Fresh eyes

markatos's picture

Hello folks.

Working on some letters for an upcoming logo. Wanted to get some fresh eyes to look at it before I start taking it to the next level.

Peter.mark zarnow letters

taran80's picture

"A","K","0" are my favourite.. and "M" - i love it! "R" looks too heavy for me.. "W" - a lil' disbalanced, imho.. can i bought form you this "M":-)?

markatos's picture

Thanks Dmitry. Now that I haven't looked at this for 8 hours I see what you mean about the W. Is it the top left serif that makes it look unbalanced? I'd to maintain that serif, but it does need some work.

Hmmmm. Not sure what to do.

markatos's picture


That is exactly what I want to achieve. I tried that with the R, there is a notch (albeit subtle) on the diagonal. I guess that needs to fleshed out some more?

Before I had the crossbar on the A not meet, as well as the left side of the W separate from the right. But I didn't want to go the 'stencil' route.

I will do some more 'notching' and repost, but does the W seem awkward in terms of balance to you (or anyone else)? I want the basic letterforms to be solid before I start embellishing them.

aeolist's picture

the spacing is bad, file mou
the r and k are just too close
and the space on both sides of the m are too wide
what's the use of the "inktrap" (i hope i got that term used in the right way) on the Z? It's not used as an element on any other letter
ante geia

kris's picture

I like. The little nick out of the Z is quite lovely. Nice
touch. What/who is this for?

matteson's picture

I like Z a lot too, Peter. Maybe if you make the notch (or "crotch") in the R a bit bigger, it'll lighten up the joint in the middle. I think that's one of the reasons it looks so much darker. I also think the reason the W seems unbalanced is the difference between the two apertures at the top - and the counter space. The left counter is much smaller and has a smaller aperture. Maybe it'd help to widen it some.

markatos's picture

thanks folks.

aeolist, that isn't the logo, just the letters for now.

nathan, thanks for the thoughts.

I will repost with your suggestions in mind in the next day.


tsprowl's picture

looks like you've forgot to round out the corner bezier on the connector there to the top right serif on M.

Its a yummy Z, I'd make the notch in the R the same as Z for consistency

yep, I'll say it too - the R is a bit thick in comparison to the rest. Looks like you might need a hairline planned out like you do in the M, A, K and W.

in fact wait a second - you might want to make all those hairlines appear the same thickness come to think of it.

The A looks uncentered. think the apex should shift a bit more to the right.

yep that's it.

markatos's picture

Tanya, thanks. Great feedback. Will post changes tomorrow.

rs_donsata's picture

You have to make the notch bigger, most of the people won't see it (we are designers) wich i guess is very important considering it

markatos's picture

Here we are folks....I really appreciate the comments so far, they have been quite helpful.

What you all think?

markatos's picture

here are the logo concepts as well

seg's picture

that's a VERY nice logo you've got there. i would probably thicken the midline of the A. i also think niether of the layouts are right for the logo.. an elegant sans would be nice.

kris's picture

Agreed. Very beautiful and strong. But the tapered crossbar on the A does little for me.

markatos's picture

Elegant sans...hmmmm

I think of Gill Sans and perhaps Base9 (sort of).

No knotch on the cross bar on these.

Too bad Gil Sans doesn't have a medium.

markatos's picture

not so into those, but I do like where you are coming from.

I'll do some more treatments.

markatos's picture

I'm thinking Minion. Seems to blend the best.

Not into Apex so much but I have to include something to this effect.

kakaze's picture

Generally it's a bad idea to mix two similar faces. Either use a sans or a script for the "photographs" but don't use a Serif face for it. Unless you want to expand your little alphabet to include the letters in "photographs" too.

matteson's picture

I like the new changes too Peter. And I think these two comments from Chris and Tiffany will do a lot to point you in the right direction:

>Generally it's a bad idea to mix two similar faces
>I think you need something geometric.

I.e., use a sans serif, but a sans like Gill is still too close to classical letterforms (too much like MARK ZARNOW). Hence Tiffany's suggestion of a geometric. Well, I think - I certainly don't want to misrepresent anyone.

