Typophile - InDesign Black Output on PDF Export - Comments

@kurt: Looking at colour

elliot100 — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 04:27:55 -0700

@kurt:

Looking at colour values in the RGB PDF is a distraction - you’re specifying your colours in CMYK and printing them in CMYK (or just K).

CMYK and RGB colours aren’t just different numerical ways of specifying a colour - c0 m0 y0 k100 does not equal r0 g0 b0, and you can’t just convert to and from RGB and CMYK.

As Quincunx says, separations make it clearer what your end result is going to be, because they show what ink is actually going to get laid down.

So I always send a composite CMYK PDF to the printers, and if there’s anything other than CMYK in the art, PDF separations as well.

You can also check the

Quincunx — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:06:51 -0700

You can also check the separations in either InDesign, Photoshop or Acrobat Pro. If everything in the rest of your workflow is right, you should see that 100K will plate just fine. If you have your apps set right, you should see 100% when you use the color picker in separations in Acrobat Pro for example (Advanced -> Print Production -> Output Preview with your desired color profile).

Well, upon closer

kurtdurfey — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:57:17 -0700

Well, upon closer examination, it looks like the .pdf will actually plate okay. We’re running a short run on the copier, and 10,000 more in black ink on press, so we needed to make sure that the black exported at 100%. When we exported it and took to to the copier, though, we needed to print rich black (even though we weren’t printing CMYK) to get a 100% value.

Something to note for production, I s’pose.

Going back to the original

kurtdurfey — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:20:30 -0700

Going back to the original issue, I’ve working on a newly installed version of InDesign CS3, and my 100% black is exporting as dark grey. it’s an issue with print because a black that’s not completely black screens the type and it compromises the legibility of thin copy. Contrary to everybody’s assumption that “if it says 100% black, it’ll print 100% black”, there’s something going on in my InDesign color setting that’s converting it, and I need to figure it out.

The oddest part is that, if I click on the color in my tool bar, the RGB samples at low numbers. If it were a TRUE black, those should all show up as zeros, right? If I convert it to 400% rich black, then it show RGB values at zero, but with CM&Y at zero, RGB is registering values, and that ain’t black.

Personally, I couldn’t care less how it looks on screen, but it has to print correctly. Converting it rich black is a good idea because this particular job is going on a copier, but it would be problematic if I were going to press and the Black plate showed up as a 90% screen.

I’ll tool around in other forums to see if I can’t figure it out. I wish I knew how that other fella fixed it.

Just a couple of

Thomas Phinney — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:15:28 -0800

Just a couple of notes:

Setting black elements to “registration” will print as a 400% rich black (full CMYK) on color PostScript devices. As this is well over the total ink limit, it’s will look like crud (even on toner-based devices such as PS color laser printers).

I agree with the posters who are saying that the Acrobat PDF display is “not a bug.” Have you ever studied color management at all? For pre-press purposes, the whole point is typically to maintain visual distinctions and map the entire gamut of one device to another. If Acrobat displays a 0C-0M-0Y-100K black as the darkest possible black, what it is it supposed to do with a 100-100-100-100 black? (Okay, maybe it’s a 30-30-30-100 black, same idea - it needs to be darker than that previous black.) If you make the PDF in RGB, with the right settings, presumably you can get a 0-0-0 RGB black, and that’s the darkest black, period. It will display great on screen. It will print on color devices as a maximum rich black, though, which may or may not be desirable.

You could also try in Acrobat going to Preferences > Color Management > Conversion Options turning off “Use black point compensation, and see what effect that has.

Note also: If you are having a problem with your black looking grey *in print*, in many workflows the best solution when making documents in InDesign is to go to Edit > Color Settings and under “Color Management Policies” set CMYK to “Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles)”. This essentially turns off color management for CMYK elements in the document, such as text.

With that configuration you can still place RGB photos and have them properly color managed (set RGB to “Preserve Embedded Profiles”), and Bob’s yer uncle. Leastways, this has always worked well for me in InDesign.

Regards,

I’m with Patty, one of the

timd — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 03:41:26 -0800

I’m with Patty, one of the major uses of Acrobat is for client approval and if it doesn’t represent the project accurately it isn’t doing the job. An RGB hack, while it might improve the appearance black, doesn’t necessarily represent spot colours and images well.

