Please help unidentified Serif Typeface.

takashikato78's picture

Hello,
Can someone please ID this serif.
Thanks in advance,
Takashi

Ryuk's picture

Uppercases and lowercases look like Plantin to me. That's a different story for the digits though... May be some (bespoke?) version of it I'm not aware of...
Curiosity now, how could you have such a complete specimen without knowing the font? Or where did you get it?

takashikato78's picture

Yes - it does sort of look like Plantin.
I can see some differences in the normal letters and definitely the numbers.

Are there other versions of this around?

I saw the font on a website and downloaded it.
But there is no name information or designer

hrant's picture

You downloaded a font that has no name, and you'd like to know what the original is called?

hhp

takashikato78's picture

Yes - that is correct.
The font file has been renamed with the name of the website instead of keeping the original name.
So I wanted to find out what the original name is.
Thanks for the help.

HVB's picture

If you will name the website it could help.

hrant's picture

Takashi, do you suspect the website where you got the font did something unethical?

hhp

takashikato78's picture

The website I do not think is importnat in this case - since the sample is on this forum post.
No - I do not think they did anything unethical.
I simply want to find out which font this is.
Thank you for the help.

hrant's picture

I can't speak for anybody else here, but I'm personally feeling too ambivalent about this to help.

hhp

takashikato78's picture

Can you please explain your emotions?
I simply want to find out the typeface.
Just like every other post that has existed in the type ID forum.

akira1975's picture

I suspect it’s a knockoff of Plantin, too. I’ve never seen this. If you have to know the name, could you tell us where you found it? It might help us find out what it is. But I don’t think it might be good for us to tell you what it is, because it might be a knockoff.
Plantinのパクリフォントじゃないかと疑っています。初めて見ますね。もしどうしてもその名前が知りたいのなら、どのwebサイトで見つけたか教えていただけますか? それが何かの手掛かりになるかもしれません。ただ、何という名前かをお教えするのはよくないことじゃないかと思っています。それはknockoffかもしれないので。

hrant's picture

Dick, are you paying attention?

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

There you go again, hpp, maligning Dick when he hasn't even posted on this thread.

And if you're "personally feeling too ambivalent about this to help," then don't help. But stop trumpeting your ambivalence on a type ID board.

Maybe we should have Touchy-feely, Warm-fuzzy, Rant-of-the Hour, I-just-need-to-vent, Whiny-snively, and Ambivalence forums. Oh, wait, isn't that what General Discussions is for?

"The font file has been renamed with the name of the website instead of keeping the original name. So I wanted to find out what the original name is." I doubt that. That would mean you could only download one font from the site, since you can't have more than one file with the same name in the same directory. Most font programs, including free font viewers and Windows own tools, should provide this information. If Plantin was renamed Planter's Peanuts, then that's a different story.

I don’t think it might be good for us to tell you what it is, because it might be a knockoff. What if he wants to buy the original?

Jan's picture

I can't speak for anybody else here, but I'm personally feeling too ambivalent about this to help.

Lol.

Renaissance Man's picture

The meeting on apathy was called off for lack of interest.

hrant's picture

Are you two upset that there's now a place for ethics on the ID forum?

Steve, do you think a person has to be dead sure that something is unethical just to be cautious? Do you think it's a good idea to help somebody when you're concerned that your help will be misused?

Jan, do you think ignoring difficult questions makes somebody honorable? And do you think it shows strength of character to ask for an apology, get it, but decline to accept it?
http://typophile.com/node/100820

hhp

takashikato78's picture

hhp you are not very helpful and have made this post about you.
I can see now this is not the first time you have done this.

Moderators - can you please remove this post? It has been hijacked!
It is turning into arguments because hhp is rude and selfish.

hrant's picture

I think this post is about all of us, as well as being about Typophile, in spite of whatever I -or anybody else- might want. This is a large, heterogeneous community; is it reasonable to expect no friction?

