Typophile - Margin Dimensions! Huh? - Comments

Megan rather. Sorry for the

Christopher Dean — Thu, 8 May 2008 17:39:51 -0700

Megan rather. Sorry for the typo.

Meghan, My name is

Christopher Dean — Thu, 8 May 2008 17:19:00 -0700

Meghan,

My name is Christopher ean.

I am a grad student at NSCAD studying typography and reading comprehension.

I met your friend who works at MAC in the mall.

I want to talk to you about participating in an experiment.

Please email me at typographer@gmail.com

If you know who the

Dan Weaver — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:41:01 -0800

If you know who the publisher is get them involved in the layout issues. Paper weight alone can change everything. A little of early consulting will save you huge head aches especially when the client changes specs. If you have a good working relationship with the printer/publisher you can nip any client changes later in the project. This is more a method of work flow rather than mechanics.

I want to point out that

charles_e — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:27:51 -0800

I want to point out that most of the trimming, etc., comments in charles’ first post are probably irrelevent, as the imposition system of the printer should deal with all that.

Irrelevant? Back in the late 1990s I routinely specified a half-inch head margin. Several books when done (trimmed & bound), wound up with head margin closer to 5/16 — and on an angle, to boot. Was that a mistake by the printer? Sure. So, best case is the printer agrees, and you can reject the job & have it done over at the printer’s expense (& there goes your schedule). But the printer may insist that such trimming (3/16s off) was within his specs. Or the printer might say that you tacitly accepted the trim when you approved F&Gs, or failed to ask for F&Gs to approve.

I’m not talking about imposition problems, just flat out sloppy trimming. When that happened, I checked with a couple friends who managed the production of a lot of books, and they said, yes, it’s no longer safe to specify a half-inch head margin if you really need a half an inch.

If your printers still hold to 3/32 on trimming, a half-inch head margin is probably safe.

I want to point out that

Don McCahill — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:27:45 -0800

I want to point out that most of the trimming, etc., comments in charles’ first post are probably irrelevent, as the imposition system of the printer should deal with all that. You should only have to worry about what is happening inside the crop marks. Check with the printer to confirm this (by the dimensions you give, it sounds like this is being printed commercially).

As for the margin dimensions, I agree totally with charles’ figures. You can even get away with as little as a 3 pica (half inch) margin, if the text is large enough for the measure. The wider margins are nicer for those of us with fat fingers, of course.

Megan, I don’t have time

Ricardo Cordoba — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:21:52 -0800

Megan, I don’t have time to write out a long post just now, but if you ever feel like a good read on book design, including margins and some of the other things mentioned here so far, here are a couple of good ones (for starters, because there are quite a few now):

The Thames & Hudson Manual of Typography, by Ruari McLean

Designing books: practice and theory, by Jost Hochuli and Robin Kinross

When you open a book up, the

Gary Long — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:03:42 -0800

When you open a book up, the feathering out of the pages has the effect of making paper visible beyond the outer margins. Thus the white space beyond the text blocks seem greater than the margin on an individual page. This needs to be considered too when devising margins. You may want to make the outer margins slightly smaller than you would if you were just considering individual pages. Trimming and inserting pages of a spread in a bound book to judge appearance is a good way of helping get a handle on this.

One thing to add about this

charles_e — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:33:03 -0800

One thing to add about this book, you do have the illustrations to consider, and how they fit on the page. Usually, images are aligned with the x-height of the first text line, sometimes with the ascender height of the first text line.

Ok, if the images are short & you aren’t running text below them, that could look awkward. You might have to drop the text block down a bit on the page. You can just sink the images more, but that can get tricky.

Now if you have no running heads, the images so placed will ride higher, perhaps too high. So if you have no running head, I’d increase the top margin a bit. If you can run text below the images, no problem. But if you can’t you may have to fiddle with the top margin; I can’t just give you a number.

But I can’t imagine book of short stories without running heads. The running head, by the way, should (almost always) be closer to the text block than the trim; you usually don’t want a large white band between the text & running head. You can use a device such as a rule below the RH to gain a little more space, but not much, and such rules carry their own problems & promises. Usually, you omit the running head on a page with only art, BTW.

