9/11

hawk's picture

not type topic.....

since tomorrow is 9/11. maybe each of us will post.... let's say - a mark, symbol, type+drawing, anything, something - about 9/11.

so. how do you remember 9/11?



David Hamuel

.00's picture

...

John Hudson's picture

People all over the world get killed in huge numbers with awful frequency. It is terrible and it is frightening and most of the time no one gives it much thought. The scale of the New York attack was impressive for non-state sanctioned killing, but there are people who spend every day for years living with terrorism and war in their towns and cities. So perhaps this is how we should remember '9/11': by calling to mind the people who have lived through so many atrocities that they don't keep track of the dates any more.

John Hudson's picture

Let me add one thought to that, since James' post crossed with mine: when I say 'we' I'm talking primarily about people who were not there.

hrant's picture

> The scale of the New York attack was impressive for non-state sanctioned killing

Especially when you consider how cheap it was to carry out (~$200,000).
The US has to spend millions of dollars to kill 3000 people, and billions to occupy the land they used to live on.

> people who were not there

I was there. Not in Manhattan on that one day, but in Beirut for years. And I still agree with you!

James's tragic recollections reminded me so much of home: the phosphor smell from the hi-tech Israeli bombs that hit my dad's laboratory/office, the smell of my dog's urine stain that I was trying to clean from one of our Persian carpets as one of my uncles suddenly showed up to tell me that his brother had been assassinated, the furious wail of a Druze mobile Katyousha battery using our building as cover to random-bomb the Phalangist Christian neighborhoods, the uneasy silence during my 2-4 AM shift guarding my high school with a Chinese imitation of a "Klashin", the symbolic but awesome shelling of a deserted Syrian outpost in the Bekaa Valley by the meter-wide cannons of the New Jersey warship five miles off the coast, and the hopeless but almost festive firing of anti-aircraft guns at it, with the vermillion flare rounds bouncing off the surface of the Mediterranean repeatedly, like some ethereal ballet - and so many other utterly unforgettable things. I think people with childhoods like that can be forgiven for being a little crazy.

hhp

porky's picture

The best way to commemorate this date would be to support a cause that can stop continuing senseless death.

Rather than concentrate on a single undoubtedly horrific, tragic act of violence, we could concentrate on the fact that the same number of children die every single day worldwide of starvation (according to the UN) as died in the twin towers. Just try and picture that in your head.

This website recently put an interesting perspective on global poverty: http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Go do something positive to help today. I am going to try and do just that.

steve_p's picture

>>the same number of children die every single day worldwide of starvation (according to the UN) as died in the twin towers

And that's just children
24,000 people starve to death every day - that's one person every 3 seconds.

By all means remember 11/09/2001, but don't forget 11/09/1973.
(When the actions of American agencies in facilitating and funding the military coup in Chile led to many times the number of deaths than the WTC event, as well as many years of torture and human rights abuse)

steve_p's picture

As for making a positive contribution, David's link is exactly the kind of thing that's needed.

Also have a look at http://www.thehungersite.com, and don't forget the coloured links near the top of their homepage.

vincent_connare's picture

I remember it being in the afternoon listening to I believe BBC Radio 2.

I remember feelling a bit foreign.

I remember it being the second of two sad events. The first being coming back to Seattle NOT voting for george bush and seeing FOX and CNN show the country falling apart.

I remember emailing and calling my friend Mimi who lived near the trade center. She was in a cab and had a dentish appointment the bottom of one of the towers, but she was 15 minutes late... good ol' Mimi... we missed our flight to Berlin once since she was late but this one was much better.

I remember finding out a childhood hero Garnet 'Ace' Bailey a member of the 1972 Stanley Cup champs Boston Bruins died in the second plane to hit the towers. This is a photo from the 1972 Boston Record American I have.
acebailey

I remember it as being the start of laying low Yankee boy when you're in Brixton.

I also remember it's the day Paul McCartney died.

