Typophile - How much of a font do you draw out by hand. - Comments

Haha, thats great. :)

Quincunx — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:09:01 -0700

Haha, thats great. :)

Sorry! Here it is...

Stefan Seifert — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 02:00:53 -0700

Sorry!

Here it is...

> PS Guess, that’s why

Quincunx — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:06:59 -0700

> PS Guess, that’s why Bodoni did such excellent letters.. ;-)

Capuccino for the win! ;)

btw, you’re dropping the r in my name. :p

>.. with a capuccino, and

Stefan Seifert — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 08:01:22 -0700

>.. with a capuccino, and sketch out some ideas. :)

PS Guess, that’s why Bodoni did such excellent letters.. ;-)

Stefano

Jelma, this Cappuccino

Stefan Seifert — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:11:38 -0700

Jelma,

this Cappuccino argument ist damned good! ;-)

I agree
Stefan

I don’t see why such a

shockomotive — Sun, 30 Mar 2008 05:20:25 -0700

I don’t see why such a hard distinction should exist between drawing on paper or with bezier curves.

Particularly because the two processes are not diametrical opposites but merely the process of giving shape to an idea that is executed with different tools. Great results can be achieved with both, like a good sketch can be done with a pencil, marker or even a wax crayon.

Of course I would never deny that each method has got its very own feel to it. Sketching on paper just feels so much different on putting down the points, but I would never regard someone who prefers to work without paper as inferior to a sketching person.

Personally, I tend to draw up sketches first, model my characters in vectors afterwards, without actually scanning anything. Then I print out characters I am not satisfied with and touch them up with opaque white and black and a brush. I can’t exactly say how, but the brush gives me excellent curve control. Then I apply changes to the vectors and repeat all of that for quite a while.

“I like to kick off my

dezcom — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:54:42 -0700

“I like to kick off my shoes, sit in a relaxing chair with a capuccino, and sketch out some ideas. :)”

a man after my own heart :-)

I do have my capucino shoeless at the computer though :-)

ChrisL

> The question is, are

Quincunx — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:00:00 -0700

> The question is, are Beziérs then able to keep his original FEELING of the form he found. The even most minimal change can destroy everything. That is a fact, in my eyes at least. Digital and analog design are different from each other.

No, those changes caused by the technique are unavoidable. You’re right.

But I feel I can get close enough to my pencil drawings. The changes that occur are not a problem: the characters change a great deal while working on the typeface anyway. Usually my semi-finished (digital) characters don’t really look like my original drawings at all. Yet, I find it handy to have something to go by, when using béziers. Maybe when I get even more used to working with béziers, I get better at starting directly on screen...
However, I like it that I don’t have to sit at the computer to design the shapes themselves. I like to kick off my shoes, sit in a relaxing chair with a capuccino, and sketch out some ideas. :)

Stephan, Yes, beziers have a

dezcom — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:38:36 -0700

Stephan,
Yes, beziers have a mark that can be felt in the final product but so does every other tool ever used by man in history. The brush, the scribe the chisel, the brad-nibbed pen, the flexible pointed steel pen, the flat brush, the rubylith and exacto knife, the clay tablet, the papyrus, the stone, the etching plate, the steel punch, etc., have each left their mark on the final product. The truth is, between the flexibility of beziers and OpenType, there is far more possible now than ever with historic tools. Besides, no one is restricted from using historic tools if they wish. There is still some fine lettering cut in marble and granite to be found and superb calligraphy as well. I understand old masters like Zapf still work in traditional means and allow others to carry out the work to conclusion.

ChrisL

Yes, I did understand,

Stefan Seifert — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:02:12 -0700

Yes, I did understand, Jelma.
It was meant in a more general sense. ;-)

You catched the point but what happens when you translate your analog design into Beziérs? That is the critical situation, I guess. No, I ‘know’.
I do not mean by that that the designer will not be able to do a design that comes quite ‘near’ to what he wanted. The question is, are Beziérs then able to keep his original FEELING of the form he found.
The even most minimal change can destroy everything. That is a fact, in my eyes at least.
Digital and analog design are different from each other. I don’t like to say, computer is just a tool.
It isn’t. At least a tool that forces his user to do things that in original sense he didn’t wanted to do.
And in the worst case he doesn’t even recognize the change it has made out of his design, of his shapes (that he drew spontaneously and with feeling/inspiration - call it as you like!).