I understand you're frustrated that you're not getting what you want out of this thread, but I don't see where I was "rude" or "selfish". Know that I'm not accusing you of doing anything wrong - I just personally don't feel comfortable enough with the details (and I'm not alone) to provide help. If it's any consolation I actually don't know the answer to your question (although to me that's actually secondary).

Feel free to ignore me, but you don't have to attack me.

hhp

takashikato78's picture

Yes - I do expect no friction. I had a simple question that was asked but instead you wanted to write about yourself. If you want to do that you should write a book.

You cannot say do not attack me when all I have done was ask the post to be removed since you have changed the direction and have made it about yourself instead of the original purpose (this is rude and selfish). This was also not attacking - only listing the reason for it to be removed.

Since you wanted friction - I guess you now have it.

hrant's picture

I don't want friction - I just think it's impossible to avoid entirely. I only wrote about myself in self-defense. Maybe your question wasn't so simple? BTW don't you think a thread can have more than one direction? You might still get an answer to your question. Why be so anxious to make the thread disappear? I wish people wouldn't get so emotional when they can't control something.

I feel your insults are ungracious and unwarranted. But they won't stop me from possibly helping you in the future.

hhp

eliason's picture

Moderators - can you please remove this post? It has been hijacked!

You must be new here. :-/

takashikato78's picture

Yes - I think a post can have more than one direction.
But it was mentioned earlier and I agree that this can be put in the General Discussion area.
As I understand the type ID board is for identifying an unidentified typeface. Which was beginning to happen before you decided to change the topic to yourself and created the friction.

I want to have the thread deleted because it has turned into an argument and it now focused on that instead of finding out what the font is called. It is not a good record to have and I think it is better for it to be removed so it is all behind us.

takashikato78's picture

eliason - Please do not ridicule because I am new.
It is not helpful in the situation.

This is an example of how the post has been hijacked in the wrong direction and now not being used for the original purpose and why it should be removed.

hrant's picture

I don't think Craig was attacking you.

Do you think the ID section should act like it's not part of Typophile? Do you think a person should identify a typeface even if they feel it might be unethical? Do you think covering up friction reduces the chances of more friction in the future, or increases it? Do you really believe that somebody who can help you is holding back because of this friction? If so, could it because of the second question above?

I'm only asking these questions because I think trying to answer them might help, in ways more important than IDing a single font. It might help for every font ID, not just this one. Which is not to say that any question can only have one correct answer. I think the act of communicating clearly and candidly helps us as a whole, if sadly not always individually.

Nobody has to join me in this sort of "philosophizing", but throwing insults won't help - it increases the friction in an unproductive direction. I have not attacked you; I simply tried to explain myself, and everybody is free to ignore that.

hhp

takashikato78's picture

I never said that craig was attacking me.
I think you need to slow down.
Which is what I am going to do now because this post is over.

Renaissance Man's picture

Philosophizing OK. Friction, not so much. We have the power to make the distinction. If we don't do it in our posting, others will do it for us in responding.

hrant's picture

Isn't "ridicule" a form of attack? Anyway, that's not too important.

Steve: Who benefits by ignoring questions?

hhp

Chris Dean's picture

I would also like to know the name of the site. Quoting the Typophile forum posting guidelines: “…please do not post links to sites which offer unauthorized downloads of commercial fonts. If you do wish to report a site with this activity, please contact a moderator.”

@takashikato78: Could you please email me the url of the site in question? Do not post it. If it is posted, I may delete it (pending investigation).

typographer@gmail.com

Thanks in advance.

PabloImpallari's picture

By the way.... that's a pretty ugly digitalization of Plantin.
Allow me to suggest a better one
https://www.klim.co.nz/retail-fonts/tiempos-text/
https://www.klim.co.nz/retail-fonts/tiempos-headline/

DPape's picture

Another successful "Type Id" hijack.

hrant's picture

Dick, what do you think of Akira's concern with identifying knock-offs?

hhp

DPape's picture

Clearly I respect Akira1975's abilities to identify fonts. He thinks it might be a knockoff. He says, "But I don’t think it might be good for us to tell you what it is, because it might be a knockoff."

