1867 french catalogue font

geoffkaplan's picture

i bet this is an easy one...
thanks!

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Ryuk's picture

Can't name any of them unfortunately (minimum 2 different ones for me).
Some I like as alternatives for 'TABLEAUX': Gauthier FY, Royal Romain WDF, Danmark URW++, Jupiter, Beaufort

donshottype's picture

1867 -- I can usually find the original typefaces to match 19th century books, but not necessarily a digital version.
For example the phrase
CATALOGUE
TABLEAUX
M. ÉDOUARD MANET
seems a match with:


sold in America a half century later as French Old Style by Franklin Foundry.
Minor variations due to different font point sizes for your sample & my print specimen
Don

Ryuk's picture

Impressive, Don... What a knowledge! Thanks for sharing.

donshottype's picture

You're welcome Ryuk.
The closest match I can find in digital fonts is Louize, a new revival by Matthieu Cortat of the ‘Augustaux’ designed by Louis Perrin between 1846 and 1855.
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/nonpareille/louize/
If G and some other letters were edited it would be possible to produce a passable facsimile of the French book of 1867. The Romanas and Devinnes have the same source but they are transformed versions that do not fit very well.
Don

donshottype's picture

Louise Italic has an A.alt that is pretty similar to the initial letter of the word AVENUE.
Don

JanekZ's picture

Maybe will help (very old thread, better in WebArchive)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070612155721/http://www.typophile.com/node/...

donshottype's picture

Hi Jan, great find. First class discussion. Also at http://typophile.com/node/7596
I wonder what happened to the Perrin font being developed by J. Knox in December 2004 as Marquet.
I Googled "fonts Marquet" and found links to a heavy script font.
I did some further research. French Old Style is the English name for a style of font designed by Théophile Beaudoire in 1858. The upper case is derived from Louis Perrin's Lyon Capitals. The European name, sometimes also used in English, is Elzevir. Not a lot of difference with Marquet.
Don

JanekZ's picture

Marquet font, second part http://typophile.com/node/54015
Unluckily the font is not published.

donshottype's picture

Thanks for the link Jan.
Not published -- indeed unfortunate.
Procrastination is a waste of time.
don

donshottype's picture

I looked more closely at the 1867 specimen and have a couple of observations.
The text -- perhaps at 20 point or thereabouts -- is extremely thin. The sample of French Old Style I posted -- 18 point body type -- has generally matchs the 1867 titling text, but is thicker. The Perrin font being developed by J. Knox is not as close to the letterforms -- note for example the leg on the R -- and is also thicker. His Marquet Titling is moderately thinner but still too heavy for a match. French Old Style No. 2 as sold by ATF in 1900 -- and probably similar to versions sold by foundries in Europe and America for many years before then -- seems bang on at 20 point for the weight and letter width, but like Perrin/Marquette has the wrong leg on R


We are a long ways from having a perfect digital match to the spindly letters in the book title.
Unfortunately, demand for fonts that accurately recreate 19th century books is probably too low to justify making most of these fonts.
Don

Ryuk's picture

Don's last sample reminds me (again) of De Vinne. The closest here might be Romana.

George Thomas's picture

Geoff, you wrote: "i bet this is an easy one...". Honestly, you have no idea how easy it was...n't. :-)

What I found is that the font being used is shown in several specimens from 1867 through 1882, all French. I could not find it in anything before 1867, but then it's very likely I don't have all the specimens available.

Unfortunately, although it is classified and shown with all the Elzeviriennes, it is never given a name, only a number. It is a titling face, thus has no lowercase. I halfway expected to find it in the 1907 BB&S book, but it is not there.

There is no digital equivalent to be found, at least by me. Someone ought to do a public service and digitize it for us; it's a nice face although it could use a little updating.

donshottype's picture

Hi George, good informative post. Do you have the number & foundry.
As for public service in digitizing it, I have found from experience that to do an adequate job on a text face like this is far more demanding than a display font. Unfortunately, life is all too short. The only way I would consider it is a commission from a publisher.
BTW there are a few excellent digitizations of 19th century text fonts. For example Ronaldson from Rebecca Alaccari at Canada Type, and Scotch Roman by Nick Shinn.
Don

George Thomas's picture

Don, you wrote:

As for public service in digitizing it, I have found from experience that to do an adequate job on a text face like this is far more demanding than a display font.

