Jon and Dawn...these are excellent ideas and not to
sidetrack from them...

but in the interest of newbie learning,
I can point out a few sites that might have articles of interest.

www.typographi.ca/

Stewf and Joshua's typography journal is required reading
if you already don't go there. Also, follow some of the
links off to the right to explore more type sites.

Nick Shinn has some great articles on his site
written for a graphic designer audience.

www.shinntype.com

Also,

www.creativepro.com

lots of writing about type by Jon Berry

www.underware.nl
Click on "type basics"

http://briem.ismennt.is/

Gunnlaugur SE Briem of Iceland and his type design tutorials.

at the bookstore...

from the GD perspective,
books by Robin Williams. books by HOW. Pretty
much any of the Graphic Design books have something in
them to learn or typography to see.

also,
Typophile has its own library

http://typophile.com/books/

and its own librarian, Tiffany!

Two books to seek out early on:
* The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst
* Type & Typography by Phil Baines and Andrew Haslam.

X off some of those things and you'll have a decent starting point.

I'm sure I've left some stuff out and put some stuff in
that doesn't belong.

bj

it sounds like you want someone to do all of the work
for you -- not that I wouldn't love that scenario as well.

the difference between good and bad typographers is
the same as the difference between good and bad
type: commitment. you can't force someone to be
passionate about what they do, and you can't
compress volumes of typographic knowledge into a
quick how-to. for those who want to learn and will put
their learning to use, we can recommend some
invaluable resources for their professional growth. for
those who don't bother to search out those resources,
they will continue to be poor to mediocre typographers,
and none of us will fault them for that decision.

in addition to bj's great suggestions, I would add the
following (by no means making the list complete):

Haley, Allen. _Hot Designers Make Cool Fonts_ : a
terrible title, but a nice look into the designers behind
quality faces.

Tschichold, Jan. _Form of the Book_ : the culmination of
years of intense research and practice -- nothing like
_The New Typograhy_. a collection of essays that are
short and to the point. don't attempt book typogaphy
without this one.

Swanson, Gunnar. _Graphic Design and Reading_ : a
collection of essays that covers many of the debates
that we obsessives tend to get into. includes Warde's
classic Crystal Goblet illustration and a piece by
Typophile's very own Hrant Papazian on his wild and
crazy alphabet reform concept. I really enjoy reading
this one!

Carter, Rob et al. _Typographic Design_. a superb
overview from the designer's perspective.

Meggs, Phillip. _Type and Image_ : a more broad view
from the designer's perspective. as the title implies, this
gets into the whole visual package and even deals a bit
with semantics.

> "Which Bodoni?" or "Which Garamond?"

There's a book btw that tries to do that:
"Type: the best in digital classic text fonts" by Tom Carnase and Baruch Gorkin (Graphis, '95).

It's mostly a glorified -and limited- specimen book, and might even be seen as too narrow in perspective (like you'd never see a Storm font in there), but it could still be useful.

hhp

plain*clothes: First I would like to say thanks for the additional titles. I already own Graphic Design and Reading, and will be adding the others to my long (and hopefully interminable reading) list.

I also want to say: No, I never said I want somebody to do all the work for me. Never. I don't want somebody to do all the work for me. I can do it, but sometimes I need to be shown how. I am sorry if that's the impression that you have come away with. I also don't think that you can compress volumes of typographic knowledge into a quick how-to.

I do think that there are few examples that compare the deatils and results of using good quality type with rip-off type and would love to see more. I believe that asking after somebody's methodology and process in fact shows a sincere desire to develop skills, find best practices, and shows real dedication.

I know myself enough to know that I take exception far too quickly to many fair minded suggestions. If you feel I have done so here, then accept my apologies in advance.

Hrant: Thank you too for your suggestions.

Joseph: An excellent idea. I will volunteer. I imagine a summation of those threads would be the most useful. No small amount of work but no way to do it but start. Look for my initial post with my plan soon.

"I believe that asking after somebody's methodology
and process in fact shows a sincere desire to develop
skills, find best practices, and shows real dedication."