Which means if you have an answer, Font Iders, tell us. If you suspect the answer is a knockoff, don't tell us your answer. Very easy alternative. Akira1975 explained it fully.

This Type ID forum has become a joke. It is one thing to discipline the responders about replying incorrectly, but it is entirely another matter to have an inquisition of an OP on where they got the sample. Our purpose is to find the name in the sample, not the source of the sample.

Hrant can you identify the font?

This thread has become "beat up the OP"... crazy direction.

Chris Dean's picture

@DPape: Without guessing, I can’t know what you mean by OP. If I were to guess, I would say Original Poster. I can’t speak for others, but let me clarify my statement. By asking takashikato78 for his source, I am not “beating up” on him, I am inquiring about the source of a potentially plagiarized typeface. In this instance, takashikato78 has done nothing wrong. If there is an instance plagiarism, it is neither the poster nor the identifier who are guilty, but the plagiarist. Given that it was requested, I merely cautioned against posting the URL of the site in question — as is clearly stated in our guidelines — and requested the source.

@takashikato78: I am sorry if you interpreted my post as aggressive. You are free to respond as you see fit.

hrant's picture

Clearly I respect Akira1975's abilities to identify fonts. He thinks it might be a knockoff. He says, "But I don’t think it might be good for us to tell you what it is, because it might be a knockoff."

Which means if you have an answer, Font Iders, tell us. If you suspect the answer is a knockoff, don't tell us your answer. Very easy alternative. Akira1975 explained it fully.

This Type ID forum has become a joke. It is one thing to discipline the responders about replying incorrectly, but it is entirely another matter to have an inquisition of an OP on where they got the sample. Our purpose is to find the name in the sample, not the source of the sample.

Hrant can you identify the font?

This thread has become "beat up the OP"... crazy direction.

Do you respect only Akira's abilities to identify fonts, or also his ethics?

Which means .... If you suspect the answer is a knockoff, don't tell us your answer.

Do you agree with this?

discipline the responders about replying incorrectly

Where did this happen?

have an inquisition of an OP on where they got the sample

Is it that bad if somebody wants to do some research to avoid providing the wrong kind of help?

Our purpose is to find the name in the sample

Why do you want to force others to have the same purpose as you?

And I don't see how refusing to provide an answer one thinks might be tainted amounts to "beating up the OP" at all. Also, I think the recent shift in the type ID section isn't a "joke" at all, but a sign that people on Typophile care about type. Is that really "crazy"?

Are you saying ethical considerations shouldn't "cramp our style" so to speak, when IDing a font?

hhp

DPape's picture

@Chris Dean. Since you are a new participant in these wars! (hah) I will confirm OP was meant as Original Poster.

Your quote from Typophile guidelines "please do not post links to site which offer unauthorized downloads of commercial fonts" does not apply to takashikato78 but to type iders I believe.

Don't you think the demand "EMAIL ME THE URL OF THE SITE IN QUESTION" (my emphasis) is a form of "beating up"? There can be no plagiarizing charge before the Typeface is identified. The OP provided a sample of the font, not the font itself. No one has identified any font to my knowledge, much less shown any plagiarization.

People regularly post samples from random or illegal sources. People regularly post bespoke samples. Typophile Id experts frequently request source. If the OP decides not to give, Typophile can stop helping.

Since Typophile does not pursue any of these samples in the past, why the sudden interest in investigating takashikato78?

@Hrant. Too many questions (and too many quotes). Pick a few good ones in your next post. This should not be about Hrant and definitely is not about Dick.

Again, why don't your posting counts show? Everyone else is there...

hrant's picture

I don't know why you can only handle one question at a time, but OK:

Do you believe that a person providing an ID should be concerned with the ethics of how the font was made?

This is about each and every one of us, because we make this place.

hhp

Chris Dean's picture

@DPape: You have misinterpreted me twice, and now seem to be putting words in my mouth. I “demanded” nothing of takashikato78, accused no one of anything, said please, and apologized for any potential miscommunication. This will be the third and final time I repeat myself.

