Hasn't Manuscript already been digitized? I seem remember some discussion about it a few months ago…

I'm not sure that it would be appropriate to revive a face from a living designer. I also know of a few cases of children of designers who got peeved when their parents' typefaces suddenly appeared out of the blue in digital format (for sale by third parties, sometimes without even proper attribution).

Best bet would be to contact the designer or the family directly, in my opinion. Who knows? Maybe Hermann Zapf is just waiting for the right offer for his Civilite…

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www.typeoff.de

Hasn't Manuscript already been digitized?
It has... but the only "decent" (IMO) digitization of it is Franko Luin's version and it seems to be unavailable most likely for copyright reasons. I don't much like Alex White's version, a bit too gloopy for my taste.

Maybe Hermann Zapf is just waiting for the right offer for his Civilite…
Doesn't Linotype have a good working relationship with Zapf? I'd love to see them offer develop this one.

here's a link to the old Menhart Manuscript thread:
http://typophile.com/node/8491

I recently exchanged a few kidneys for the monumental F. H. Ernst Schneidler book [scrolly poly] featuring simply stunning specimens of his entire body of work. I'm particularly fond of his Juniperus-Antiqua and of course his blackletters. It also includes every character designed for Legende, many of which never made it in. Schneidler is a master on the same level as Koch, Tiemann and Lange, and his fonts deserve wider recognition outside the German-speaking world.

I think that Schneidler deserves a better reputation inside the German-speaking world…

Are you going to start working on a Schneidler face?

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www.typeoff.de

Well, how about all those typefaces that need REdigitizing? Eg a lot of the Monotypes from the 80's... with those shoddy and limited kerning pairs and mostly inept contours.

BTW I plan on resurrecting a project I started in 1995 (I know, time flies...), a revival of a Van der Vossen woodcut font. Any issues re copyrights with that one. It's from the 20's so © should have lapsed by now. Or am I missing something here?

Thanks for mentioning that Schneidler book, John. I had not heard about it before. There goes another kidney :)

I'd love to have a good digital version of the Imprimerie Nationale's Cypriot typeface, and will probably make one for myself if I can find the time. I think it is one of the most beautiful of all the IN 'exotic' types: some of the forms have the freshness of Matisse papercuts.

Hi Dan,

My first real digitization will be some letters by one of the local calligraphers in Atlanta. It will be a display italic with a range of contextual froof. As far as Schneidler goes, I don't know which company ended up with his stuff--either Linotype or Neufville, I suppose. I want to get better at digitizing before I go at something as institutional as a Schneidler face.

(Institutional in the positive sense, if you can imagine one.)

Oh, I can think of plenty of positive institutions. Good luck with the calligraphic face!

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www.typeoff.de

To me, very few old fonts are worth [re]digitizing; the effort is generally better spent on new stuff. But -as always- there are exceptions: Deberny #16 (which I'm actually co-working on, quite slowly though), Pascal (which Neufville has been working on, forever...) and Octavian.

John H: You probably mean the 12 point Cypriot (p237 in IN's 1990 specimen book), the one that looks like cave paintings? Because the 10 point (same page) seems like quite a boring monoline; and it seems to have been cut at a later date (and probably by a different hand), since the IN's 1905 specimen book (which I got my hands on recently - it's quite amazing) only shows the 12 (and shows it much better - p102) and the caption says only one size was available. Anyway, if you'd like a 600dpi scan (or 2000dpi photos) from the 1905 just let me know - although I guess chances are good you already own the book!

John B: I'm pretty sure the Schneidler stuff is with Linotype.

hhp

>Well, how about all those typefaces that need REdigitizing?

There is always scope to do a digital version of any metal type, with much leeway for interpretation. First, there is the question of which size(s) one uses for one's master.
Then there is the question of "process", or ink gain: for the model, does one take a clean piece of type (or even the designer's drawings), or a printed image with a lot of gain -- or something in between? Also to be considered: the amount of gain to be expected in printing from the digital type (if indeed print is going to be the final medium).

And of course, every designer has their own personality to put into a typeface, in both their conceptual attitude, and in their feeling for form, expressed in the particular shape of curves and texture of detail. A physical signature.

So it's not really a question of faces that NEED re-digitizing, but of what fresh interpretation a type designer today can bring to bear on something from the past.