I also remember my girlfriend saying she remembers being in her flat near the MI6 building in London when the Real IRA shot a shoulder launched missel into the MI6 building from the car park outside her flat.. or at least that's were they found the anti-tank missel launcher.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/935058.stm

vincent_connare's picture

11/9/1966 Yanks had it backwards it's Sept 11 not November 9th.... number nine is nothing but the month. Faul took his place.

trae's picture

I'm so glad John and Hrant and Steve (and my partner as well) said what I've, as an American, been afraid to. One generally doesn't, not here, not in my semi-rural part of Pennsylvania.

What I remember most about 9/11, is actually after 9/11. Americans became kinder, more patient and were jolted out of our standard-issue self-absorption. I had to travel shortly after the attacks and saw this attitude shift in full effect at the airports I passed through. Previously, few things seemed to bring out the "me first," rude, cold, rushed, bad behavior like flying. But this time... strangers made eye contact, spoke to each other and were helpful. There was a warmth and solidarity generally missing in our society.

I am sad to say it hasn't seemed to have lasted which makes this period all the more memorable.

hrant's picture

> kinder

?

hhp

meredithalix's picture

Kinder to each other, perhaps. Not to all those dangerous "foreigners" and "evildoers" and humans just trying to live their lives in the countries we're now decimating.

hrant's picture

Nah, I'm pretty lucky. The people on the real receiving end don't talk about type on-line. They talk about how they're going to extract a family member's corpse from the rubble.

hhp

andrew_fall's picture

> kinder, more patient and were jolted out of our standard-issue self-absorption

Sorry, I must have missed this. I'm sure they can think of other adjectives in Afghanistan, Iran and Palestine (where kind and patient American backing is letting the Israelis get away with murder every day).

trae's picture

Absolutely, Yves. That wasn't particularly well-thought out. Simplistic. Something.

9/11 brought some ugly stuff to the surface. A sort of "the bigots and the ignorant can come out in the open now," like it's been given some sort of state-sanctioned legitimacy.

I'm not particularly proud or happy by a long shot ( fairly embarassed, actually). But I thought I was seeing the beginning of some sort of improvement.

Dan Weaver's picture

I was listening to WNYC our classical non-profit station when it suddenly went off air, I turned on News 1 New York and saw the first tower was hit. Thats where WNYC's tranmitters were, as I was watching I saw the 2nd jet live go into the 2nd tower. It was desturbing enough I had to get out on my bike in Central Park. I was riding for about 1/2 hour when steams of people were walking across the park, I didn't associate it with the WTC, but what happened is the city shut itself down and since the trains weren't running they had to walk home. The by product of the tragedy is Mahanttan had been in a bad recession and was made worse. We are still in recession two years later.

John Hudson's picture

In the immediate aftermath of the attacks, for a couple of weeks, I think there was an increase in kindness and concern for others that was pretty widespread in the USA. It's the natural first response to tragedy, to try to help, to try to support, and only later do people start thinking about blame and revenge. I remember Tom Milo at the ATypI conference in Copenhagen, relating the epic story of his roundabout journey from California back to Europe in the aftermath of the attack: he described the consideration shown to everyone stranded at the various airports, the volunteerism, and the lack of selfishness, and remarked that he'd felt privileged to have been there and witnessed it. This from someone else who was in Lebanon during the civil war, albeit as a UN intelligence officer rather than as a civilian with the front line in his living room.

It was only as the dust settled, literally, and the people like Ashcroft and Rumsfeld began to exploit the situation that the ugly side came out.

hrant's picture

> I thought I was seeing the beginning of some sort of improvement.

Or a polarization ("us against them") that bodes ill.

--

> he described the consideration

As long as you weren't Middle-Easter-looking. On 9/12 I saw a Sikh in a turban walking to Sav-On with his young daughter, being heckled as a terrorist. And don't let me start the stories of harassment (from both the general populace as well as the FBI) concerning an Armenian friend of mine with the last name of Arabian...

If you weren't living in Canada you might have realized that the desire for revenge kicked in about an hour or so after the planes crashed.

> It was only as the dust settled ....