One thing about the letters in MARK ZARNOW: the "R" is still too heavy to my eyes. Is it possible to widen it slightly - or make the tail thinner (more like "K") - in order to create more counterspace?

markatos's picture

You were so right about the spacing. Thank you. I think I have tightened it up now. I still am not sure about the NOW though. Is the W too close to the O?

I knew that. What the hell was I thinking ;)

And Nathan,
Great suggestion on the R. Though I was a little concerned that the counterform of the A was too small so I enlarged it a bit.

re: geometris sans

I was using Apex for this very reason, but I guess it is too techy/contemporary for this context. I ended up liking Avenir the best. Kabel is up there too...

Thanks again for this last round of critique everybody. The logo is looking much better.

hrant's picture

Loosen the "RK" and the "RN".
Tighten the "AR"s a hair.

Maybe do something more with the "Z".

Try Bank Gothic for the sans. Or maybe Blair.
Or you could go totally the other way and use a funky sans from Storm or something - depends on what image the guy wants to project, so to speak.


eomine's picture

>Try Bank Gothic for the sans.

No way, Apex is much better. :-)
I think M, R, and W are too heavy, and "NOW" could be just a little tighter.

Dan Weaver's picture

The type is totally forgetable, it expresses nothing about either the client or his work. Try being more emotional, what is the mood of his work? Is it fun, is it corporate, is it personal? I should look at a logo and immediately have where they are coming from. He isn't IBM

hrant's picture

Not every font is Madonna. I think the type expresses plenty, but in subtle ways, as opposed to screaming
"Look at me, look at meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee - I'm more important than the text I'm set in!!!"

That's not some bland text face - the R, Z and W especially are full of character.


William Berkson's picture

I think the type is very strong also. I don't know about the left diagonal on the M, which would normally be heavier in relation to the right stem. If you haven't tried it yet, You might try thickening it and see if you like it better.

markatos's picture

Hrant. Good call on the spacing, though I wasn't so sure on the AR tightening, but did it anyway so we can have a look.

I love Apex, I think I may go with it. Bank Gothic could work too, I like it's horizontal appeal, but not into those terminals on the G and S.

Daniel, I disagree with you for the following reason: The client wanted something classic and sheik, yet humble and unpretentious (maybe a little pretentious). He's a fashion photographer, and this logotype is based off of elements of the Prada logo (see the A) and an old letterpress small caps font I found.

I think I am acheiving exactly what I set out to do.

Show me an example of the requirements I had that has more "emotion" and isn't as "forgetable" as mine, and maybe I'll reconsider.

markatos's picture

william...should at least be as thick as the diagonal of the A huh?

will look into....

hrant's picture

I think you went a bit too far in the spacing tweaks - maybe pull them back by half. Almost there though!


markatos's picture

Ok...pulled back the spacing. widened the crossbar on the M and N (good suggestion william, I think it helped balanced out the thickness across all the letters).

still not sure on the NOW. I think NO is fine, just not sure about OW. Is MA a bit loose?

William Berkson's picture

You have greater evenness in spacing now, but I liked the wider spacing you started with. The heavy letters, widely spaced, have a striking look. Generally, I think widely spaced caps give a kind of monumental feel. I don't know about the photographer, but if he is aiming at that kind of look - like Karsh used to do in portraits - it might be appropriate.

rs_donsata's picture

I agree in part with daniel, if this is a logo you have to make it memorable too. The notch could grow bigger, but there can be many other options

gulliver's picture

Make the "Z" just a bit wider. Most people make
"Z"s too narrow. "Z" should usually be a bit
wider than "N", especially in more classic fonts.

By contrast, I would try making the "A"s very
slightly narrower -- but not by too much.
You have some nice diagonals going.

This is looking very nice!


lorenk's picture

i agree. wider Z. also, tighten MA and OW.

Miss Tiffany's picture

My favorite chars are the Z and the W because they are the most original. Could you take the "irregularity" that exists in the W and the notch that is the Z and translate that into the whole word?

Miss Tiffany's picture

Peter, I prefer the sans as well. However, I think you need something geometric. -- The spacing in Mark Zarnow is off. The two words need less word spacing, and then you need to work with the separate letter spaces more as well. I do like the changes you've made to the forms themselves.


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