Tim

Miguelzinho, yes I have

pattyfab — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:32:22 -0800

Miguelzinho, yes I have changed that preference.

Quincunx, it still just seems odd to me that 100%K will not render as black in a pdf. I do use rich black for printing, but that’s beside the point. 100%K ought to look black, period. It does when you make a pdf from Quark.

if your running InDesign CS2

Miguelzinho — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:30:33 -0800

if your running InDesign CS2 then go to >Prefenrences > The Appearance of Black.

It will give you options for the appreance of black on gray scale and RGB devices. Or have you already tried that?

> I create my files in CMYK

Quincunx — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:57:40 -0800

> I create my files in CMYK because I work in print. I don’t understand why black doesn’t look black. That seems like a bug to me. And I am clearly not the only one bothered by it, as evidenced by this thread.

I did change my preferences in InDesign for Appearance of Black to Rich Black, and am hopeful this will solve the problem but I haven’t tested it out.

If you are going to let a client sign off on a pdf on screen, making it an RGB PDF is not even that strange? (since screens are RGB). If you want it CMYK, add some color to your blacks, and it will look better. I don’t think that’s such a big problem? ;)

> @Quincunx: The original question had nothing to do with Rich Black. The problem lies in the way pdf’s get generated with colormanagement on. Maybe my 14 Sept. post wasn’t very clear… : )

I know the original question was not about rich black, I was commenting on everyone calling K showing up as grey in PDF ’a problem’.

My point was, if you want a good black on screen: use rich black (or RGB). It will make black look more black in PDF. If you are working with black on full color jobs, in most cases it’s wise you use rich black anyway (all non-text objects). If you use only K, the grey in Acrobat isn’t even that far off from the way it will look in print (e.g. crappy greyish black).

I create my files in CMYK

pattyfab — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:12:40 -0800

I create my files in CMYK because I work in print. I don’t understand why black doesn’t look black. That seems like a bug to me. And I am clearly not the only one bothered by it, as evidenced by this thread.

I did change my preferences in InDesign for Appearance of Black to Rich Black, and am hopeful this will solve the problem but I haven’t tested it out.

>>>If I need a client to

Ralf Herrmann — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:42:56 -0800

>>>If I need a client to sign off on a pdf, I need it to look on screen as close as possible to how it will actually print.

Then you should send them a PDF in an RGB color space.
Again, it’s not a bug, and there is nothing for Adobe to fix.

Ralf

@Quincunx: The original

bert_vanderveen — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:54:54 -0800

@Quincunx: The original question had nothing to do with Rich Black. The problem lies in the way pdf’s get generated with colormanagement on. Maybe my 14 Sept. post wasn’t very clear… : )

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

Why is everyone calling it a

pattyfab — Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:50:46 -0800

Why is everyone calling it a ’problem’? :)

Because it is a problem. If I need a client to sign off on a pdf, I need it to look on screen as close as possible to how it will actually print. Saying don’t worry it will print black requires a leap of faith in my clients and I don’t feel comfortable with that. I don’t understand why Adobe can’t fix this bug.

Why is everyone calling it a

Quincunx — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:17:30 -0800

Why is everyone calling it a ’problem’? :)

It is not a problem; it is just the way CMYK or K black looks on screen.

If you chose black (K), it will print as black. If you don’t trust it will, check color separations in Acrobat (or photoshop). If your PDF is for screen only, you could make the black RGB.

And if you want a true, rich black in print; add some color to K, e.g. 0C 60M 30Y 100K (I think this will also look more black on screen. And is obviously only suitable for full color print jobs).

Circehouse - For the benefit

Danny Yee — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:45:11 -0800

Circehouse - For the benefit of the forum, can you tell us your solution? I’m also having this problem! Thanks!

InDesign Black Output on PDF Export

circehouse — Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:56:17 -0800

So I’ve been trying to solve this problem for awhile now. I’ve searched through various forms, and everyone has the same few tips to offer, and of course none of them work.

Does anyone here have that problem? When outputing .pdf files black appears as a grey. It’s driving me crazy. No matter how I adjust appearance of black settings or my rich black portions It still screws me every time. My recent hack has been to simply set all my blacks to “registration” but obviously that’s not the right solution.

Am I missing something obvious? From what i’ve found from others, this is a big problem. I hope cs3 will fix this.