Some people think the US planning started way before that, and 9-11 might have in fact been a Pearl Harbor deal. On the other hand, the issuance of residency visas to the [alleged] hijackers after the fact certainly does attest to an innate plain idiocy within the US governental systems.

hhp

matha_standun's picture

...Palestine (where kind and patient American backing is letting the Israelis get away with murder every day).

And what happened to the dead Israelis, Andrew? Died of old age, did they? This good guys v bad guys stuff is ridiculous. People of all nationalities are getting away with murder everywhere everyday. Why should one set of murders be more important or more tragic than another?

While we're on the subject, here's something to think about :

3,523 people killed between July 1969 and 31 December 2001 in Northern Ireland with guns and explosives shipped in from all sorts of crazy places and paid for with enormous amounts of money donated by Americans who watch too much television.

We could use September 11 to remind ourselves not to interfere in other people's countries.

Matha.

hrant's picture

> not to interfere in other people's countries.

And especially not create new countries using the land of the powerless in order to destabilize the region for centuries, so that you can better usurp their resources (material and human). You certainly don't want a rival culture to have a Golden Age - that would advertise the shallowness of your own.

hhp

William Berkson's picture

My son was less than half a mile away, near the Brooklyn Bridge, when the burning towers collapsed. In that moment he lost his youth, though he is still in his 20's.

He followed a path like many of his computer-studies classmates of working in the dot-com boom, and then going to work for financial companies after the bust. Three of his graduating class were murdered in the 9-11 attack.

Art was used to express grief and anger. My son told me that a poster immediately appeared many places in lower Manhattan - where my son and daughter (she watched the collapse from her rooftop at a safe distance) live.

It was never photographed or reported in the press, to my knowledge. It was a variation on the famous 'I want you' recuitment poster with 'Uncle Sam' pointing at the viewer. (I know it is based in turn on a British poster.) The variation was that instead of pointing at the viewer, Uncle Sam had an upturned middle finger, and the caption was 'We're coming to get you motherf***er.'

>This good guys v bad guys stuff is ridiculous.

I agree that being simplistic is a very serious problem in political thinking, especially about foreigners. But there are bad guys. The Taliban qualify. They deserved what they got.

America is often the good guy and sometimes the bad guy. It is complicated. But the knee-jerk anti-Americanism I read on these boards I think is seriously misguided, and the product of simplistic and dangerous 'black and white' thinking. It is a cheap way to feel superior, not a result of real understanding.

The main problem with it is not that America doesn't do stupid and bad things. It is that most governments in the world are so much worse that they can't even be mentioned in the same breath as far as badness. My wife has worked all over the world in a UN organization, and is of the very well informed opinion that the reason most of the poverty and misery in the world is due to bad governments, many of which have been just gangsters, mafias. The US government is not, and never has been this bad, and that is why it has peace and prosperity - uneven though these are - within its borders.

Right now the US is at its peak of power in the world. If the Taliban had the same power, you would know what bad is.

Also this stuff about the US being so narrow minded and intolerant is crap. I am in an inter-racial marriage, and know people here from all over the world, including many multi-national and multi-racial couples. And they vote with their feet to come here because it is so tolerant. Again, this is by comparison. There are plenty of American bigots. It is just that most other societies are much more intolerant than the US.

I don't particularly want to argue about all this on these boards. I want to learn about type from all of the wonderful typofiles here. But on this day, as the question was raised, I thought it might be appropriate to introduce a little balance and get people to think twice about their knee jerk anti-Americanism.

hrant's picture

> They deserved what they got.

Ah, but what do some of your guys deserve?

Most people of the world have stopped believing that the US is good for them, and with good reason. Of course there are worse governments, but they don't have the firepower to make the world miserable the way the US is doing. Your attitude is typical, and very dangerous.

hhp

hrant's picture

And there's something else: the people of virtually every "bad" government (like Italy) know that their government is bad - this puts them closer to betterment. Americans overwhelmingly think their government is good - this makes things much worse.

hhp

fontosaurus's picture

Yeah, and even worse, our government is totally inflexible. Our crappy foreign policy is what got us attacked in the first place, but rather than change our ways or even just re-examining them, we turn around and lash out and those responsible and those that live near them.

sometimes, i wish i was canadian. if they could finally start putting caffeine in mt. dew up there, i'd emigrate.

plainclothes's picture

"Americans overwhelmingly think their government is
good"

I really don't see proof of this. there are very few
people _anywhere_ that think government is good. I
support our government as one of the best of an
unforgiveably terrible lot of greedy bastards.

