Typophile - Understanding cyrillic letters? - Comments

> how one weights the

hrant — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:49:07 -0800

> how one weights the choices

Non-deterministically. Non-Modernistically. As best one can.
Which is always better than either dismissing the issue or running away.

> design their core glyphs first with a mind clear of your own.

Clear? Never! :-)

Concerning Latin what I meant was that if one needed “native” advice the way you worry it needs to be done, one might be in worse shape than for Cyrillic.

If you mean that Latin is more free than Cyrillic nativity-wise, I would agree on a certain scale, but never completely, and because it’s used so much more broadly the net issue is at best comparable. For example note the issue of acute/grave accent angles in Polish versus French, or the particular -if nonformalized- preferences in certain African lanaguages that use Latin.

> it’s of benefit to examine what Latin’s done, how and why.

Certainly. Study, but not emulate, not per se.

In the same way that type should study chirography and take away things like stroke contrast, but not because of where it’s coming from, but because it’s good.

And these two can be combined: in Thai the “traditional” style is monoline, but looking at Latin and being inspired to introduce stroke contrast (as is now done) is a good thing. But being inspired because it’s from Latin (and/or chirography) can only bite you in end.

hhp

Dez, would you stop that,

dberlow — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:02:40 -0800

Dez, would you stop that, please. I mean, at least put some caption(s) indicating who’s who. Otherwise it’s just gratuitous stooges, (or is that what you mean)?

Paul: All of the above.
I’ve seen that spec. The mystery left in this work, (regardless of script) is how one weights the choices: geographically, by population density, to a historical time or technology, or etc., so when one making the gross and then detailed decisions, one is targeting something less than all, or looking long at the end of ones own tail. I think, in general, if you want to serve them best you have to design their core glyphs first with a mind clear of your own. I.E we design around our use of our l.c. e.g.

Hrant:David, I guess pity those who need native advice for Latin. :-)
Either I don’t understand, or the word pity translates to serve if I say the same thing?
The point is, Latin has been hyper-styled for obvious reasons (massive cultural and ethnic absorbsion plus geographic spread, so, as other scripts are freed to do so, it’s of benefit to examine what Latin’s done, how and why. No?

Even more than bravery I

hrant — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:53:17 -0800

Even more than bravery I think Sava is notable for its sensitivity. The “Y”-shape variance between the three scripts it supports encapsulates what I’ve said about “anti-identicality”.

http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/pdfs/SAVA/SavaPro-Regular.pdf

hhp

Chris, Yuri Gordon’s book

twardoch — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:11:14 -0800

Chris,

Yuri Gordon’s book is in Russian only but it’s useful even if you don’t read a single word in Russian. The illustration and the drawings included there already make it a good investment.

David,

> Should that advice come from the Bulgars for whom
> it was originaly intended? the Moravians who first
> received it? The Bulgars who exentually received
> it or the Russ who eventually made it there’s.
> Like, there’s only one Cyrillic native?

The Russian Cyrillic tradition now has the position of, say, the American Latin tradition. The Bulgarian Cyrillic tradition could be compared to perhaps the Norwegian Latin tradition, or something. I mean, regarding influence.

You’re American, David, so you should know that you’re the most important guys out there. Same for the Russians in the Cyrillic domain :>

(Only half-kidding)

But it is true that the Russian type designers or consultants, such Vladimir Yefimov or Maxim Zhukov, are often more rigid and orthodox in their views than, say, Jovica Veljović, who is a Serbian native. There was an interesting discussion between them at the ATypI Prague conference where Jovica showed his typeface in progress that showed some unorthodox Cyrillic forms.

Jovica Veljović’s Sava Pro is worth looking at. It’s small-caps-only but shows some wonderful “brave” Cyrillic capitals.

Adam

.

Nick Shinn — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:20:15 -0800

A question, for Adam and of

hrant — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:38:21 -0800

A question, for Adam and of course others with good
insight into Cyrillic, and the perceptions thereof:

Do natives feel that the lc looks like a mish-mash of UC and lc forms?* Maybe if only as a result of exposure to Latin? Or is this perception (which I very strongly have) merely an artefact of Latin nativity (and lack of Cyrillic nativity)? And if it’s only the latter, how much does that matter? Lastly, if this sentiment is there, even mildly, has anybody done anything about it?

* Not that the two Latin cases don’t have that issue - although in Latin
there’s the real distinction of case - you don’t see much intermixing.

hhp

dezcom — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:59:38 -0800

name-calling not needed,

paul d hunt — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:29:23 -0800

name-calling not needed, let’s stick to the topic, hrant.

> theory should adapt to

hrant — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:16:30 -0800

> theory should *adapt* to observation

Nah, theory should adapt to the needs of the artiste, like
his need not to have his opinions exposed as fraud in public.

In The Official Thesaurus of Shinnistan, “flexible”,
“convenient” and “self-serving” seem to be synonyms.

—

BTW, for the record, I really LOVED “Dumb & Dumber”.
But it certainly helped that it wasn’t cast as a documentary.

hhp

>Bill You rang? Yeah, theory

William Berkson — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:08:41 -0800

>Bill

You rang? Yeah, theory should *adapt* to observation, just as in science. The eye is the final arbiter in type, not the theory—even though I think theory can be a big help. When theory becomes the—ahem—absolute monarch it can do a lot of damage.

.

Nick Shinn — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:52:58 -0800

You two should make a

hrant — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:46:25 -0800

You two should make a movie.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109686/

hhp

ROFL!!! ChrisL

dezcom — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:44:42 -0800

ROFL!!!

ChrisL

.

Nick Shinn — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:41:10 -0800

While frivolous theory can

hrant — Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:36:45 -0800

While frivolous theory can play havoc with other people’s practice.

—

BTW, are there other Cyrillic (text) fonts where
the descenders are longer than the ascenders?

hhp

Understanding cyrillic letters?

Sebastian Nagel — Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:47:43 -0800

Dear Typophiles,

is there anything that could help me understanding cyrillic font design and typography (letterforms, proportions, cultural differences, etc.) as a western-europe-guy capable of reading german, english and some dutch?

I’ve found this one:
http://store.artlebedev.com/catalog/books/design/kniga_pro_bykvy/
and I think I’ll buy it if it is available, but I won’t understand much, except for the pictures.

Or do you think I should stop thinking about it, as everything I ever could produce just can be inferior to people who “really understand”?

Thanks
Sebastian