Typophile - Church Identity Starting Point - Comments

I myself am in a profession

Hiroshige — Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:03:20 -0800

I myself am in a profession where those who are the trained practitioners of the field can get the sense that they are the only ones who can properly administer their vocation. And in many senses, that’s true. I know more about the Bible, about spirituality, about worship practices and about how to make Christianity practical than the average person in the pew. The whole philosophy of the Presbyterian “flavor” of Christianity, however, is that every member is a minister who has a place in the world to do some work for God. So my primary job, as my church understands it, is to help “non-professionals,” so to speak, do the work of ministry.

With that paragraph you have already done the design.

You already know the major and minor elements of the design which give your congregation it’s heart and unique character... and that above paragraph practically designs itself. And since I cannot teach you how to communicate with your church elders on the import of how you present yourselves within society - then I await your next half dozen rough drafts.

Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day - Teach a man to fish, and he will eat forever.

___________
Hiro

Nick, just out of curiosity:

lore — Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:48:27 -0800

Nick, just out of curiosity: how much would a job like this cost in your area? Just for the logo. Do you have an idea? Did you ask around in Ukiah? I’d be interested to know.

It seems fairly odd that many churches would spend whatever it takes to build or rent the right building for their congregation but view their actual identity as superficial and not worth paying for when it is actually one of the most vital things it can have.

Not odd at all. From the marketing point of view the logo is probably vital but having nice, comfortable, equipped premises for meetings and activities and a safe place to welcome families and young people is far more important to me.

stop trying to tie them to crap architecture.
Crap architecture? Says who? Hiro, do you actually know what does the building represent for this particular community in that particular area? It might be historically important or it might have sentimental value. I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss it like that.

The first thing I have to

nvhladek — Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:39:20 -0800

The first thing I have to say, is WOW. I did not expect such a response to my posting of my (admittedly pokey) first attempt at designing a logo for this church.

The second thing I need to say is “thank you!” because your comments have been althogether helpful, even the most pointed and critical of them. I have *learned* about design through this discussion, and that is excellent. I have not been offended by anything I have seen posted here. I have benefited, in fact.

Thirdly, for those who have offered free advice, or follow-ups via e-mail addresses, I may contact you soon. It turns out that I have a graphic designer friend who has offered to consult with me as I blunder through the design steps, so I may be able to accomplish what I want with his assistance. But for others who offered, many thanks.

To tie up some other loose ends:
Why do I not have any money to design a logo? Well, not to get too much into the nitty-gritty details of my congregation, but I am an associate pastor for a population in transition. The older congregants would not understand spending US$50 on designing an ID, nevermind that such costs could go into four digits. To ask the leaders in the church for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of dollars, for something as intangible as a logo ... I would be laughed out of the room.

The younger congregation, including our senior pastor, has the idea that you do it right the first time. But she and I have to hold in tension the fact that there are more pressing things we need to pay for in the church, such as new windows. So it’s not that I don’t value paying for good graphic design. It’s just that I cannot wait five years to get to the point where I can ask for the money. At this point, we don’t even have a WEBSITE. Not even a BAD website. So please understand where and how I am trying to lead this congregation.

Going back to the design, I know that my initial attempt did not *feel* right. I just didn’t know *why*. So I figured if I were to post it in a place where people might take my design seriously enough even to say “hire a professional,” it just might be worth my while. And it certainly has been.

Now the analogy will most likely break down here, but I hope you can understand how I am trying to put this principle into practice with graphic design. I am not a graphic designer by trade, but I fully will use people who are designers as guides to help my development in this area. Will I ever be a professional designer? Probably not. But could I produce a decent - not revolutionary - but decent product with the assistance of a community of designers? I would hope so. Now it may turn out that graphic design is not an egaltarian field such as my own. I leave that discussion to designers, however, since I have no desire to get involved in an “in-house” debate, so to speak.

Peace to all of you who have lent your perspective.

- Nick

I really wonder if an

lore — Sat, 6 Jan 2007 09:01:15 -0800

I really wonder if an identity is that important for a church, will having a recognisable individual presence improve its perception by a prospective congregation? etc.

Second every single word, Tim.

Probono and free are 2 different things as far as I know. Pro Bono Publico means “for the public good”. Can a Presbiteryan Church (or any church for that matter) be considered a good cause? I confess the organic wine association is very tempting but I still think it doesn’t qualify as a good cause. Not to me anyway.
Being Italian I grew up very suspicious of churches, especially when they say they have no money. Hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

What an interesting thread

j_polo9 — Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:32:44 -0800

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be!

“I take it very

aluminum — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:35:30 -0800

“I take it very seriously.
The fact of the matter is computers have been put into the hands of everyone and it has become quite damaging to design.”

It hasn’t damaged anything. People are designers. It’s what makes us people. Everyone does it. Always have, always will. Some of us just happen to focus on it and make a living at it.

Now, I’m not saying a logo isn’t important, but in the grand scheme of things, there are often other much more important variables that come into play that effect the success or failure of the venture.

If nvhladek wants to make his own logo, that’s not going to effect the motion of the planets or anything. If he wants advice on how to improve it, and we want to help him, we should.

