Typophile - Helvetica neutral? - Comments

And now that Wesley has

pattyfab — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:18:10 -0800

And now that Wesley has edited his post... the five comments above it no longer make any sense chronologically.

To Poms: I did not really

Wesley.Bancroft — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:18:37 -0800

To Poms:

I did not really have a specific serif typeface in mind, I am more curious as to why no Serif faces are brought up. I have been long aware of Kai Bernau’s “Neutral” typeface studies, and they got me to wondering?... why has not anyone done a study on the neutrality of Serif typefaces. Maybe there already is or maybe I will do it. :)

Also, I think I came up with a idea as to why Serif faces are not discussed as neutral: the majority of the time they are not used for display purposes... I guess?

Thanks.

That’s funny, I think of

Thomas Phinney — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:51:35 -0800

That’s funny, I think of Stone Serif and Officina Serif as both having a fair bit of flavor, much more than Utopia or Times.

For serifs, I’d say Utopia

ryanholmes — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:19:48 -0800

For serifs, I’d say Utopia and Stone Serif are pretty darn neutral. Officina Serif, too. Of course, boring might be equally descriptive.....

And I will still contend

pattyfab — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:59:37 -0800

And I will still contend that there are plenty of corporate identities, logos, and environmental graphics that feature serif fonts. I’m on my way out the door so I can’t dig them up for you right now. But it’s true that sans serif fonts do convey more of a “corporate” feel and are in more common use. Ironically since the sans is probably more “innovative” and the serif more “classic” ergo neutral?

But this thread is about neutralilty, not in any particular usage. Neutrality can influence what font you choose for a text book or information graphics as much as for signage or corporate identity. A script can even seem neutral in the right situation.

To Pattyfab: I guess I meant

Wesley.Bancroft — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:39:09 -0800

To Pattyfab:

I guess I meant display in the regard to Corporate Identity, Logo Design, Environmental Graphics, stuff like that. Not necessarily confined to print specifically or the typographic term “display font”.

Also, neutrality does apply to Times New Roman (which I love), but again is that only due to it’s frequent use?

Saturation always does something to ideas. Why?

Serif faces are used all the

pattyfab — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:11:26 -0800

Serif faces are used all the time for display purposes. I don’t think the concept of neutrality only applies to display fonts either. I guess it could be argued that sans fonts, being stripped down, convey more of a “neutral” air. But the point of typographic “neutrality”, as I understand it, is that the font does not draw attention to itself, and there are plenty of serif fonts that this idea could apply to. Times Roman for one. Minion for another. Janson, Baskerville, even some Caslons are very understated.

@Wesley.Bancroft Yes, good

poms — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:06:53 -0800

@Wesley.Bancroft
Yes, good question! What “serifish” face you have in your mind?

@Helvetica
How boring is a dissertation on Helvetica, come on, nearly everything is said, felt, shown, etc. about this (obscure) phenomenon called H.

PS It’s nearly “Amtsgrotesk” to me. Or it looked at me from a plumber’s car (place:germany) 10-15 years ago. Nothing dangerous or malicious about it, it’s only a typeface. But everything must develop further. So give Helvetica a long weekend.

Quick Question, might seem a

Wesley.Bancroft — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:15:21 -0800

Quick Question, might seem a bit silly. Why when discussing neutrality of type do I never hear anyone bring up SERIF FACES? Probably an obvious reason, like the archaic use of such of these type specimens or something like that, but please could someone enlighten me?

Thanks.

I should add that it would

Thomas Phinney — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:01:31 -0800

I should add that it would be handy to actually define “neutral”... to me I think of that as being unobtrusive and lacking flavor (which may sound negative, but I don’t mean it to be). Franklin Gothic is more neutral than Helvetica. Frutiger is more neutral than Franklin Gothic, and Myriad is more neutral than Frutiger.

Cheers,

I like your insight here,

William Berkson — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:34:49 -0800

I like your insight here, Paul. I think there was, and maybe still is, something of an aesthetic snob appeal in the ’international style’, both in type and in architecture. It wasn’t sold just as an appealing new style. It was that everything else had to be ’wrong’ and inferior. Tom Wolfe satirized the movement in architecture in his From the Bauhaus to Our House. One of his points was that people were able to sell buildings that people never liked, because the designers and sellers appealed to snobbery. By liking the designs showed you one of the elect, a superior being.

thinking on this a bit more,

paul d hunt — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:17:21 -0800

thinking on this a bit more, it seems to me that Helvetica was designed with a subliminal message built into it, which is applied to anything that it is used on. that message is: “buy me (or suffer the consequences of being uncool)”
although this may be a case of chicken & egg, where it is hard to distinguish whether this is really built into the face or became attached to the face later by association.
this is the reason why i believe that Hevetica cannot be be deemed as neutral, even if at some point in time it may have been (which i have my doubts on).

I see you got more response

Weeman — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:27:13 -0800

I see you got more response here Mark, so I won’t repost my answers from the other forum.

1. Ubiquitous, leaden,

Eben Sorkin — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:54:23 -0800

1. Ubiquitous, leaden, dull

2. Mostly no.

3. No way.

Sii - sorry I put it in such

love helvetica hate helvetica — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 05:10:41 -0800

Sii - sorry I put it in such a confusing way!

I am producing a real book as a final outcome but then have to write the dissertation on the project and report on the final piece I produced.

Helvetica neutral?

love helvetica hate helvetica — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:15:55 -0800

Hi everyone,

I am doing my dissertation on Helvetica and would be ever greatful if you could answer a few quetions, I only need a few words so it shouldn’t take long!

1. Which 3 words would you use to describe Helvetica?

2. Do you have any emotional response to Helvetica and its uses?

3. In your opinion, is Helvetica ‘neutral’?

Mark