I agree with your statement entirely, but this isn't a text face; it is a titling face so wouldn't take nearly as much planning for someone to do.

OK, enough of that. The numbers I mentioned previously are merely serial, as in a list of fonts of general styles in different books. Nothing specific which would identify a type such as in the early years of American foundries.

Here is the info you requested, all French specimens except for the final one:
Badoureau, 1875, printer; categorized with other Elzéviriennes, shows as 16 through 72 point, no numbering.

Mangin, 1867, printer; uncategorized, serially numbered as #46, shows only 18 point, says "8 alphabets" which I take to mean point sizes.

Berthier, 1882, printer/foundry; categorized as Initiales Elzéviriennes, used on title pages, also shows eight sizes, numbered 750 through 757.

Monnoyer, 1889, printer; categorized as Initiales Elzéviriennes, shows two series: 6 through 10 point, and 7 through 56 point. The sizes 7 through 10 in the latter series are a distinct cut from the larger sizes but show the /R characteristic. The /G and the long tail on the /Q don't show up until 12 point. No numbering, just point sizes.

Bécus, undated, printer; has an Elzévir titling series but it is not the same face as the one we seek.

Turlot, undated, c.1885, foundry; categorized as Initiales Elzéviriennes, used in one line on title page, as the initial cap on all pages, also shows point sizes 9 through 48 only, no numbering. This specimen in the smaller sizes has an /R more like the larger sizes. It does not show the /G in the smaller sizes.

And finally...
ATF, 1898, foundry; a showing of Newspaper Headings #118, 6L, which appears to be the same face although not enough characters are shown to do more than speculate. This face does not appear in the ATF 1897. Given that this was a newspaper face, it is highly unlikely that a specimen of the full font exists today except hidden away in some collection. The only other possibility is if an American foundry prior to ATF picked up the design and renamed it as something we haven't discovered yet.

geoffkaplan's picture

amazing responses! thanks typophiles. here are 2 additional pages for reference/your enjoyment. best, geoff

donshottype's picture

Excellent research George. Goes straight into my "dig further" file.
Minor point, this design was popular for body text as well as display.
It could be done as only a titling face, but that would not do it justice.
The display sizes are extremely spindly, the text ones not as much but still very light compared to text faces developed in the last 120 years, starting perhaps with Century Old Style. In America text faces like French Old Style were purged from the printer's catalogs around 1900 as lacking assertiveness. If memory serves me correctly, they persisted longer in European foundries.
Don

donshottype's picture

Thanks Geoff for the additional pages. The Italic text is particularly useful in confirming the identity of the font.
Don

nepenthe's picture

I regret that the typeface was never completed to a standard that I felt comfortable releasing for sale. Over the years, I worked on it piecemeal and many versions accumulated. It got so I couldn't tell my versions apart. Also, the glyphs proliferated as I added IPA symbols, various accents, etc. that were in some versions but not others... Perhaps I might look at my work again and see if I can't figure out how to finish it an release it on MyFonts as I had intended.

When working on the typeface, I had much assistance from Mr. Hrant Papazian. Is he still around these parts? I consider it a great disservice to him that I never finished my work, after all the work he and others contributed. Hrant scanned some wonderful samples from Ovink which I referred to extensively, and which he may still have on his website.

Let me know if I can be of any assistance regarding this typeface.

J.P. Knox

donshottype's picture

Thanks J.P. for the update on Marquet. I checked the pdfs in http://typophile.com/node/54015 and find that Marquet really catches a light esthetic. It's your decision as to whether or not to finalize the project. About all I can suggest is that a quest for perfection in design means that there will always be new aspects that deserve refinement. I believe that at some point it's best to set these issues aside, declare victory and present a project as a best effort. My observation of many of the fonts that I like is that they could benefit from re-editing and revision, but this does not affect their primary role as a design that users find satisfying and are prepare to to ignore deficiencies that the designer may perceive.
Don

nepenthe's picture

I will try to assess what would be involved in preparing the fonts for release. If I think I can pull it off, I will definitely let people here know.
J.P.

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