The phrase “please do not post links to site which offer unauthorized downloads of commercial fonts” from the Typophile forum posting guidelines applies to everyone.

I came across this thread and noticed takashikato78 say “The website I do not think is importnat in this case - since the sample is on this forum post.”

In this instance, there was an identifiable source, so I inquired by asking takashikato78 to email me directly, thus avoiding posting a URL which does not abide by our guidelines.

I used the term “investigate” in regards to the site in question. Not takashikato78. I am not investigating takashikato78 for anything.

As far as accusations of plagiarism (of which there are none) of course you would need to know the URL of a suspect site in order to determine if it hosting plagiarized typefaces.

And just because someone hasn’t done something in the past, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t strive to do so in the future. Typophile didn’t exist 14 years ago.

Gräfenberg's picture

Well said Chris. That sort of deliberate misrepresentation really grinds my gears.

I think a lot of IDers who are into this partly for their own personal gratification — to be clear: I am not maligning anyone, that is partly why I do it — need to take a good long look at whether that is their primary motivation, and therefore whether it supersedes other important considerations which should be at the forefront of our minds as lovers of type design.

hrant's picture

Exactly, Ernst. Even though there is very little "cross-pollination" between the ID section and the rest of Typophile (you can tell because when an ID is posted outside the ID section, nobody replies) the ID section is still part of fostering Typophile's image, hence relevance and usefulness. Some type designers -the reason Typophile exists- get disgusted and leave when they see their craft disrespected.

This is not an attack (as it contains no opinion) but a statement of fact:
On a number of occasions Dick has stated that a correct ID is his primary motivation, and nothing should inhibit that; he has also confronted people who don't adhere to this philosophy. I only single him out because nobody else here has done those things.

I will have to leave it up to moderators and fellow Typophiles to decide whether such behavior is actionable. Also however, I would like to request some guidance in terms of what somebody like me should do when witnessing IDing activity that seems to violate Typophile guidelines, in letter or spirit.

hhp

DPape's picture

@Chris Dean. I think you underestimate the power of your comments or posts. You did indicate "please" in your request to takashikato78, but since you represent Typophile it carries greater weight than just courtesy in my mind.

@PabloImpallari. Don't confuse us with answers or facts!

@Hrant. "On a number of occasions Dick has stated that a correct ID is his primary motivation, and nothing should inhibit that" True. I said that accurate identification was a primary driver, but secondary was finding a legitimate source and that without the latter the former doesn't get posted.

Some people leave Typophile when their interests mature!

There has not been a discussion of what criteria prove a plagiarism. Over the recent weeks there has been discussions of Dafont, Autumn Leaves, Dave Rakowski, Nick Curtis, and now this Plantin look-alike that I can remember. From what I've seen these have been all smoke and no fire. Once a thread is stopped the problem goes away for another day.

Along the way however, we have insinuated crimes without attempting to get proof, or even being interested in getting proof.

hrant's picture

@Hrant. "On a number of occasions Dick has stated that a correct ID is his primary motivation, and nothing should inhibit that" True.

Thank you for confirming.

without the latter the former doesn't get posted.

That contradicts your confirmation above that "nothing should inhibit [a font ID]".

Can you point out examples where you either:
- Didn't post an answer because you thought the font was plagiarized?
- Retracted a font suggestion when people pointed out it was tainted?

I don't remember ever seeing something like that happen. And when people have suggested factoring in ethics, you've balked.

There has not been a discussion of what criteria prove a plagiarism.

That's not necessary for this discussion. This is about what [not] to do based on one's own beliefs. If you believe reusing outlines is not unethical, just say so.

Are you really interested whether a font is legitimate? I'm not talking about outright pirated fonts, I'm talking about things like -what some people call- outline theft.

Would believing that a font is probably plagiarized stop you from IDing it, or cause you to retract an ID?

hhp

PabloImpallari's picture


Now I can't get that movie out of my head! :) jajajaja

Chris Dean's picture

Anyone can identify whatever like.

No one can’t post links to pirate sites.

If anyone sees or suspects a pirate site, please email it to me.