"Our crappy foreign policy is what got us attacked in
the first place"

you're not really that easily fooled by the media, are
you? I suppose, then, that foreign policy is the culprit
behind the rampant terrorism elsewhere in the world.

how about greed?

I'm trying to stay out of this discussion... really.

Dan Weaver's picture

Hey, I live in Manhattan, about 4 miles from the WTC site, I still haven't been down there and its two years ago now and I hope I never will. Its a burial site, to me, not a place to rebuild. As I was walking in my neighborhood I noticed that you can go a block and see people who represent every country in the world who live here. Americans in Manhattan are an international community, so ladies and gentlemen please don't paint your opinions with such big brushes. An example: A bunch of cyclist are riding 3 and 4 abreast, and blocking traffic, therefore all cyclists ride 3 and 4 abreast and block traffic.

trae's picture

I don't necessarily think an overwhelming majority of us believe that our government is good. Maybe if you listen to our lap monkey media.

I do know that this government does not represent me and it does not represent many of the people I know (and I don't think that's how it's supposed to work). Not nation-building, not self-interest, not imperialism, not oil-sucking Humvees and certainly not cowboy bravado. I've never been able to sit though a Bush speech as I find his smirking and leaning so repellent that I can't even hear his voice.

This what the rest of the world sees and this is the kind of crap it's been subjected to for how many years? I hate it but I can understand why so many of you are angry.

meredithalix's picture

Part of the problem, I think, is that Americans rely on American media for their news -- and American media rarely report the brutality the U.S. inflicts on other countries. Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador... The School of the Americas (excuse me, I mean WHISC)... we recoil at the barbaric rule of other countries and the single-minded torture they carry out, but it's by no means metaphorical to say that the U.S. uses those same means to achieve their political ends.

I feel sick every time I hear someone say about Sept. 11, "The world changed that day." Many were killed, many still grieve, and many had a sense of safety ripped away, but the world did not change.

By the way, I've listened to National Public Radio all day today and yesterday, and haven't heard one mention of Anna Lindh. That is sad.

steve_p's picture

>>most governments in the world are so much worse [than America] that they can't even be mentioned in the same breath as far as badness

>>most of the poverty and misery in the world is due to bad governments, many of which have been just gangsters, mafias

All of this is true, but it loses its impact when you add the fact that many of those 'bad' governments are funded, armed and condoned by America.




>>America is often the good guy and sometimes the bad guy

Well,America has funded armed and condoned the bad guys in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Columbia, Chile, Indonesia, Malaysia, Russia, Argentina, Bolivia...(I could go on)

(I should add that I am not unaware of Britain's past and present record in these matters)

matha_standun's picture

All of this is true, but it loses its impact when you add the fact that many of those 'bad' governments are funded, armed and condoned by America.

A good point but perhaps even worse is the fact that certain groups are condoned and funded one day, made public enemy number one the next. The U.S. and U.K are not the only culprits (France has a pretty nasty record of training torturers in South America) but they do do it quite spectacularly

m.

William Berkson's picture

Ok, against my better judgment...

The last few posts are on the mark. The US is very culpable for supporting rotten governments during the cold war.

But the weird thing to me is that now we do some good things and we are suddenly unspeakable.

For example, after Europe cravenly lets Bosnia go to hell, we finally intervene and stop the slaughter of Muslims. So we of course are a bunch of vicious anti-Muslim bastards, and Europe is pure and holy.

Then this Arab Fascist Saddam is responsible for the death of more Muslims probably than anybody in history - hundreds of thousands at any rate. We, ill advisedly or not, invade to rid the country of Saddam.