I just don’t think we need to imply that he’s committed some terrible sin by wanting to explore his own creativity.

The difference that I see,

Miss Tiffany — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:12:22 -0800

The difference that I see, after reading this thread, is that people see things differently and there is NOTHING wrong with that. I applaud Mark for his desire to help where he can. He didn’t use the word free when he offered to help which makes me believe that he sees the value in helping. If someone does think they’d be doing it for free then they don’t see the value that can be had in doing probono. BUT, that is OK. Not everyone can do everything, nor does everyone have TIME to do everything.

It isn’t just a logo. Nick posted on Typophile seeking assistance and suggestions. He sees value in what Typophile has to offer. Why is that not enough to take it seriously?

“Oh please. It’s JUST

mnott — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:15:16 -0800

“Oh please.
It’s *JUST* a logo. We graphic designers take ourselves a tad too seriously at times…”

I take it very seriously.
The fact of the matter is computers have been put into the hands of everyone and it has become quite damaging to design.
I think everyone here can relate stories about clients who are “empowered” by their PC programs.

As for offering help, it

timd — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:59:37 -0800

As for offering help, it seems to me there is still a conceit that design is a ‘guild’ industry that a professional will necessarily achieve a better result than an enthusiastic amateur, one will probably be quicker than the other and, hopefully, have avoided some of the pitfalls, however anyone who has access to even a basic computer can create. And, if someone has taken the trouble to come up with a concept and sought help or critiques, then I am happy to advise them.

Tim

The value of helping people

TheMark — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:09:14 -0800

The value of helping people is for me, pretty valuable and if a person does not like my work..well I never take that personal - its all a matter of taste. But if I have some spare time I would rather help somebody than scrath my ego. Besides - it’s all learning and getting better.

One can never make a 100% on each asignment and it’s not the biggest payoffs that made me happy... It’s the coolest job and the happiest of clients...

But lets not use this forum about a logo for this kind of discussion, huh?

good point, j_polo9!

battlefield — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 04:16:50 -0800

good point, j_polo9!

The curious thing I have

j_polo9 — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 03:38:11 -0800

The curious thing I have found in doing work for free is that I always seem merely to be giving the mouse a cookie...

And in most instances, if a person does not value the work enough to pay for it then what value will he find in it being done for free?

The funny part about this

TheMark — Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:44:24 -0800

The funny part about this whole discussion, for me, is many of you tell this wellmeaning preist that he should find someone to do pro bono work for him, but nobody actually offers their help. And it seems to me that all the time you super experts use on this discussion and website shows me that you could easily find time do a better logo for the man...

To quote Milinium; “It’s *JUST* a logo”! And it is - just ONE logo...

Dear mr. nvhladek. If your not in TOO much of a hurry and don’t mind working with designers overseas - write me an e-mail and we’ll see if we can help you... pro bono - OFCOURSE! :o)

We love beautiful things
mark@enterthemark.com

You could say that any

j_polo9 — Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:29:03 -0800

You could say that any company or organization does not need an identity to surive, that is not the point nor is it wise. Lack of an identity is still part of your identity, it just shows rather poorly for your organization.

Certain social views hold aesthetics as useless and might condem the use of church funds where they might be spent with more “meaning” in other areas. But people forget that Aesthetics is the philisophical branch that is tied in with Ethics and should achieve many things to do good for the church that can only be done Aesthetically.

With so many religions and branches and competing branches of these churches the right identity can set apart this particular church with it’s values and goals; it can create a road map for the success of the church and inspire new members to attend. It seems fairly odd that many churches would spend whatever it takes to build or rent the right building for their congregation but view their actual identity as superficial and not worth paying for when it is actually one of the most vital things it can have.

Graphic design can greatly

Brian_ — Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:01:22 -0800

Graphic design can greatly enhance a church’s ability to communicate but they do not need an identity to survive.

If you don’t have a budget, how will you pay for web hosting, brochures, printing a 4 color logo, shipping, etc? That is like saying.. “I need a car. Where can I find a free car? Maybe I will make one.”

Also think of it this way: You don’t have the budget to do it incorrectly.

You might try going online and finding a presbyterian congregation whose identity you like, and ask them for assistance.

Church Identity Starting Point

nvhladek — Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:41:50 -0800

I am the associate pastor at the First Presbyterian Church of Ukiah, CA and was brought on to work with youth and families and revitalize the congregation’s aging population. Step #1 was get a website with a reasonable, simple design, and a logo to suit it.

So I have started with this design concept, but am wondering what would be some helpful directions I could take with it (including start over).

An explanation of the design:

The celtic cross is the centerpiece of the church’s architecture.
The five “lines” mimic the roofline of the church. They also represent the five values of our congregation taken from our purpose statement.
The blue and green represent the natural landscape of Ukiah, which is an agricultural community in Mendocino County in Northern California.

A tension I am also trying to convey:
The piece is attempting to convey a sense of simplicity because many of the folks here resonate with traditional values.
I am also trying to communicate a slightly progressive tone, since Ukiah is also a young community located in wine country that values organic/sustainable living.

Please let me know what you think with frankness and forthrightness. I am an amateur but very teachable.