Having said that, I still side with Hrant in preferring new original work, even though I am quite happy to oblige clients/customers by reworking older designs. C'est la vie.

hrant and nick agree? is that like the second time?

Helvetica Flair.

I agree. I need more pieces of flair.

I'd like to see Bookman Swashes (the old version) digitized. It'd be a blast to use. Though I imagine if it came on the market, we'd see it everywhere for a year, and then we'd all be sick of it, and it'd go back on the shelf.

I am looking for specimens of Truchet's work (about 1693) for Louis xiv's Imprimerie Royale typeface? In fact any of Truchet's works, even if not typographical, are of interest to me.

Hello Hrant, you can probably help.

I’d like to see Bookman Swashes (the old version) digitized.
I still love seeing it on spice jars. If i could find decent specimens i'd do this one in a heartbeat. I'm sure there's another version besides ITC digitized tho, isn't there?

Gerald, I'm no expert, but I'll see what I have.

In the meantime you can check out this:
http://www.irisa.fr/faqtypo/truchet/truchet.html

hhp

I'm not finding anything on Truchet; just a mention in Maurice Audin's "Histoire de l'Imprimerie" of 1972 (p189) where he says Truchet was on the RdR committee. It's curious that Jacques André* seems to give him central credit** for the RdR on that website. Hopefully JFP will chime in and provide useful info.

* Probably the best person to ask about this. Unless you can pull off a seance with Audin...

** And really too much credit here and there.

hhp

Hrant,

I am surprised you remember me. Thank you for your quick response. I am finishing up a book I have been writing that requires some final research. Difficult to do in my present circumstances. Is it best I start a new thread? I don't know how to do that?

Or should I write you directly?

Gerald

Gerald, you must surely know by now that you're not at all forgettable!

It's not hard to start a new thread (and it's probably a good idea), and you're of course free to contact me*, but I don't know much more about this. I can however put you in touch with Jacques André. BTW, it seems to me that delving into the design of the RdR might reveal the most about Truchet, and James Mosley's recent book (I forget the title - Dan knows) is probably the best single place to start that journey.

* As is anybody else: hrant_thatsymbol_inverselogic_dot_com

hhp

Hrant,

Thank you again. There is an illustration for my book on that link which is missing. I don't mean the "missing link". It is the G on http://www.irisa.fr/faqtypo/truchet/truchet2E.html Hopefully I can get a crisp copy for the book.

I have different questions for you later. I will try to start a new thread.

Giampa

Reproductions of the Simoneau engraved plates can be found here and there. The best one I personally have is in the IN's specimen book of 1905*, which shows the "L" and "M". I can scan/photograph those up for you, if you like. The "G" might be somewhere in my library too, but somebody would have to tell me where to look for it.

* Which BTW has [at least] three references to Truchet, but all cursory. Arthur Christian places the credit for the RdR firmly on the shoulders of Jaugeon.

hhp

Thanks for the offer, Hrant. I do have the 1990 IN specimen, and also one of the earlier 'types etrangers' specimens printed letterpress.

Hrant,

I will certainly take you up on your offer. I would need a high res scan suitable for print. I am not sure how large a file that would be, or how to get it to me. (e-mail) I would be happiest to have both the "L" and the "M".

"* Which BTW has [at least] three references to Truchet, but all cursory. Arthur Christian places the credit for the RdR firmly on the shoulders of Jaugeon."

Thank you for this also.

Would you, John or anyone else happen to know who (institute) has a showing of Luce's rococo flowers (c.1733).

I will try to fiqure out how to start a new thread. Sorry for this.

Hello John, I expect to be in your neck of the woods.

Gerald Giampa

John,

Good to hear from you.

Sorry I missed your post, I am not used to the new format. You have the IN specimen, maybe this would be the best way to expedite the matter.

Gerald Giampa

Hello Gerald. To create a new thread, go into the Forum you wish to use and scroll to the bottom. Look for "Post a new topic".

Tiffany,

I received your earlier note, I am not sure if you got my reply? Maybe multiples? I will try to figure out how that works.

I am glad I am not entirely forgotten.

Gerald Giampa

So I think I managed to make the scan clean and tight, but it's still quite large in filesize...
The image is about 9x4.5 inches at 600, so probably more than big enough for your book.