The Iraqi army, who evidentally hates Saddam's guts, throws down their weapons and goes home. His group of henchmen then conduct a reargard action of sabotage to prevent decent civil life from coming back to Iraq. So having given Iraqis a chance for a better life, at the cost of American lives, and now willing to pour billions into its reconstruction, we and the Brits are just disgusting oppressors of Muslims.

So we deserve to be lectured and castigated and condemned for throwing out Milosovic and Saddam. It's really horrible what we did. But not a word of condemnation for these regimes. No. Lets spend all our emotions on hating that repulsively smug rich frat boy, GWB.

Why not go further and condemn the US for throwing out Hitler and Musolini? Attack that disgusting Roosevelt and Churchill who presumed to interene against those whom they arrogantly called tryants and threats to humanity.

hrant's picture

Complete brainwashed la-la-land.

hhp

antiuser's picture

Here's a very interesting and scary story about the rebuilding of Iraq, cut-and-pasted from an Iraqi's blog.




Listen to this little anecdote. One of my cousins works in a prominent engineering company in Baghdad- we

William Berkson's picture

>Complete brainwashed la-la-land.

My feelings exactly - but of course with the shoe on the other person's foot.

I guess what saddens me is that we can talk with a similar a view of reality when it comes to type, but on politics, the views of reality are so far apart. This is of course the way the world is, which is a big part of the problem. I don't know what can be done about it. :-(

William Berkson's picture

>scary story about the rebuilding of Iraq

This is what worries me most right now. GW is totally capable of completely messing up the reconstruction. It doesn't have to be. I'm just hoping Bremmer is better. But stories like yours scare the hell out of me. I hope instead of thumbing their nose at GW the other developed countries will get in there and serve as a check against abuse and stupidity...

steve_p's picture

William,

You seem to think that no-one here recognises the wrong doing of anyone but America.
This isn't the case.

The reason why America is coming in for so much stick is not that we think that its the root of all evil, but in order to redress the balance and give the discussion a sense of perspective.

Now I'm sure that you feel that this whole thread is anti-American, and you're just balancing things out.
I'm afraid that isn't the case. This thread exists not because two or three thousand people were killed 2 years ago today, but because those people were mainly Americans.
When two or three thousand people of other nationalities die the anniversary goes largely un-noticed.

Note, for example, that between your first post (1:00 pm) and your second (4:33 pm) over 4000 people starved to death.
Is George Dubya going to start a war on hunger, or poverty, or disease?
What do you think?
(Here's a clue: There's no oil involved, nor any other immediate economic benefit for the USA)

William Berkson's picture

Steve, because my wife has worked for many years on problems of poverty in less developed countries, I discuss them practically every night, and am very well aware of the challenge of helping these countries.

The view of my wife, who comes from one of these countries, is that the primary responsibility for the misery of these countries is the leadership in them, and that those in the West who think that the US or Europe controls everything are patronizing and wrong. The indulgence and support of rotten regimes by both America and Europe have, though, exaserbated the problems.

I am very distressed about our policies that hurt poor countries. And I am in despair that the left and the right are pretty clueless about what is actually going on.

For example, GW recently paid off rich American farmers with huge subsidies - against his supposed free market principles and in a craven attempt to buy votes in farm states.

This move will wreck the ability of legions of farmers in poor countries to earn a livelihood from farming, and drive them in desparation to the city slums - and incidentally many poor central americans across our borders. The only thing that can be said not to condemn this policy as distinctively devilish is that the agricultural policies of the European Union are even worse - More protectionist, more subsidies undercuting the ability of those in poor countries to making a living by competing fairly.

Since trade arguably has a much bigger impact than aid on the poor countries are you denouncing Tony Blair and Jacque Chirac and other European leaders for causing the starvation of millions? Or is your ire just reserved for GW?

European anti-americanism is a cheap substitute for real understanding and sound policy.

-Just blame the US and get indignant, when in fact the problems and the solutions are very complex, and involve the US and Europe and Japan changing their policies. And most of all the leadership in the poor countries needs to change or actually starting to care about their people. Whenever they do, the countries actually experience economic growth, and fewer people go hungry.

Are you denouncing those in poor countries who are actually most responsible for the plight of their people? Or only the US?

