Typophile - Matching Sans & Serif faces for a magazine - Comments

Years later, but for the

eliason — Mon, 8 Oct 2007 13:25:47 -0700

Years later, but for the record, another voice on the question of Gill’s involvement in Gill Sans Ultra Bold: Albert Sperisen defended Gill from the criticism in Robert Harling’s Letter Forms and Type Designs of Eric Gill like this:

… Again, without proper checking, Harling gets a bit rough when he speaks of Gill’s “peccadilloes” in his “horrendous and blackguardly… display exploitations” of Gill Sans, the fat version known as Gill Sans Ultra Bold. The less said about this unfortunate version the better, but the fact remains that this “adaptation” was made by an apprentice under Gill’s supervision, a practice for all things made in the Gill workshop. (The source for this latter statement is a recent interview with one of Gill’s apprentices.) Gill accepted this commission from the Monotype works under duress. He put off doing anything about it for too long, until repeated demands produced what Gill labeled Sans-Elefans, a tongue-in-cheek title for a publicity letter in which Gill had no interest. This crass commercialism on the part of Monotype was no different from that of other type foundries when they “created” from overly popular typefaces, and almost all of those variations were the product of foundry “art departments.” Too, if the criticism of Gill is valid, it must be remembered that Stanley Morison was in charge at Monotype!

kentlew — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:14:20 -0800

Tiff --

There's a something to that effect in Twentieth Century Type Designers. Page 78: "He even made drawings and annotated trial proofs of some of the more outlandish variants of the Sans family, including the Kayo, or Ultra Bold, which he nicknamed Gill Sans Double-Elefans. He was a professional; and he also had a way of constructing elaborate arguments in favour of an expedient solution. Thus he convinced himself that if the trade demanded types for such ugly purposes as advertising, it ought to have ugly types."

I've also heard the sentiment phrased exactly as Hrant put it, but I can't put my finger on it in print.

Hope you feel better soon. (My wife has come down with a sudden, nasty virus and I'm hoping not to catch it; at least not until after I've met my deadlines.)

-- K.

hrant — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:29:35 -0800

I vaguely remember that it was in an Allan Haley book - not sure.

(Get well soon!)

hhp

Miss Tiffany — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:18:09 -0800

I really shouldn't be here. I'm sick as a dog, but I can't resist a Gill question. But, as my head is fogged I can't guarantee my answer. >>> That said, Gill didn't draw the heavier/iest weights of Gill Sans, the monotype office did. He referred to it as "elephans" as it looked like an elephant to him. Gill simply gave his "ok", if you can call it that, as he hated it.

Hrant, where'd you get your info, I'd be interested in it.

Nick Shinn — Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:30:52 -0800

So, he held his nose, turned the trick, and dissed the john.
Or was that just to keep his cred?
Because it sure looks like he had fun being a ho.

hrant — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:58:15 -0800

> who did design Gill Sans Ultra Bold

It was indeed Gill himself. The "Kayo" weight was commissioned for the advertising field.
Upon finishing it, he called it "an ugly type for an ugly profession". Gill was da man.

hhp

Nick Shinn — Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:52:46 -0800

>but surely you can't think that all designers who tackle creating a matching set of fonts have designed in blandness?

No, some make a point of constructing the sans and serif quite differently, eg Fedra. However, there are also quite a few where the serif is just the sans with serifs pasted on. Also, if the point of having sans and serif is to provide contrast in a layout, using a mega family that provides both reduces that effect.

Having said that, I once designed a publication using Gill Sans and Gill Serif (aka Perpetua), and it worked out nicely: Perpetua Titling and the condensed Sans were very useful, and the over-the-top Gill Sans Ultra Bold, surrounded by total Gillosity, wasn't too bizarre at all.

BTW, who did design Gill Sans Ultra Bold, surely not Eric...?

>what is your favorite "strange" mix of fonts?

I used Meta for Heads and sidebars, and Paradigm for main text, when I redesigned Cycle Canada in 1996. It's a motorcycle mag, so to accomodate the vibe of both hyper modern Japanese rocket bikes and retro-styled US hogs, I figured that would be OK.

seanglenn — Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:49:20 -0800

>Hrant, there is some advice that's appropriate here,
>such as to be wary of using mega-families that have
>both sans and serif fonts (a convenience for the
>foundry, but a recipe for blandness).