With that 7-1/2 inch vertical trim, you could drop the whole type page (text plus RH) down a bit, with the expense of a slightly bigger foot margin to match. Just don’t unbalance your inside & outside margins with too big a head margin.

The point is that you need to be able to place the full-page illustrations well, and that might take some fiddling.

FWIW

Thanks so much charles_e.

megan fildes — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:14:26 -0800

Thanks so much charles_e. That was an amazing amount of information, and will be very helpful not only for this book but also for others in the future.

Binding is important — how

charles_e — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:08:07 -0800

Binding is important — how will it be bound? For example, with perfect binding, you trim off 1/8” of the F&Gs (folded & gathered sheets) & glue what remains. Notch binding, on the other hand, doesn’t cut off any paper, but cuts a notch in the signatures, which helps the eventual glue to hold things together better. Still, notch bindings are usually “tight,” and I often use the same inside margin for notch bound as for perfect bound books.

You need to set the inside margin first, for the binding, because if you get that one too small, words are “lost” — really, hard to read, unless you pry the book open. For perfect bound or notch bound paperbacks, I use a minimum of 13/16-inch (4.875 picas). 5-picas would be better, and even 7/8 inch (5.25 picas) is reasonable; almost necessary with perfect binding. With Smyth-sewn, case-bound books, you can use as little as 3/4 inch (4.5 picas), but I doubt the book you’re working on will be swen.

Now unless the publisher is requiring a certain number of characters per page, you also know your outside margin better not be any smaller. Optically, if you use the same numerical value, the inside margin will be tighter, due to the binding. The usual aesthetic would have the outside margin even larger.

OK, 5-7/8 inches equals 35.25 picas. A 5 pica gutter and 5.25 pica outside margin leaves possible measure of 25 picas. If you can go a little less (say, 24 picas), that give you a better outside margin.

With the head margin, the classical look was always 1/2 inch (3 picas) to the top of the type page (ascender of the running head if there is one, ascender of the first text line otherwise). But trimming today isn’t what it use to be. If you use 1/2 inch, they will mis-trim some signatures and you’ll wind up with a top margin that is sometimes too small. So, even if I want a fairly tight top margin, I’d allow 9/16 inches (3.375 picas). Remember, that’s to the ascender position, not baseline. The bottom margin should be at least twice the top margin. If you’re using a foot folio, you don’t have to count it in the 1+ inches at the bottom, but if you are using a running foot & they are reasonably long, you have to pay attention to how that affects the bottom white space.

These are by no means classical — those ratios are available in books such as Bringhurst. But it gives a nice enough page. Be sure your leading isn’t so great as to overpower the margins.

Finally, even after 30 years of setting & designing books, as a final check, I trim my layout sheets to the final book trim size to see how the white space you actually will get looks with the text.

Hope that’s of some use ...

Ha, right. And sometimes my

megan fildes — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:10:41 -0800

Ha, right. And sometimes my multi-tasking skills result in not quite finishing a task. It’s an approx. 200 page book of short(er) stories (same author) which will have black and white illustrations through out. It sounds like there will be approx. 30 illustrations in total, however they will be contained to a separate page from any of the text so manuscript will be a solid block of text. The dimensions are a little bit more squat then what I’m use to working with (at lest for this company). I’ve never thought to ask this forum for examples or suggestions before, would love some hints on how people come to their margins.

Thanks for asking Miss Tiffany.

What kind of book is it?

Miss Tiffany — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:11:43 -0800

What kind of book is it?

Margin Dimensions! Huh?

megan fildes — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:04:31 -0800

Hi!
I’m kind of new to the book design business, I’ve done three books up to date, and I am still flirting with the process of creating an attractive and logical margin. I am now working on a new book with the slightly odd dimensions of 5 7/8 x 7 1/2. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions of well done books in this size, or margin sizes they would recommend!!!
Thanks Guys!!
M.