That has to be discussed. At least among those who do not look on type in a purely intellectual way ;-)
What the old fellows did was a craft. And in a craft automatically feeling and inspiration was envolved (it had to - if you think how tiny those sculptures were that the first engravers as Jenson did!!) Here we are talking about processes in the subconscious! That is the thrill.
And, as you said, doing things - as I now formulated it (I think it is the same thing you meant) in the subconscious - it is far away from working with curves on the monitor. (at first)
And so I once came to the conclusion to work from the start on monitor as the engraver did in metal (did they have sketches in the beginning? I speak of Jenson f.e.?) In a way to introduce subconscious processes again in a design method that in the end we are forced to manage.

After all its only a theory, I know. And as someone said, maybe its without rules, at all...

salute
Stefan

> Ah, I think we used a

Quincunx — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:30:42 -0700

> Ah, I think we used a wrong word with ‘spontaneous’ think it was FEELING that we talked about. Am I right?

I meant that there is no other concern than the line, curve or shape. E.g. no extrema, handles, control points and whatnot. :)

Hi all, and especially Jelma

Stefan Seifert — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:19:37 -0700

Hi all,
and especially Jelma and James,

I also spend years retouching films of classic letter shapes ( I started then with Garamond, then Jenson and also Bodoni - the original one that was also used, I think, to make 72 of ITC Bodoni). It was and is a great joy to do so!

It required a lot of time but it was very satisfying more from a philosophic and maybe even meditational point of view.
I have to admit I never really finished a usable typeface in that way. Yet, it buildt may grounds from which I live up ’til today.
My first Garmond letters (the Imprimerie one from Paris) were drawings with pencil (up to even 30 cm high) which I later inked on transparent paper (that I had glued on a sort of transparent acryl material to give it a body). Then I did Bodoni directly inking and scratching on film (20cm) to end up with scratching and inking with a folio pencil and cutter on very tiny films for Jenson (lower than 1cm) The later method - so far for the analog ones - seemed to be the best. The smaller you can get, the more successful your letter shapes are. And by the way, although there is discussions and theories and systems..we are still talking about shapes in the first line, don’t we? ;-)

Than came the computer and Beziérs, shook my world.
The rest is to leave for another discussion (of how to treat Beziérs) (and get to know Raph!)
It is all may time, that I spend now, to try and do researches of making shapes with that curves that do NOT look and feel like digital digital digital..
Ah, I think we used a wrong word with ‘spontaneous’ think it was FEELING that we talked about. Am I right? ;-)

Salute
Stefan

Hi William! >I think of it

Stefan Seifert — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:29:26 -0700

Hi William!

>I think of it as “sculpting” letters, because you add a little, take away a little—as I guess you do with clay—until you like the look.

>Somewhere on another thread like this David Berlow said something like: whatever you do before hand, it doesn’t start to count until it’s on the computer screen. That’s because Bezier curves tends to push you in certain directions, which are yours to use or contradict. Bezier curves are the medium you’re working in. I can understand that in a script face, the hand *written* original might be much more important.

Great!
I will go deeper in this thread. Actually I am at work.
Typedesign IS sculpturing infact.
And Beziér DO push things in their direction.
So you have to search ways to put spontaneity in THIS process,
directly on the monitor.

Yes, Jelma, beeing spontaneous on monitor is very hard to achieve (just like
the art of engraving was) but it is possible after years of training.

Someone said what about the undo comand.
It is also a great evil! But thats another aspect to discuss..

Stefan
salutes all

I still usually work out the

Mark Simonson — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:59:33 -0700

I still usually work out the basic concept of a font on paper first. It’s faster and easier to figure out the proportions and feel and logic of the structure on paper. But I stopped doing final art on paper (or any other physical medium) over twenty years ago when I started working digitally. Learning to work with Béziers is no more difficult than learning to work with french curves, ellipse and circle templates, compasses, technical pens and all that, but it’s infinitely more forgiving.

…I’d planed to try

James Puckett — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:57:11 -0700

…I’d planed to try cutting finished shapes in Rubilith or translucent vinyl if I were working by hand.

IIRC Adrian Frutiger often refines type by cutting it out with a scissors.

How much of a font do you draw out by hand.

James Puckett — Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:35:40 -0800

I know that most font designers start their designs with sketches of varying levels of detail and quality. But do type designers draw out entire alphabets, or just the draw key characters and the design elements that give a font personality, and then use the computer to build up the rest?

Typophile - How much of a font do *you* draw out by hand. - Comments

Haha, thats great. :)

Sorry! Here it is...

> PS Guess, that’s why

>.. with a capuccino, and

Jelma, this Cappuccino

I don’t see why such a

“I like to kick off my

> The question is, are

Stephan, Yes, beziers have a

Yes, I did understand,

> Ah, I think we used a

Hi all, and especially Jelma

Hi William! >I think of it

I still usually work out the

…I’d planed to try

How much of a font do *you* draw out by hand.

Typophile - How much of a font do you draw out by hand. - Comments

How much of a font do you draw out by hand.