Nick, I respect what you're saying, but surely you can't think that all designers who tackle creating a matching set of fonts have designed in blandness?

The reason that I turned to the folks here is that the knowlege of what exists and is available is enormous. People have favorites (I know I'm quite fond of using 20th Century from Monotype), but I was hoping (and recieved) for a few new faces to search out and try.

So, after a bit of trial and error, I decided to go with Scala and Scala Sans, using the Shire Types for article titles and folios, and Dispatch and Stainless for subheads. The magazine is split between Lord of the Rings type articles and general news, so I wanted the humanist but slick design of Scala Sans for the general news, but the humanist serif of Scala for the LotR style stuff.

But, this brings up another point, what is your favorite "strange" mix of fonts? Mine was using Rotis Semi-Serif and Agency. It worked quite well, I even used Rotis Serif Italic for all the italic (Semi-Serif doesn't have proper italic).

keith_tam — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:13:49 -0800

How about Storm's Tyfa for the serif?

http://www.stormtype.com/tyfa.html

Nick Shinn — Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:02:49 -0800

Hrant, there is some advice that's appropriate here, such as to be wary of using mega-families that have both sans and serif fonts (a convenience for the foundry, but a recipe for blandness).

However, on the principle of "show don't tell," I would never ask for other people's suggestions as to what fonts to use, I would spend some time at the magazine rack, with specimen books, or experimenting.

Listening has its place, but when it comes to creative typography, looking and doing is the way to go.

hrant — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:35:25 -0800

So the opinions of others don't matter? Or is it that only "club members" have valid opinions...

Nick, making one's own decisions is crucially important, but so is taking advice. Certainly there aren't many Art Directors among us, so Sean should be especially cautious of taking things we say at face value, but people who spend a lot of time with fonts can certainly give decent insights. Nobody is born omniscient (in fact nobody ever becomes it either), it's a matter of constant education, of listening with an open mind.

Choosing fonts is a lot more than just personal expression - there are cultural messages involved, not to mention readability.

hhp

terminaldesign — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:06:34 -0800

Thank you Nick!

Nick Shinn — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:08:17 -0800

Sean, I wouldn't take suggestions for matching your sans and serif faces. As an art director with any sense of style, that's probably the key creative decision you will make, as the relationship defines the personality of the magazine. You should determine it yourself, based on the way you will use the faces together. And the more unusual and personal a pairing you can make, the more distinctive the personality of your magazine.

hrant — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:26:29 -0800

Considering the target is proficient readers and the articles are pretty long, I'd choose a somewhat bookish face: something with a smaller than usual (for a magazine) x-height and good craftsmanship.

Aesthetically, I would go with something somewhat darkish, angular/rigid and a touch mannered. Warnock is seeming good overall for the body face - and it's certainly complete. And maybe FB Amplitude for the titling - or maybe something by Storm.

hhp

Thomas Phinney — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:34:03 -0800

What DTP app are you using for layout?

Assuming that the license permits (or with special permission) you could get the style links and menu names for FF Thesis modified to fix the problems you cite in using the family.

Within the Adobe library, I'd think of maybe Myriad (sans) with either Warnock or Chaparral (serif).

T

Matching Sans & Serif faces for a magazine

seanglenn — Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:18:44 -0800

So, I'm in the process of redesigning the magazine I work on, which used to be two magazines, but is now just one. Both magazines use a combination of sans serif and serif, mostly used to set sidebars and other info from the running text. So far, these are the faces I've looked at because of their huge set of weights.

FF Scala & Scala Sans (nice, but...)
FF Zine Sans & Serif (a little wonky)
FF Page Sans & Serif (very nice, but some weird weight shifting in the design)

Previously, one magazine used FF TheSans & TheSerif while the other used Adobe's Celestia Antiqua & Scala Sans. I find FF Thesis a pain in the butt to work with because of the way the weights are set up, bold jumps to small caps, and the way the fonts show up in menus makes it a pain for the editor to work with the text. My editors do most of the text formatting (and there's a lot of it to be done), so FF Thesis is no longer really an option.

I'm looking for suggestions for humanist sans serifs with a matching serif. I need full families with small caps, etc. since I use all that stuff fairly regularly.

Any thoughts?

Typophile - Matching Sans &amp; Serif faces for a magazine - Comments

Years later, but for the

Matching Sans & Serif faces for a magazine

Typophile - Matching Sans & Serif faces for a magazine - Comments