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The swastika is a symbol. One doesn
> the swastika will eventually be accepted too. It will, one glorious day. > the Nazi flag Who said anything about that? We're talking about the Swastika symbol. > In the West the Nazi swastika is kept alive not by Jews. On the contrary: Jews (like Heller) use the symbol more than anybody else. This is a fact. > Those who use it in the West offend Jews, and know it and don't care. This is false on two levels: 1) Most people who use the Swastika in fact do it to offend Jews. 2) Some people use the Swastika because they want to prove a positive point. That's balls. > Designers and type designers (who make a living out of them) shouldn
"and please stop repeating yourself" - of course not!!!! till you'll learn how to post!!!! and how to use Public Forums!!!! "why not?" so start a new thread : The Swastika and Prejudice. the swastika and symbols. And compare. Heller to Quinn. Quinn to Wilson etc etc etc. David Hamuel
Designers and type designers (who make a living out of them) shouldn
Some people use the Swastika because they want to prove a positive point. That's balls What positive point? Assuming you
Matha, DID YOU READ: 1. Malcolm Quinn ??? 2. Thomas Wilson ??? 3. Norman Brown ??? 4. Norman Walter ??? DID YOU READ ??????????? David Hamuel
DID YOU READ ??????????? What is this, a fit? Why are you shrieking?
This is a question. to a person. that studied HISTORY. and - teaching HISTORY. a scholar. a scholar that does not know how and why it is important to compare!!!! David Hamuel
But what about context? Context matters, of course. And there are coincidences - but a sensitive person, perceiving how it turned out, would change it. It all depends on the
And on this eve of the Jewish New Year, best wishes to all for a "shana tova u'metukah" - a good and sweet year.
> What positive point? It depends. Like there's a guy (Canadian) who has the Swastika tatooed all over his body, but he's not anti-Jewish. (I don't use "anti-Semitic" here because Arabs are Semites too. BTW, Hitler was anti-Semitic: he hated Arabs too.) >> "vast jewish conspiracy" I wouldn't call it that. 1) It's not that vast. Armin for example hasn't been given "The Talk", apparently - but he's from Mexico. 2) "Conspiracy" seems to me to mean there is intent to hurt others. In this case I think there isn't. But the duplicity is still there. As with any form of propaganda. And everybody does it. It's just more offensive when the people doing it are the ones already in power. It's not a matter of respecting a symbol (like you say, they don't deserve any such emotions), it's a matter of respecting your fellow people, and cultures - of not beating them to a pulp when they're already lying unconscious on the ground. "Pressing need"? To salvage the Swastika, not really. To salvage blackletter, a little bit, yes, although nothing like the pressing need to curb the modern-day Nazis - and I don't mean those impotent neo-Nazis, I mean the Axis of Evil: US, Israel, Turkey. That's proof right there that religion isn't the root of the problem, since the three major religions of the world are apparently united against humane living! :-/ So I'm not saying that the Jews should let go of the Swastika while others continue using it against them (as William pointed out - even though the Nazis are gone while Israel is currently messing up the Middle East - so it's different), I'm saying that there has to be less greed -and more honesty- in using it. We don't want another Holocaust, so back off - it's pretty simple. The world doesn't want you dead, they just want to live happy lives themselves - don't be paranoid to point of becoming Hitler yourselves. -- David, Matha doesn't want to answer you question - get over it. If you think a person can't have a rational discussion about the Swastika without having read those books, show us why. hhp
To salvage blackletter, a little bit, yes I can agree with this, but the problem with blackletter is more complex: to use that tired dichotomy, it has been
What is this debate about?
> it has been
i found a lot more current Blackletter uses at the grocery store, especially in the liquor section. Corona, Grand Marnier, etc. etc. the Del Monte logo... If anyone doesn't already know it, there's a special place here at typophile for Blackletter stuff, moderated by John Butler. http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/4077/4803.html?1063668156 To clarify, Heller wrote "fraktur" and some of the current blackletter usage is not necessarily "fraktur"... * sorry to interrupt *
I'm glad you edited your post. For one thing, a bad taste in the mouth is not as bad as having your house blown up by an F-16. During Ramadaan. hhp
Don't get me started, Joseph. You'll all be at retiring age before I'm finished. Queen Victoria (The 'Famine Queen') is our symbol for the Great Famine. Usually she's done up like something out of an Edgar Allen Poe tale. Here she is struggling with Hibernia/Erin in 1890. Matha
Here she is again in the early 1900s up to more nastiness: M.
