Truth Normal: history and available version?

sansdavid's picture

Hi all,

There's this font, Truth Normal (and Truth Normal Slanted):

Does anyone know the history of this font, and if there is a commercially available version? I haven't been able to track down the original designer/foundry, and it seems as though this particular typeface is no longer available. (Trying to reprint—with corrections—a legacy document for a client.)

Thanks for your help!
D.

sansdavid's picture

After some very bizarre Google results, I think I've answered most of my question. The original foundry was Thirstype, which was then incorporated into Village; the designer is Barry Deck. But I'm still at a loss regarding alternatives that are still commercially available, as it seems that all of his typefaces have been pulled. Any thoughts?

DPape's picture

MyFonts had this note about Thirstype Foundry:

Foundry details

Founded: 1993
Location:
Thirstype
168 Second Avenue
#253
New York, NY 10003
United States of America
phone: 646 654 1506

HVB's picture

By Thirstype, it used to be marketed by Village.
I can't find it there, but there's still a leftover PDF on the site.
- Herb

hrant's picture

Why were Barry Deck's fonts pulled? What about his font(s) at Emigre?

hhp

sansdavid's picture

His fonts at Emigre are still available—it seems to be rather that Thirstype's fonts are no longer commercially available. The old URL thirstype.com redirects to Village, but Village is no longer selling Thirstype fonts. (I've contacted Village to see what they have to say.) Meanwhile, this page from Barry Deck's old web portfolio links to www.3st.com—the new web site of Rick Valicenti, founder of Thirstype. But they don't market fonts at all. On top of all that, Chester Jenkins, who used to run Thirstype after Rick, apparently co-founded Village, but the only Thirstype fonts still available on Village are his, now published by the foundry Constellation. (Well, and two others—Oz and Radio.)

I guess I'll wait to hear from Village.

hrant's picture

Thanks much.

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

Well, now. Here's someone who wants to pay for a legitimate font, but it's no longer available. What are the options? Does he download from a questionable source and try to find Barry Deck to compensate him?

David: Google doesn't always give bizarre results:
http://fontzone.net/?q=Truth

akira1975's picture

Does he download from a questionable source and try to find Barry Deck to compensate him?

I’m not sure which he does. But, the worst thing is to help him download from illegal resources, as Renaissance Man did.

I think you just should contact Barry Deck.
http://finalapproachco.com/who/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/barrydeck
https://twitter.com/barrydeck

hrant's picture

Steve, do you think spontaneously providing that link jibes with your sober questioning of what to do?

And do you think contacting Barry Deck is a crazy idea? BTW he might actually want people to no longer buy/use it, because there's something wrong with it (here noting Dead History's genesis for example). Would that be irrelevant?

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

This issue has been raised before, with many variations.

What if someone buys a font, and their computer crashes and the font is lost? In many cases, just go to the vendor and download it again. Or you created a brand identity or logo and the original designer is unavailable or refuses to help. You look for the font, and it's nowhere to be found.

What if the font company goes out of business with no one picking up the assets? What if the font is abandonware? If I needed a font to recreate something already extant, as opposed to just wanting a particular font, there's no telling what I would do.

It's easy to to be an absolutist, pontificate, and say "the worst thing is to help him download from illegal resources, as Renaissance Man did." I understand that people die, companies go bankrupt, foundries are taken over, and shit happens. In those cases, the legitimacy, morality, or legality of recreating a font ("outline theft") or downloading from "illegal resources" is less clear cut. If you want absolutes (and absolution) join the Republican party or the RC church.

I would NOT recommend a questionable source if there was a legitimate alternative.

This is NOT about "illegal resources," but what to do when all legitimate sources have dried up.

sansdavid's picture

I heard back from Village née Thirstype, so for this particular instance, I'm settled. In other instances, I've always attempted to contact the original foundry and/or designer, and failing that, looked for another cut of the typeface. (An example: OPTI Majer Irregular is no longer available, and is of questionable origin to start with, but was a legacy font picked by a client before I started working with them. We were able to replace that typeface with Filmotype Major across all uses.)

It is a bit ludicrous in the age of the Internet that legitimate (and paying) users of typefaces can't always find a straightforward way to compensate the owners of the intellectual property. But not doing so is still theft. That being said, a designer who allows their font to go "out of print" (as opposed to pulling the font because of some defect) is basically throwing money away—while I believe many end users want to do the right thing, most will only do so if it's made painfully easy for them.

And RM, I just saw your reply, and it is a difficult but relevant gray area—what do you do when there are no legitimate options/resources left? Thankfully in this case, it didn't come to that. And that discussion is probably best left to its own thread.

hrant's picture

Steve, those are all good questions.

Are you sure all legitimate sources have dried up? Has anybody bothered simply emailing Deck first? Without having taken those basic actions, do you think it's OK to quickly point to a source that you yourself feel is unauthorized? And what if the original designer has come to feel that his design was morally flawed and does not want anybody to use it any more?

Was David inadvisably honorable in his due diligence? Note that it took him only one day to properly resolve it.