I think my brief post sounded sharper than I intended. I
think you (and the rest of us here) are going about it
the proper way. by sharing our knowledge and asking
the basic questions, we can establish and challenge
foundations.

I was attempting to say that you have to read some
essential typographic texts and really study their
implications. until you have done so, no comparative
discussion will be very effective -- you'll get the idea for
the faces compared, but you still won't understand the
underlying theories. that said, I think the list you have
generously volunteered to assemble will be a great
resource for those who want to investigate the
theories they have read about.

plain*clothes: I've never asked anyone to do all the work. I just want to be more informed. Not only do I work on a variety of non-prof work, I taught myself how to design 2 websites last summer with no help at all--which greatest compliment of all were basically ripped off and reused at a pro sport site, I also volunteer and do PC admin support at my child's school (which I learned how to do because my tech guys couldn't install my hardware in the 80s--real live tech support was great back them). I never charge a dime for anything I do and I've spent months with less than 1 hour of sleep to reach a deadline.

That said, I'm a geek that likes to know every detail about what I'm working on and am perfectionist who wants the best job I can. I like to share my areas of expertise when I can and I also love to learn from those who are experts in their field.

hhp: thanks for the great list. I already had several of them bookmarked and I added the rest.

Technology moves so fast it's like going to college. You might take classes all over the campus and be exposed to a variety of things, but you don't major in everything. In my working as both tech support and graphic support for several large companies and schools, I've just found that the people who get thrust into these situations aren't truly equipped to do their jobs, nor do they know where to go. When I was first learning there weren't as many resources to get both good and bad info from. I'd like to have a place where I can refer myself and those I support to find out about type and how to really use it correctly, creatively, and ethically from people that know the best way.

http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/16689.html?1064504736 is a thread of a college student trying to find out the impact of type. Type is no longer restricted to print, it is a myriad of multifaceted tentacles that reach everywhere. And many of us out here are one man bands. I design, program, write, self-train, purchase, install and support everything I do from my kitchen table. If you design in a workplace, you can go to the cubicle next to you and white board with the designer next to you.

The value and the talent that is available at this site in incredible. The opportunity to learn from some of the best in the field is exciting and humbling. I'd love to be able to read every book on typography, web design, css, html programming, javascripting, network solutions, etc. to do my job properly, but if you check some of my postings, I really need that hour of sleep. I admit I understand type and have several books not just on typography but the history of type as well, but it's not MY area of expertise. In addition, I and others in my same situation just don't have the time to do our work and read every new book on the market and decide which book has good info and which one doesn't. Sometimes 20 min online can educate me as much as spend 2 days reading a huge book. Resources are the key to doing great design, and after 20 years of doing graphics and pc admin, these resources provide inspiration and an opportunity to learn no ways to improve my work!

This is Gill Sans










Of course there are at least Linotype and Adobe
Gill Sans too...
__________________________________________________
Monotype Type Drawing Office 1928. Gill studied
under the renowned calligrapher, Edward Johnston,
the designer of the London Underground sans serif
typeface. This influenced Gill who later
experimented with sans serif designs, and in due
course produced a set of capital letters. These
became Monotype series 231, produced in 1923, and
the forerunner of the extensive Gill Sans range
now available. A twentieth century sans serif
that has a simplicity of form which does not
reject traditional forms and proportions, and
gives the face a humanist feel. The lighter
weights are highly readable in text and suitable
for magazine and book work, whereas the heavier
weights are best used for display in advertising,
packaging, and labels.

Come on, does nobody has nothing to say??

I prefer to use Monotypes Gill for the copy and the Bitstream

It

Fredrik, thanks for taking the time and making the effort. This will deserve a little closer attention than I can pay at this time. Off the top I see the differences in the lc b and d between the first example from H

Thanks Fredrik! It sure is fantastic to see these examples like this. Am I seeing that right: there's actually a point in the lower right of the counter in 9 in the 353 example? Those mumerals are kind of whacky with what appears to be a really narrow 3, an extremely wide 4, and an apparent decrease in bowl size from 5 to 6.

Would anybody happen to have an example of output from a rip-off of Gill Sans or Humanist to compare to these lovely examples?

Everything narrower than what has been posted will do.



Almost the same