It's just a question of time, guys. Until there's not a generation of young people for whom blackletter (or the swastika for that matter) has no inherent symbolic meaning (and no bad memories), we won't be able to use it in the same way we use other symbols. It's happening already with blackletter in hip/trendy arenas, it will also happen with the swastika. I haven't read Heller's book either, but maybe, as a historian, the Holocaust is still too present for him. In this case his opinions wouldn't be prejudist, just misinformed ones. It would be a personal issue. ps. I can understand the feeling; growing up in Spain just after the transition from military dictatorship to democracy, the Spanish flag became a symbol for the right wing fascists opposed to the change. I still cannot see the flag of my country and feel proud about it, no matter how joyous the occasion (ie. Real Madrid winning the soccer Champions League) ;-)
I still cannot see the flag of my country and feel proud about it, no matter how joyous the occasion. I know how you feel. The Irish flag has a similar effect on me. Especially when it gets waved around in unexpected contexts. A friend of mine recently went to a U2 concert and apparently someone threw Bono an Irish flag and he sang a whole song to it. Held it in his hands and actually sang to it! And he'd be the first person to condemn Nationalism. There were all sorts of Nationalist flags in the crowd too - Basque and Breton mostly. Fortunately, I went the next day.He sang like shite, but not to a flag. At least there's no chance of seeing an Irish flag at the final of the Champion's League. M.
as a historian, the Holocaust is still too present for him. I can understand that too. He's far too close to his subject and the result is more of a personal commentary (as plain*clothes suggested earlier) or a cri de coeur than history or criticism. Unfortunately he isn't being totally honest with himself or his readers about that. In fact, Allworth Press are problaby more to blame than Heller himself for disguising a pamphlet as a history book. M
> the Holocaust is still too present for him. Well, the Armenian Genocide is about 30 years older, but it's still totally present for most Armenians (including me), not least because Turkey still denies it, and no reparations have been made - not to mention all our ancestral land that we lost after more than 2500 years of living on it. The reason 5 million out of our 8 million population lives outside our [now-tiny] country is because of the Genocide. Plus Turkey and Azerbaijan have been imposing a trade blockade for many years, with the latter carrying out pogroms of Armenians as well. Why? The Axis of Evil won't let us get ahead. -- BTW, when I was in Pe
William, "Of course, within the context of a Hindu temple (where I believe the symbol is not in a circle and normally 'rotates' other way) it is ancient and not offensive." Good! So we agree. There is nothing "necessarily" offensive about the swastika form. When working with Fleurons the interlocking swastika form is persistent when building suites of Fleurons. "You read the correctly". I suggest there is something organic, chemical and structural about the form itself. I have discussed this at length with a mathematician. My first typographical masterpiece was a "not" so hidden "Swastika form" It was a major artistic development for me. People driving Harley Davidsons did not buy them. Al Segal, a Vancouver rare book collector did. A "Jewish" furniture manufacturer. It did not remind him of the Holocaust! It was not ULT!, VERBOTEN!, and JUDE Now Hrant has reminded you of one atrocity. I remind you of another, the plight of the Palestinians. It is a short study in racism. ............................. Hrant, You don't seem happy about some situations in the world. Maybe you are a George Bush fan. I hate to ask you a favour, but I am hindered in some research for an article I am writing. You seem to have ways of getting information. Houston, but most likely Orlando. A company called "Arbusto". "Arbusto" is "bush" or shrub in Spanish. Here is what the question is. Arbusto apparantly was named after George W. "Bush". It is reported that "Arbusto" is/was George Bush's oil company. His partner/shareholder was Salem Bin Laden, "Osmar Bin Ladens" eldest brother. Is there any way you could verify that for me? Keep in mind that Salem may have invested under a corporate name. Perhaps an airport. Gerald Giampa
Hrant, I forgot to mention, Salem was an associate/friend of George W. Bush. "pals". Gerald Giampa
Matha, You say Heller does not like German Fraktur. Which womb mothered "German Fraktur". Probably this. http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenberg/web/pgsdbl560/1_009010_009b001r.html It's not old English. It is German. Medieval, sorry, things are not that finite. .......... German Fraktur type (as opposed to other medieval gothics, such as Old English) still evokes iron-fisted authority. The words ULT!, VERBOTEN!, and JUDE! are frightening when spelled out in these letterforms. Actually, anything set in Fraktur, even the most harmless words and phrases, takes on a decidedly ominous look. ....... Maybe Heller finds the Good Book decidedly ominous? I just can't tolerate, intolerance. Gerald Giampa
Is there any way you could verify that for me? Keep in mind that Salem may have invested under a corporate name. Perhaps an airport. Gerald, I know Hrant knows everything but just in case, here's a book that should help. Ben Laden : La V
Matha, "Ben Laden : La V
> You don't seem happy about some situations in the world. It's more than that - I have a problem with the world's overall direction, possibly since the Elightenment, but at least since the Industrial Revolution. I'm [essentially] agnostic, but these words by Catich about Gill ring so true: "He hit on the basic weakness of western culture and life of the past five centuries. He saw clearly thirty years ago what only a few are dimly realizing now. He spoke out against the disunity (dis-intergration) of man; a state in which man is not only divided from God and neighbor but is divided even within himself." -- In Castillian "bush" is indeed "arbusto", but I don't know of any such connection (although it wouldn't be surprising). Part of the bin Laden clan is actually involved in either Bechtel or Halliburton (I forget which - it doesn't really matter anyway), two firms conveniently making a lot of money off of Iraqi misery at the moment. The degree to which the financial interests of the bin Laden clan are intertwined with those of Big White Business is indeed telling. In fact I don't think it's crazy to at least suspect that bin Laden and/or Saddaam (especially the latter) are on the US payroll. If you'd only seen the strange bedfellows that war makes as I have in Lebanon... Anyway, this is getting too far off-topic. I think we should talk about how to get Heller to back off from defaming blackletter. Maybe a petition? hhp
Maybe a petition? Even better. A pamphlet set in Fraktur. We could all contribute something. Matha
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenberg/web/pgsdbl560/1_009010_009b001r.html Nice link, Gerald. I got to see a Gutenberg Bible in Paris last year. A very beautiful book indeed and in surprisingly excellent condition. M.
