that there are a few designers who might be confused for priests :-/

__
www.typeoff.de

FYI, “papaz” means priest...

hhp

Well, you dress too colorfully. I was thinking more of designers who where tight buttoned down shirts, with jackets—all black of course. Sort of like Uwe Loesch. Or like what Keanu Reeves’ character wore in the second Matrix.
__
www.typeoff.de

Frank Juval has written something very amusing on the subject: http://home.cfl.rr.com/juval/care.html

>I assume that when it comes to design theres nothing funny.

I’m calling you on your homophobic “humour”.

There are some things that one shouldn’t laugh at (unless one is self-deprecating) and these are the physical characteristics people are born with: race, gender, sexual orientation, build.

That this might seem to be as old-fashioned as political correctness is probably because the dignity of causes such as equal rights, gay rights, and feminism has been weakend in recent times by exploitation from within, by gangsta rappers, queer-eye consultants, and glamor-model athletes.

> There are some things that one shouldn’t laugh at

You have your list, other people have theirs.

I personally don’t make fun of homosexuals, but I do make fun of intellectual pansies (of any gender or sexual preference) and people who go out of their way to feel offended on behalf of groups they don’t even belong to. And whining about that isn’t going to help you, me, or anybody else. You cannot force-feed behavior; work on your own tolerance instead. Oh, and work on content too.

hhp

>I do make fun of intellectual pansies (of any gender or sexual preference) and people who go out of their way to feel offended on behalf of groups they don’t even belong to.

But what if someone had friends or relatives in the group they didn’t belong to, would you excuse them your derision in that circumstance?

Nick -

Good point. Being gay myself, I’ve always appreciated friends, family, industry peers and others expressing the fact they have been offended by the insensitive comments/actions of others. Another example: The fact that I am not African-American does not in any way lessen that I am offended when individuals make racist comments in my presence - and I will let those making such comments know how I feel immediately. In fact, I’ve asked people to leave parties/dinners at my home for making racists jokes or comments.

- J.

Jeff Fisher :: Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

Author: Savvy Designer’s Guide to Success from HOW Design Books

Being concerned about an oppressed minority is one thing (a very good thing), for example how I often bring up the plight of American Indians. But being offended is fake; essentially, it’s acting offended. And tripping over yourself to feel such offense... requires therapy. In some people it really seems like a Munchausen-type syndrome or something!

I myself have always been a sucker for siding with underdogs. I remember when I first moved to the US as a kid, they put me in summer school; I knew nobody there; but when I saw a kid being teased and pelted with stuff, I went and stood by him, not even knowing if he wasn’t a nasty bastard; I remember being asked why the hell I was doing that; but I don’t exactly remember my reply - probably because my English was lousy. However, I was not offended; I was not eager to raise the Call of the Whine. I don’t know for sure if Jimmy has anything against gays or not; it doesn’t much matter; he could have something against Armenians, and I still would be able to look beyond that (as was once the case on Typo-L, about 6 years ago). Each and every one of us is a product of circumstance and the behavior of other people. When it comes to individuals, be more eager to tolerate than to complain, to focus on the content instead of the ripples. It is injustice and discrimination in the systems that we need to focus on.

hhp

BTW, I read that Hagmann article this evening, and besides the fact that her recommendations were pretty mundane, I was quite perturbed by the persistent conflation of typography/graphic-design and type design. The two are as different as... men and women? :-) In fact it would have been quite interesting if she had reflected on the fact that there are more women than men in graphic design, but quite few women in type design. Maybe the respective natures of the two tasks has something to do with it? Yes, I know saying such things banishes me from running for public office. What a monumental shame...

hhp

Wow... never thought that the weakest dose of humor actually created a back and forth. I guess you could add touchiness to irrelevant details to the designers mental baggage.

I was simply saying that I wasn’t checking out the same sex person for details on his attire. I could apologize I suppose but it wasn’t a slam on gay people.

Got a gay cousin, gay friends and live in a predominantly gay area.

Just move back into the thread and dont put any emphasis on that one reference to a cultural group.

Where’s a moderator when you need one?

It should not be left to me and Terry to point out that an anti-gay comment (unintended though it may be) is out of line on Typophile. And Hrant should receive some censure for saying that I need therapy.

Hrant should receive some censure for saying that I need therapy

Lighten up, Nick: it seems pretty clear that alot of the participants in these forums could use therapy, myself included. But maybe I see things differently because I’m married to a therapist (family discount!).

There isn’t room for anit-anything on these boards, unfortunately we are all sensitive humans that sometimes inadvertantly say insensitive things. Either get back on topic or we can simply close the thread. — Please point the comment out to me that supposedly started this need for a moderator?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4735389.stm

hhp

Jeff brings up a good point. I AM African-American, and I DO get offended when I hear homophobic comments or comments to any other minority group (although they don’t have to be a minority group for it to be offensive.)

I grew up in an alpha-male type of city and environment and I just have zero tolerance for those kind of comments. “But I’m not gay” is something that many alpha-males say (though I’m not implying that you are). Making an announcement about your sexual orientation in my eyes is never really necessary, unless someone is directly hit on by someone of the same sex (depnding on the situation it might still be unnecessary). By making a proclamation, (however differently you may think on this issue) implies that there is something inherently wrong with being gay. Take your comment and insert the word straight, Polish, Black, Indian, Californian or any other group and see how far it gets you. Its just plain offensive. And it didn’t look like anyone was hitting on you.

That’s how I feel...and we can now return to the thread. :)

> I just have zero tolerance

That’s the real problem, in proportion to the heterogeneity of a society.

> implies that there is something inherently wrong with being gay.