(3.4Mb) http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Tuleu/RdR-L&M.tif

And here's a 15%-size GIF for quick viewing:
(116Kb) http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Tuleu/RdR-L&M_s.gif

If you actually end up using this, please remember to give credit to the book ("Débuts de l'Imprimerie en France - L'Imprimerie Nationale - L'Hotel de Rohan", Arthur Christian, L'Imprimerie Nationale, 1905), and me.

> Luce’s rococo flowers

I don't see any actual samples in my two IN books. On page 84 of the 1990 book however there's a short paragraph about that stuff:

En 1771, Luce publie chez J. Barbou son 'Essai d'une nouvelle typographie ornée de vignettes, fleurons, trophées, filets, cadres et cartels, inventés, dessinés et exécutés par L. Luce, graveur du Roi, pour on Imprimerie royale'. Cette typographie est composée de six mille poinçons gravés de 1740 à 1770, "fruits de quelques loisirs que les travaux de l'Imprimerie royale laissèrent a son auteur".

But are you sure they'd be "rococo"?

--

So what's the book about?

hhp

Hrant,

• But are you sure they’d be “rococo”?

According to the late John Dreyfus they are, supported by the old Berthold Typefoundry.

• (“Débuts de l’Imprimerie en France - L’Imprimerie Nationale - L’Hotel de Rohan”, Arthur Christian, L’Imprimerie Nationale, 1905), and me.

Already entered. The scan is beautiful.

• So what’s the book about?

The topic: printer's fleurons. The first text in the book consists of several discoveries and observations by the late John Dreyfus. Naturally Dreyfus wrote this section himself.

The rest of the text is my own which will be lavishly illustrated by my own work with fleurons.

And yes, there is a publisher waiting.

Gerald Giampa

Oh God, can one keep nothing private anymore? I suppose I must be the first to have digitized and used Luce's ornaments (which, personally, I would loosely describe as faux gothic) and have used them for a good ten years, but I have sedulously kept them away from the eyes of known typophiles.

With regard to the digization of old metal typefaces, the problem is laziness on the part of designers. What makes a metal typeface great is not the design per se, but the implementation at the various sizes. Until you are willing to restrict a metal design to one size you cannot get it to rival the printers' work of yore. But this applies to new designs too, doesn't it? Hence Sumner Stone's Cycles in 7, 9, 11 points.

Bill,

I would like to see these? You could show me in private if you wish.

Gerald Giampa

I'm adding Letraset's Magnificat to this list.

It's very unlikely to happen but I would like to see a digital version of Rosart's Financière.

http://www.jazz.futurezone.com/default.html#rosart

...and released by The Enschede Font Foundry.

That is Gorgeous!!

Wow, that is truely a work of art.

i now give you... the letter P.

What about the letter -T-?

Paul likes swashes.

I would also like helvetica flair .

Somewhere in there, there is a letter "P" but it may not be quite the right font for the NYC subway type Terry is working on :-)

ChrisL

I *NEED* Helvetica Flair! My Helvetica fix just won't ever be complete without it.

huh! i just found that URW is releasing a version of Manuscript called Manuskript Antiqua. Too bad it doesn't have the cyrillic component...

So Hrant, whatever happened with Giampa's offer?

I'm not reading an offer anywhere - please explain.

hhp

Oh I totally misread the thread. In my brief scanning I thought I had seen something about Giampa digitizing something.

Well, I'm sure he is, something or other. Personally I've never managed to get anything tangible out of him, not even his list of books when he once offered to sell some of them.

hhp

We all need to live closer to Giampa (so we can go bang on his door and make him give us stuff).

More like his boat :-)

ChrisL

There is a font called Civilite - but I guess it's not the same one Zapf designed?

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/civilite-urw/

OK from what I'm seeing, this URW font Civilite seems 'inspired' by Zapf's original and shares its flavor but is not an exact replica. It is a lovely font, I bought it recently.

nope, not the same, here's a bit of a crappy sample:

Not the same but similar. How is it that they get away with using the name?

civilite is less the name of a typeface, per se, as it is the name of a genre of typefaces based on a particular script hand. the urw civilite is just one version, H&FJ have their own version as well based on the Granjean model.

Civilité is just the name of the style - and not trademarkable.

BTW, remember this freaky "Goth Civilité"?
http://typophile.com/node/9245

hhp

i do. what ever happened to our friend raph?