Do you think it is now a good idea to remove the link you posted?

But not doing so is still theft.

I agree.

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

David: I heard back from Village née Thirstype, so for this particular instance, I'm settled. Does that mean they sold you the font you were looking for? Did they say why it's not readily available? Do they still own the rights? What would you have done if they didn't or couldn't resolve the issue?

David and hpp: Not to compensate the owners of the intellectual property is still theft. If the owners of the intellectual property make it difficult or impossible for others to compensate them, who is the theft from? "The moral core of the universe" doesn't count as an answer.

Kudos to Akira for ostensibly finding ways to contact Barry Deck. However, not one of them has an email address or a contact form, although Barry did post a link to "the West-Egg biscuits and gravy plate" on his website. The Linkedin info essentially duplicates his website info, I'm not going to agree to Linkedin's TOS just to "access Barry Deck’s full profile," in case it may have contact info, and I don't tweet. Would that Barry followed the motto on his website: "Simplify. Scale. Sustain." He doesn't make it simple to contact him, and he did not sustain his own fonts.

That this had a happy ending for David is no reason to be smug and say I told you so. It doesn't address the issue of abandonware, or what to do if all reasonable attempts to make contact fail.

Post the relevant info about how, how much, and where to purchase the font, and I'll remove the link above.

Off topic: Except for "reprinting—with corrections—a legacy document for a client," I don't see why anyone would use that font.

hrant's picture

If the owners of the intellectual property make it difficult or impossible for others to compensate them, who is the theft from?

The same guy of course. Do you think anything not for sale can be stolen?

Post the relevant info about how, how much, and where to purchase the font, and I'll remove the link above.

That's more gracious of you than at least one person here typically is*, but I feel you're setting the bar conveniently too high. Unless you think people are lying (and why would they?) about being able to contact the relevant parties and finding a proper resolution, once somebody says they found a legitimate means why not give that the benefit of the doubt and remove the illegitimate link? And that's even assuming your stance above is ethical.

* http://typophile.com/node/100786

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

Q. "Once somebody says they found a legitimate means why not give that the benefit of the doubt and remove the illegitimate link?"

A. "Once somebody says they found a legitimate means why not give the rest of us that info?" The one who gets an answer should not just be a Hoover and suck up all the info and return nothing.

The Type ID forum serves not only those looking for an ID but the rest of us. Not letting us all in on the solution is a tease and a disservice. It's as if "I'm satisfied, but I'm not giving details," akin to an inquirer getting an answer by email the rest of us can't see.

And hpp, you take your swipes directly at others in response to them, which is fine, if a little tiresome. Please do not use threads where they do not post to take indirect swipes at them, where they probably do not have a chance to respond. You're better than that. Or should be.

hrant's picture

I agree that sharing the finding would be a good idea (and it might have been merely an oversight on David's part, considering he solved the problem he had posed). But:
- I feel not sharing that info isn't nearly as bad as sharing that Fontzone link.
- Indicating that a legitimate solution was -pretty easily- found is plenty of reason to remove that link.
- How hard is it to simply contact Village, like David said he did?

So, what are the grounds for keeping that link up there?

Please don't feel pressured by me - but do feel pressured by yourself, since I'm confident you know what the right thing to do is.

they probably do not have a chance to respond.

Which is clearly not true in this case.

I would look harder to see the real problems here.

hhp

sansdavid's picture

I will share the solution to my particular issue (and apologies for not doing it earlier), but I don't want to get bogged down in a larger discussion of abandonware, as I don't think this is the forum for it. (I do think it's a necessary discussion, however, and not always clear-cut.)

In my particular case, I contacted the foundry, and spoke with the principal there. Given his good relationship and history with my client, and the scope of this project (being a single reprint of a long in-print book), he granted me a gratis license for use on this project only. The font is still not commercially available; if I wanted to purchase a new license for a new project, I would have to continue my quest, or find a new typeface. Had I been unsuccessful with the foundry, I would have tried to contact the designer directly. Had all avenues failed, I would have needed to confer with my client on how they wanted to proceed and/or worked directly with the printer to update the files (at a significant expense).

hrant's picture

David, great to see such an air-tight protocol.

Steve might say (and I would agree) that you solved your dilemma thanks to a privileged position (which does not mean you didn't deserve it). But to me that still doesn't excuse an unauthorized link. To me the only justification for that would be if one believes the designer/distributor has acted in an unethical way, and going against their will is an act of justice.

When a commercial font is pulled from the market, there's usually an honorable reason. Is it bad to reciprocate honorable behavior? And if it's not an honorable reason, does that mean we can/should be dishonorable?

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

"When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things."

As a grownup, I have abandoned the comfort of seeing things in black and white.

http://www.google.com/search?q=moral+dilemmas

hrant's picture

But it's possible to move from a very dark shade of gray to a lighter one.

hhp

Renaissance Man's picture

Touché!

hrant's picture

So go for it my friend.

hhp

Syndicate content Syndicate content