No. It implies that there is something different.
Don’t be afraid of differences, relish them - otherwise we’re luke-warm mud.

hhp

“That’s the real problem, in proportion to the heterogeneity of a society.”

Intolerance, should not be tolerated. :)

No. It implies that there is something different.

Differences don’t have to be implied, they should already be apparent.

Thanks Hrant. I know your simply chiming in but youve explained the point well.

Im surprised no one picked up the fact that the guy who started the thread was talking about people having sex in typographic positions.

Holy moley, this is a super great thread! There are so many valid points on here that could be discussed ad nauseum. I wish I could comment on a lot of these past posts:

When I was going to design school in the early 80s, everyone had a stereotypical idea of what an artist was. In fact, I remember seeing some graffiti on the art building that read “You’re not an artist, you just dress like one”. And I think the all black dress code might harken back to that time. I don’t see many designers all in black anymore and I teach at an art college. We have a small percentage of goth dressers now and get everything from jeans and tshirts and long hair to dye jobs and hand-made clothing. Designers like to express themselves in different ways. One commonality I do find is the love for all things design - as someone mentioned previously.

I can remember going shopping with a girlfriend of mine who is a furniture designer/builder. We were in a shop and I turned round to see a beautiful fabric on a shelf. “Look at that!” I mused and reached for the fabric. “Oh, I know,” cooed my friend, as she reached for the shelf and ran her hand along it “I think this is curly maple!”

I think (but could be wrong since I am in the thick of it) that most design (be it graphic, industrial, type, etc.) used to be shrouded in a bit of mystery. That is, most people couldn’t wrap their heads around what design was and what differentiated one designer from the next. Years ago, when I told people that I was a typesetter and I sat in a room by myself along with a linotype machine that filled it, people just stared at me. “So you’re an artist?” they’d ask. “Um, Okay, sure”, came my reply. I think that with the advent of user-friendly software that most people can buy and understand, being an artist/designer has become more common - people understand what it is that we do. They see the results of it and can appreciate our roles. (I’m sure I am not speaking for type designers as I do remember the speech that Erik Spiekerman gave re: When people now ask me what I do for a living, I tell them I am a brain surgeon and they are happy with that answer and walk away). But maybe the first step here would be to differentiate between kinds of designers.

As for me, I am a typography teacher, graphic/web designer and mother of 2. I do my best to stay current with the design industry and love reading and surfing the web. I love doing anything design related. I sew vintage style dresses and might have 2 or 3 pieces of black clothing somewhere in my closet. I have about 50 pairs of shoes, I kickbox regularly and I paint and exhibit when I can. My hair has varied from time to time. My husband is an industrial designer and audiophile who drives me crazy with his record collection and constant speaker building and amp testing. When he’s not renovating some part of the house and neglecting all of the details, he’s off mountain biking or bicycle racing. He’s involved with human factors to pay the bills.

How stereotypical is all that? I haven’t a clue. But please, keep the posts coming - they are great to read!

”...Erik Spiekerman gave re: When people now ask me what I do for a living, I tell them I am a brain surgeon and they are happy with that answer...”

For years, I having telling the same kind of people at parties that I am a plumber. I guess I should have aimed higher? Perhaps Type High?

ChrisL

No, no. At parties, you tell them you’re a talent scout.

hhp

Oh yes, Chris, you have to aim higher.. not that there is anything WRONG with being a plumber!

When I went through Customs on my way to NYC, the agent asked me what I was doing in the big city. I answered that I was going to a Type Conference. “A Tape Conference”? she asked. “No, Type... letters, alphabets...,” I tried to explain. She just looked at me deadpan. The next time I was asked why I was in NY, I replied, “Conference on Letters”. The gentleman I was speaking to raised an eyebrow, “Leather?” he said. “No, no!,” I said, “LETTERS - L E T T E R S!” The third and final type someone asked me, I replied “I’m a designer here for a design conference”. That was easy!

It has taken some time, but most of my clients with whom I have a long standing relationship with now know that the conferences I attend have to do with typefaces. However, I doubt I’ll ever get them to understand why people gather to discuss something like typefaces. “You mean like the fonts in Word?”

LOL!!! My wife would love it if I said that :-)

ChrisL

Oh man, Tiff - that is great!!!

Just before bedtime one night, I was reading a book on Essays by typographers. I turned to my husband and said, “You gotta hear this, it’s great” and read him a passage. Minutes later, I looked over and he was fast asleep. I gave him a push and said “Hey! Did you miss that?!” Without turning over he answered, “Hun, it’s like you’re reading out of the Sears catalogue to me.” Sigh.... Us designers have to stick together...

I loved it when Erik Spierkman said something along the lines of: “When people ask me what I do and I tell them that I design typefaces, they ask me why I bother when all I have to do is use the ones that already come supplied on the computer.” That was precious.

www.elitedesigners.org

I love the “Elite Designers” site!

ChrisL

That site is great Miles, thanks!
(Now I hate to be elitist but should someone tell Mr. Van that he is using tick marks instead of quotation marks on his home page and if he’s going to use them properly, he should really try hanging punctuation?)

Don’t worry Andi, he’ll get the hang of it :-)

ChrisL

Chill, dude. Some of us looking into this research ARE in an ever-expanding, ever changing group of folks who meet in person & hang out. Some of these do have some of those qualities.

The goal here is to see what people think and want to add to increase understanding and get accurate research from folks who live in areas where we can’t meet in person, not to get exclusionary negative comments. Thanks. :0)

This has to be the most inane topic and premise I have ever read on a blog. Wow!

... and that makes it special, so thanks for dredging it up, dude. ;P

-=®=-

Tom I can’t imagine what you were searching for to find this thread - but joining Typophile so you could bring it back to life was not a good move. Sorry :-(

Anyway welcome to Typophile! The only way is up.