> A pamphlet set in Fraktur. :-> We should set it in Hans Heitmann's "Fraktoer" font*: it has very texty color, and nobody can say the caps are illegible. * Bottom of http://www.themicrofoundry.com/image/s_fraktur2.gif hhp
Hans Heitmann's "Fraktoer" font and a smashing font it is too. I'm game. A collection of short letters to Heller set in this font would make the point, I reckon. M.
1) I don't have the font, and I don't even know anybody who does. I made that image from a scan that Peter Bain once gave me - so you might try asking him for leads. 2) You should get John Butler in on this (even though politically he's incompatible with you and me). 3) I'm not into convincing individuals directly (unless it's a traffic cop giving me a ticket or something). But if somebody starts it, I'll gladly contribute. hhp
1) I don't have the font... There's always a snag. 2) You should get John Butler in on this (even though politically he's incompatible with you and me). He must be on holidays or something. Otherwise he'd already be in here posting stuff. As to being politically incompatible with the two of us, he wouldn't be the only one. But politics aside, this would definitely be his sort of gig. Unless, of course, Heller is his hero. But I suppose that's not very likely considering their typographic incompatibility. 3) I'm not into convincing individuals directly.... If people are interested - and I think there may be a few - there mightn't be any need for convincing. Contributions shouldn't be too difficult to come across either and John Butler would be the ideal chef de projet to coordinate things. Matha
OK, start a new thread in the blackletter SIG. Something like "Frakturstreit", which apparently means something like "broken typefaces don't need fixing". (I don't know German, I got that from Bain.) hhp
OK, start a new thread in the blackletter SIG... I've left them a note. Couldn't remember 'Frakturstreit', though, so I called it 'Steven Heller gone to far?'. They'll be asking for my CV again. M.
Hrant, Yes, we should stick to the topic. It's so easy to wander. http://www.unknownnews.net/2001-1.html So, fill me in on this Heller theory. Is his complaint that Fraktur is offending "his peoples"? Or, is Heller proposing that Fraktur embodies some mystical evil spirit? Is there dragons in there or something? I better keep my lights on at night. This house if full of Fraktur. Trust me, my wife owns a Finnish used book store. http://www.themicrofoundry.com/image/s_fraktur2.gif You know fellows, I just looked at that. I think perhaps the lower case "i" is actually a very underfed one eyed cyclops. I better go get my elephant gun from the closet. Now that I think about it, I used to print wedding invitations in types resembling in some fashion that Fraktur stuff. The marriages didn't seem to last long. Maybe I should have stuck to Caslon Italic. You know they didn't last long with Caslon either. Is Caslon evil too? You know, I think I figured it out, it's not Fraktur, it's this: Column left, heading! http://www.lanstontype.com/Ink.html Cleaned with this. http://www.lanstontype.com/WashUpBottle.html Left hand column, heading. Off of this. http://www.lanstontype.com/Windmill.html Self explanatory. After you printed this. http://www.lanstontype.com/GoudyThirty.html Am I evil because I designed this book? I am going to hell, I know that, but surely not for these reasons. So I am assuming Heller is not a racist. You just know how I feel about racists. So Heller must have explained his superstitions about Fraktur. It will be wasted on me though. I stopped having my palm read in the sixties. Still, I am curious. You know, this is the "black arts". Gerald Giampa
still? David Hamuel
Matha, are you just jealous that there's no symbol for the potato famine? (That was supposed to be funny. I can play that card because I've got some Irish blood in me.) Seriously though, based on the examples you posted, it seems like in some cases Heller is stretching. But, that's all I'll say since I haven't read his book and don't know what else he says about it. Finally, I just want to agree with Rodolfo (Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 8:08 am) and sit down.