Typophile - "Boston" Numerals? - Comments

aquatoad — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:25:35 -0800

Free Range Numerals.
Cockadoodletwo.

John Hudson — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:43:17 -0800

On the basis that three-quarters of anything implies a quarter of the same. And on the basis that the numerals in question are Ranging. I propose the name 'Quarange Numerals'.

The slogan shall be 'Quarange: it rhymes with orange'.

hrant — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:35:41 -0800

> serve us a short, practical, easy term for typographic online chat

That's a very good point. So I'll keep thinking...

hhp

rcapeto — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:26:38 -0800

Mr Hudson,

that

John Hudson — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:42:11 -0800

Rodolfo, most people call me 'John'. Some people call me 'Mr Hudson'. Those who wish to distinguish me from my brother call me 'Mr John Hudson'. Those who need to distinguish me from some other John Hudson might append '...Tom Hudson's son' or '...the type designer' or '...the Anglo-Canadian type designer'. I have a friend who has known me since we were thirteen, and she's the only person who calls me 'Johnny' with impunity.

The terminology we use to refer to things is determined by our need of precision, which typically is determined by whom we are talking to (although in my case it is also influenced by a certain, ahem, 'retentiveness'). Sure, I know what you mean by the nickname 'Didone', but will a non-typographer?

hrant — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 07:41:07 -0800

Well, the "cap-height" part we can dump - it's totally moot.
And in practice just "3/4" will work most of the time, because the lining and oldstyle versions of 3/4 numerals (please don't use "figures", it's unfocused) share more than they don't: a sensitivity to functional scale. Somebody who makes 3/4 oldstyle nums will probably make his lining style 3/4 too.

hhp

rcapeto — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:19:43 -0800

'three-quarter ranging figures' should be understood as
an abbreviation of 'three-quarter cap-height ranging figures'.

The best thing about Vox

kentlew — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:59:03 -0800

Oh, I see that Stephen edited the Whitman reference out of his post. So my last statement might seem non sequitur. Oh well, I'll let it stand.

Back to the grindstone . . .

kentlew — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 05:55:44 -0800

Sorry I've been too damn busy with projects and deadlines to join in. I was fine with "hybrid". I don't mind "Scotch" as a nickname. But I think John's terminology is the most descriptive and precise, if that's your intention. I like "three-quarter ranging".

For the record, the lining figures in Whitman are proportional, not tabular, since they were intended to work primarily in all-caps headings and such, not so much financials. It wouldn't take much to adjust them to tabular width and I'm prepared to do that if FB ever gets a request.

-- K.

John Hudson — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:31:30 -0800

The only problem with it that I see is that it implies there are full-height oldstyle numerals...

As I wrote: 'three-quarter ranging figures' should be understood as an abbreviation of 'three-quarter cap-height ranging figures'. If you want to be really precise, use the latter. Of course, making this distinction does oblige us to stop calling Bell's figures 'three-quarter figures' and start calling them 'three-quarter cap-height lining figures'.

I like 'notan' -- although I suspect we disagree about its role in a subtle but important way --, but you can keep bouma.

hrant — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:57:05 -0800

> it should be something related to its 'physical' aspect

True.

--

John, although I don't believe "ranging" is a good qualifier (too rare and ambiguous), I like the directness of your approach. Even though "3/4 oldstyle numerals" is cumbersome, it's certainly better than "hybrid", and without [near-]total historical clarity, just slapping somebody's name on it is too cavalier. The only problem with it that I see is that it implies there are full-height oldstyle numerals... But I guess there might even be such a thing (like maybe Quadraat Headliner could use them).

BTW, this is the second time you've made me change/adopt terms. The first two were "chirography" and "wedge serif". I only have two on you ("bouma" and "notan") but I'm not sure how committed to those you are. :-)

hhp

gerald_giampa — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:24:18 -0800

three-quarter ranging figs

John Hudson — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:55:04 -0800

'Scotch figures' may be confusing to many people, since there is already a Scotch classification of type, many examples of which do not include this kind of figure.