I see simplistic, conspiratorial thinking going on all the time. People scream about symbols while the substance of policy is neglected.

hrant's picture

> leadership in the poor countries needs to change

No, the attitude of the people with power (ie Americans) has to change, because the US can change any regime it wants with a snap of the fingers - but of course only governments whose toppling is useful to Big Business suffer that fate. The US created Saddaam, but now that they need the borders of Iraq to serve as their self-validating terrorist threat (now that Afghanistan is no longer useful in that capacity) as well as a source of oil alternative to Saudi Arabia, they got rid of him (quite possibly by simply telling him it was time to go). There are so many realities you conveniently ignore, it's impossible to think you're doing anything but rehashing what you were fed as a child.

And if Americans really wanted to, a fraction of the people who currently starve to death would suffer that fate. But they don't, because their system has taught them to care first and foremost about their selves. Your society is decrepit. A simple rummage through the trashcan of the average American establishes this instantly.

With power comes responsability - this is the one thing that the US has to take to heart, otherwise it will continue to be the overgrown teenager with the biggest club. The entire foundation of your political thought is based on the contrivance that your government is sound. It is not. Your leaders are murderous thieves, and worst of all the population supports them - not because they're as bad, they don't realize what's going on - but because they've been brainwashed since birth to think the US is good overall. It is not. It has become the single greatest cause of misery to the greatest number of people on Earth. Why? To feed its own obese shell of a society.

--

You're severely outnumbered here for one reason only: this is an international forum, with people who have not suffered your brainwashing. The saddest thing is that it will take decades and many more large-scale attacks on the US for you to finally snap out of it. You are being sent to slaughter to make rich people richer.

hhp

capthaddock's picture

It's depressing - and eye-opening - when one realizes that the $160,000,000,000 spent (so far) dropping cluster bombs, napalm, and depleted uranium on Iraqis could have been used to:

1. Pay all the debt of Africa.
2. Feed all the starving children in the world.
3. Provide the educational needs of every child on the planet.

9/11 could have persuaded those in power to do more good for the world. Instead, it showed us what power and opportunity (even in "democratic" countries) do to people. At least it was educational.

Paul

kakaze's picture

Aww, but why help the world, Paul, when we can make it cower in fear?

steve_p's picture

>>are you denouncing Tony Blair and Jacque Chirac and other European leaders for causing the starvation of millions? Or is your ire just reserved for GW?

No, I'm not reserving my ire just for GW.
Yes I am denouncing European leaders for their economic (& political) policies.

More culpable than the politicians, though, are those with real (i.e. economic) power.

>>Just blame the US and get indignant, when in fact the problems and the solutions are very complex...

No-one (I hope) is just blaming the US and getting indignant.
The solutions are indeed very complex, but even if we knew the answers, it would still be very difficult to implement them. This difficult task is made immesurably more difficult by the attitude of many Americans to the WTC events.
While significant numbers of Americans continue to think that their dead and maimed are more important than the dead and maimed of other countries we are never going progress.
The posts that you perceive as anti-American (some of them at least),are not anti-American per se but a protest against the importance placed on 3 thousand American deaths given the way that American foreign policy places such a low price on the lives and livelihoods of non-Americans.

steve_p's picture

>>Are you denouncing those in poor countries who are actually most responsible for the plight of their people? Or only the US?

Of course the local puppets should be denounced, but often they wouldn't be in a position to be responsible for such suffering without US (and European) backing.

Listen, if someone points out that the German establishment in the 1920's was partly to blame for the rise of Hitler, that doesn't mean that they think Hitler was not guilty of anything.
It does, however, move everyone a step closer to preventing such a thing happening again.

jfp's picture

Without trying to make any political comment, I notice that the main difference between 11 september numbers and all died everyday on this planet, is in one couple of minutes, they all died together in same place, same time. That is a difference who make it a significative human "event" to me. Whatsoever they are, we all are humans out there and we react as human with an heart.

And yes, there is many others "cases" on this earth, but generally on more long period who make them a bit more difficult to remember in same way, on one day.

Anyway, we should remember to all of them indeed.