Please be mindful of “insinuating crimes” as beyond a certain point this becomes bullying.

typographer@gmail.com

hrant's picture

So is it OK to condone the illegal re-using of commercial outlines?

When somebody says "nothing should impede the IDing of a font", does that mean references to plagiarism will be tolerated here?

And is it not OK to simply state an opinion that condoning the re-use of commercial outlines is unethical and should be avoided? What about cases where it's legal but a person still feels it's unethical?

Is it OK to imply -and/or even explicitly state- that type designers should not have IP rights and/or such rights should not be protected on Typophile?

hhp

Chris Dean's picture

@Thread: I have spent hours fruitlessly trying to be explicit and thorough with my explanations. I can no longer afford to spend any more time on this issue so I will try to make it as simple as possible:

A poster asking for identification of a typeface that you suspect to be illegitimate is not against the rules.
OK: “What is this font?”

Someone else responding with an identification of a typeface that you suspect to be illegitimate is not against the rules.
OK: “It looks like Widget.”

Posting a link to a site that offers illegitimate typefaces is against the rules.
NOT OK: “It looks like “Widget.” (where Wikipedia is a hypothetical site hosting illegitimate typefaces)

If someone posts a link to a they consider to be legitimate, but you suspect to be illegitimate, do not harass them. Bring it to my attention via email.

Renaissance Man's picture

Murky: Posting a link to a site that offers illegitimate typefaces is against the rules.

Question: What if a site offers a "legitimate" font that an OP is after but also offers pirated and/or "outline theft" fonts?

Chris Dean's picture

Question: What if a site offers a "legitimate" font that an OP is after but also offers pirated and/or "outline theft" fonts?

Answer: Please email me the URL of the thread and site in question. Provide direct quotes when possible to help save time.

hrant's picture

Chris, thank you for trying to explain.

1) Why condone the naming of an illegitimate font when linking to it isn't OK?

2) If you can't afford to spend the time explaining official policy, how will you manage to make the time to investigate cases of plagiarism? I don't mean to pester, I'm just concerned about private reporting of plagiarism going ignored because you're -understandably- busy. Why not simply allow somebody to voice an opinion that they think the font might be plagiarized? People can then use that opinion in any way they please.

It seems there are more restrictions on people who want a place for ethics on Typophile versus people who think IDing is the only purpose of Typophile.

--

Dick, two questions only:

1) Do you think it's ethical to re-use commercial outlines without permission from the original designer?

2) Will you avoid recommending fonts you believe are probably unethical and/or will you retract a recommendation if you become suspicious that's the case?

Would you excuse people from developing a negative perception of you if you avoid answering those questions?

hhp

DPape's picture

(This is too long a response.)

Hrant:
This is the primary issue: "Why not simply allow somebody to voice an opinion that they think the font might be plagiarized? People can then use that opinion in any way they please."

It sounds so nice put that way, but these "opinions" or accusations should also be accompanied by some sort of proof, such as "it's too similar to ..." and here's where they're alike.

Show us how they are alike, don't just talk about it. Talk is easy. Research/documentation is hard. An accusation alone is irresponsible.
-----
My Two questions:

1. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
2. Why are your posting counts not shown on this forum?

Finally, Two answers out of Three:

1. It is not ethical to re-use commercial outlines without permission.
2. I don't/won't recommend fonts that I feel are probably unethical.
3. I will consider a font unethical if Hrant suspects it to be unethical because similarity of design is prima facie suspicious.

In closing, under all circumstances, I will excuse people from developing a negative perception of me.

Chris Dean's picture

1. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Watch the language. That’s below the belt. From our Typophile forum posting guidelines:

Be Courteous:
Last, but not least, please conduct yourself with restraint and treat others who use these discussion boards with respect. Be prepared for some lively banter and keep a thick skin. However, please refrain from any personal attacks of other Typophile members on these boards. Also, do not abuse contact methods made available to interact with other users to make such attacks. Once again, if you notice any inappropriate behavior in this regard, please contact a moderator.

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