I think having what amount to nicknames for different figure styles is fine, but we should first have an accurate way to describe figures. The most important distinction to this discussion is that between lining and ranging figures. The term 'lining figures' is used so commonly for cap-height figures that we tend to forget that it is an abbreviation for 'cap-height lining figures', i.e. of figures that are a common height, aligned to the caps. It is perfectly possible to have lining figures that align to other heights, e.g. to smallcap height, even to x-height and, in the case of Bell's famous figures, 'three-quarter cap height lining figures' (commonly called simply 'three-quarter figures' -- again, an abbreviation). Just as the term 'lining' does not by itself imply anything about the height of the figures -- other than that it is common --, so the term 'ranging' doesn't necessarily imply oldstyle figures, i.e. figures that range above and below a median defined by the x-height. It is perfectly feasible to have ranging figures that range above and below a median defined by the smallcap height, or even the cap height, although the latter would look very odd. From this it should follow pretty obviously that what we're talking about in this thread, precisely, are three-quarter cap-height ranging figures. Anything else is simply a nickname (of which there might be many: Scotch, Phemister, Boston, etc.) or an abbreviation (three-quarter ranging figs).

NB: using 'lining' to mean fixed-width is simply wrong. Lining and ranging describe vertical characteristics of figures; proportional and tabular describe horizontal characteristics. The truth of this is obvious as soon as one sits down to design typefaces with multiple figure styles: cap-height lining proportional, cap-height lining tabular, x-height ranging (oldstyle) proportional, x-height ranging(oldstyle) tabular, smallcap-height lining proportional, smallcap-height lining tabular, etc.

Eduardo Omine — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:00:03 -0800

Trying to find out who first designed this kind of figures sounds great. But, I don't see why this new terminology should necessarily be tied to its history. Let's see, who first designed lining figures?

If these 'hybrid' figures need a new name, then it should be something related to its 'physical' aspect:

> Basically old-style numerals that have bodies
> notably larger than the lc x-height, to the
> point where they sometimes seem like lining
> numerals shifted up/down - sometimes they even
> look like they're floating around a centerline.

:-)

hrant — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:36:27 -0800

> Call them Scotch figures once and for all

I'm taking this pretty seriously now...

> Don't let this happen to you.

You should see how I drive.

BTW, there is also some evidence that the Ancient Egyptians (the ones before the ones we think we know* about - the ones that made the Sphinx, not the much later Pyramids) visited the "New World".

* But: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3254852.stm

Speaking of "transitional", last night I found myself revisiting a passage in Updike that Kent had once pointed out. In it (vII, p230-1) Updike says that one Hunter introduced lining figures in 1785, but then shows what he calls "transitional" figures that look like hybrids, except you can't be sure because there's no lc to compare to. The thing is, his "transitional figures" look very much like the Miller (Scotch) ones, except those weren't made before the Hunter innovation (as far as I can tell), so how can they "transition"?

--

Kevin, actually some people use "lining" to mean fixed-width (probably because such figures do enable vertical alignment across subsequent lines). BTW, it is interesting that the numerals in that #19 seem to be fixed-width. I don't remember seeing that in [early] hybrids - it seems to be an influence of lining figures (although oldstyles are actually easier to make fixed-width).

hhp

"Boston" Numerals?

hrant — Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:45:30 -0800

In De Vinne’s “The Practice of Typography: Plain Printing Types”, there’s a sample of a face that’s intriguing for its use of what are often called "hybrid" numerals:

That’s actually a collage from a more extensive setting. The font is the #19 of the Phelps, Dalton & Co., and was probably made at the end of the 19th century. This makes it the earliest “true” hubrid numeral scheme I’ve encountered - in fact by far: the most recent ones I knew of previously were in Fenway (Carter) and some of de Groot’s work. The Austin numerals (like the kind Carter has recreated in Miller) have some hybrid traits, but I find them too irregular (although in a nice way) to really qualify as a scheme.

Anyway, this might be an opportunity to find a better name for “hybrid numerals”, and I propose calling them “Boston numerals”, not just because of this Phelps design, but also because Carter is in Boston. Luc[as] loses out though. :-(

What do you guys think?

(I hope Rodolfo and Kent are listening...)

hhp