William Berkson's picture

>Anyway, we should remember to all of them indeed.

Thank you JFP. I was beginning to think that Europeans are so blinded by Anti-Americanism that normal human sympathy is suspended.

>This thread exists not because two or three thousand people were killed 2 years ago today, but because those people were mainly Americans.

Uh, this site is hosted in America and many Americans post on the site, and non-Americans who live here, like the one who started this thread. And many who post here were personally affected, including me. If your reasoning were correct, the proper way to respond to the anniversary of your Uncle's death is to berate your Aunt for grieving and not thinking about the starving masses in poor countries. Americans are not worth sympathizing with, because they are the devil incarnate.

>the US can change any regime it wants with a snap of the fingers

Sure, that's why we threw out Castro in 1990, just after the fall of the Soviet Union. Fantasy, and invective built on fantasy.

>$160,000,000,000 spent (so far) dropping cluster bombs, napalm, and depleted uranium on Iraqis could have been used to:

1. Pay all the debt of Africa.
2. Feed all the starving children in the world.
3. Provide the educational needs of every child on the planet.

According to costofthewar.com last night 73 billion had been spent on the war, not 160, and we are about to commit 75 billion just trying to lift one countrty, Iraq, out of poverty - and it has oil, as many have pointed out. Spent Uranium are bullets, not bombs, and I believe napalm was not used at all. The idea that the US or Europe can wipe out poverty and ignorance around the world with a one shot spending is nonsense.

For example over half of the budget of Bengla Desh, for years is paid by foreign aid, and they are still mired in horrible poverty - and not coincidentally have one of the most corrupt governments. The fact that you don't know what you are talking about doesn't matter though. So long as it is anti-American most will nod and be happy.






steve_p's picture

That's now over 19,000 people who have starved to death since your first post.

Is your human sympathy suspended, or is this tragedy going to put the WTC event into perspective.

By all means remember, but until we see some signs of American policy makers (and large sectors of the American public)
LEARNING from the tragedy, many of us will continue to have grave concerns for the future.

timd's picture

Is it any wonder that countries are turning against America and Europe.
1. Yes, Bangladesh is subsidised and yes, the government has corruption problems, but at Cancun, while Koreans stab themselves to death, America and Europe are trying to destroy the alliance of G21. G21 are seeking to stop richer nations dumping their subsidised surplus goods on markets where local farmers cannot compete.
The world's poorer countries lose a total of $24bn a year because of the subsidies paid to farmers by rich nations, according to new research by economists in Washington.
In addition to the $24bn lost by poor countries, a further $40bn in agricultural exports could be generated by developing countries if protectionist policies were abandoned by developed nations.
Current subsidies per cow:
EU: $803
USA: $1,057
JAPAN: $2,555
2. International trade rules are agreed between countries at meetings of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Every country that is a member of the WTO is entitled to be represented and is governed by international trade rules. The US has 250 permanent representatives at the WTO while Bangladesh has only one. Many countries cannot afford to have any representatives.
3. Iraq is not poverty-stricken, it has huge oil resources and a well educated population, if it is allowed to trade fairly it will lift itself out of poverty - the $75bn is more in the line of replacing infrastructure destroyed by warfare (much of that amount going to American corporations).
4. Depleted Uranium is used to increase the effectiveness of armour piercing weapons - artillery shells, aircraft ordinance, missiles.

hrant's picture

Since today is no longer the anniversary of 9/11, I suggest we stop.

hhp

jfp's picture

>That's now over 19,000 people who have starved to death since your first post.

Well, humans born and died all the time. And it happen in any situations, good and bad.

I will not blame the hot temperature and French politicians in holidays during August because we've got 15000 people (more than usual numbers) died in France during August 2003. And not make an incredible case of that. Its the life, as I say before, its up to each of us to find good way to make our future better (some will giving their time to non-gov organisations, etc.) Its not by giving lessons to others about what they need to do or not to do.

Action is better than words?

jfp's picture

you right Hrant! I stop too.

hawk's picture

My 1,000 words (from Time magazine, September 24, 2001)pic

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